Re: potential court summons for wrong train

[Seniorp]

Hi,

I had a advanced ticket booked for Manchester to Telford transport for Wales.

I got a lift to Stockport station & got on what I thought was the train as it passed through there. It transpires that I got on a cross country train that was on the same platform but due to leave 4 mins early. When the ticket inspector saw my ticket she explained I was on the wrong train & that I would have to pay a Manchester to Telford penalty fare.

She firstly wrote down all the details of the incident & then said can you pay for the ticket. I had used my bank card as ID so had the means to pay. I asked if it would make any difference if I paid now or waited for the letter to arrive as she had previously said Cross country would write to me regarding how much I owe. I asked again if it would make any difference & she said no.

So I deferred payment until the letter arrived. I have since had a letter from TIL saying they have evidence that I got on the wrong train with it a ticket & failed to then pay the standard fare. I sent a response showing the ticket I had bought explaining the error as both trains were due on the same platform & that it was a mistake but they have replied saying both them & the rail company see no reason why the matter should not proceed as previously advised, that being a potential court summons.

I feel like the ticket inspector has purposefully misled me. I don’t get how they can say I got on this train on purpose when my correct train was only due 4 mins later.

I’m unsure as to how to respond to this 2nd letter & would be grateful if anyone knows thinks what the next steps for TIL/cross country. Is this really going to go to court?

Many thanks

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Welcome to the forum.

If you have had a look at recent threads, you may have seen that there's a recent discussion about what railway staff say when dealing with matters like this. There's no clear conclusion one way or another, so I can't say that you can rely on what the train crew said to make this go away.

So putting that to one side, where do you stand with the letter that TIL have sent? There's 3 things that I would mention:
- this is their second standard letter: I expect that you have already had their first letter which you seem to have replied to
- in law, it's right. It is up to the traveller to make sure that they are on the right train.
- if you read it closely, you will see that they have not yet decided to prosecute: rather, they haven't yet ruled it out.

Taken together, what this means is that realistically you probably can't walk away from this without having to pay something (because TIL are right in law) but you may be able to resolve this without being taken to court (because TIL and the railway have not yet decided to prosecute).

So it's worth writing back, letting TIL know that you understand that you broke the rules, that you will take steps not to do it again (this can include things like checking whether the 'next train' screens on the platform say what company's train is coming next, and checking what company name it says on the side of the train) and that you are willing to cover the train fare and the cost of the investigation. There's a good chance (but no guarantee) that TIL will agree to settle.

 

[mikeg]

Interesting a penalty fare was mentioned when XC do not operate a penalty fare scheme

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi,

I had a advanced ticket booked for Manchester to Telford transport for wales. I got a lift to Stockport station & got on what I thought was the train as it passed through there. It transpires that I got on a cross country trian that was on the same platform but due to leave 4 mins early. When the ticket inspector saw my ticket she explained I was on the wrong train & that I would have to pay a Manchester to Telford penalty fare. She firstly wrote down all the details of the incident & then said can you pay for the ticket. I had used my bank card as ID so had the means to pay. I asked if it would make any difference if I paid now or waited for the letter to arrive as she had previously said Cross country would write to me regarding how much I owe. I asked again if it would make any difference & she said no. So I deferred payment until the letter arrived. I have since had a letter from TIL saying they have evidence that I got on the wrong train withiit a ticket & failed to then pay the standard fare. I sent a response showing the ticket I had bought explaining the error as both trains were due on the same platform & that it was a mistake but they have replied saying both them & the rail company see no reason why the matter should not proceed as previously advised, that being a potential court summons.
I feel like the ticket inspector has purposefully misled me. I don’t get how they can say I got on this train on purpose when my correct trian was only due 4 mins later. I’m unsure as to how to respond to this 2nd letter & would be grateful if anyone knows thinks what the next steps for TIL/cross country. Is this really going to go to court?

many thanks

Following @Fawkes Cat v sound advice make sure you impress upon them you had no intention of evading a fare by sending a copy of the ticket you did have to them, and by impressing on them you got on the wrong train in error. Do this again if you said it all last time they wrote.

Take up the issue of what the on board member of staff said with Cross Country customer services when this is resolved and ask them for compensatory payment because their staff gave you information that led you to pay a financial penalty (ie more money than if they had sold you a ticket then and there on board if they genuinely offered to do so - which I am a bit skeptical about to be honest as we have had other cases on here with Cross Country where this has been refused - but I fully appreciate you may not have understood what the staff were saying to you if it was not explained clearly). You will need to specify the train concerned and date if you write to customer services about this.

In case you don't know already the reason behind this situation is that when you but a more flexible ticket like an Off Peak or Anytime all the train companies that operate trains on the route get a share of what you paid, since you can get on any/most of their trains. If you buy a ticket called an 'Advance' that is limited to a specific train the company that operates that trains gets 100% of what you paid - so in the situation you were in Cross Country have not been paid anything by you for travelling on their train. You have sacrificed flexibility for a discount as it were - so as you have found out you have to then take extra care that you don't get on the wrong train by mistake as it can be treated as if you have no ticket at all.

Good luck with sorting this. You may have to be prepared to pay the settlement they ask for and chalk it up to experience.

Remember to claim Delay - Repay for late trains in future as away of 'getting your money back'...

 

[221129]

Interesting a penalty fare was mentioned when XC do not operate a penalty fare scheme

I suspect the OP is mistaken.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Interesting a penalty fare was mentioned when XC do not operate a penalty fare scheme

OP then also mentions a standard fare. Think this is something like £47.80 for an Anytime Single from Stockport to Telford, which may seem like a penalty fare if you have to pay in full again when compared with the price of a lower tier "Route AP TFW Only" Advance ticket.

P.S. Any other issues arising as regards the OP boarding at Stockport on a Manchester ->Telford advance ticket?

 

[221129]

OP then also mentions a standard fare. Think this is something like £47.80 for an Anytime Single from Stockport to Telford, which may seem like a penalty fare compared with the price of a lower tier "Route AP TFW Only" Advance ticket.

P.S. Any other issues arising as regards the OP boarding at Stockport on a Manchester ->Telford advance ticket?

The advance ticket wouldn't have technically been valid anyway by boarding at Stockport.

 

[Seniorp]

Welcome to the forum.

If you have had a look at recent threads, you may have seen that there's a recent discussion about what railway staff say when dealing with matters like this. There's no clear conclusion one way or another, so I can't say that you can rely on what the train crew said to make this go away.

So putting that to one side, where do you stand with the letter that TIL have sent? There's 3 things that I would mention:
- this is their second standard letter: I expect that you have already had their first letter which you seem to have replied to
- in law, it's right. It is up to the traveller to make sure that they are on the right train.
- if you read it closely, you will see that they have not yet decided to prosecute: rather, they haven't yet ruled it out.

Taken together, what this means is that realistically you probably can't walk away from this without having to pay something (because TIL are right in law) but you may be able to resolve this without being taken to court (because TIL and the railway have not yet decided to prosecute).

So it's worth writing back, letting TIL know that you understand that you broke the rules, that you will take steps not to do it again (this can include things like checking whether the 'next train' screens on the platform say what company's train is coming next, and checking what company name it says on the side of the train) and that you are willing to cover the train fare and the cost of the investigation. There's a good chance (but no guarantee) that TIL will agree to settle.

Really appreciate the feedback. I will attach again my journey along with the return so as to show I really did intend on that journey along with writing what you said at the end. Many thanks

Following @Fawkes Cat v sound advice make sure you impress upon them you had no intention of evading a fare by sending a copy of the ticket you did have to them, and by impressing on them you got on the wrong train in error. Do this again if you said it all last time they wrote.

Take up the issue of what the on board member of staff said with Cross Country customer services when this is resolved and ask them for compensatory payment because their staff gave you information that led you to pay a financial penalty (ie more money than if they had sold you a ticket then and there on board if they genuinely offered to do so - which I am a bit skeptical about to be honest as we have had other cases on here with Cross Country where this has been refused - but I fully appreciate you may not have understood what the staff were saying to you if it was not explained clearly). You will need to specify the train concerned and date if you write to customer services about this.

In case you don't know already the reason behind this situation is that when you but a more flexible ticket like an Off Peak or Anytime all the train companies that operate trains on the route get a share of what you paid, since you can get on any/most of their trains. If you buy a ticket called an 'Advance' that is limited to a specific train the company that operates that trains gets 100% of what you paid - so in the situation you were in Cross Country have not been paid anything by you for travelling on their train. You have sacrificed flexibility for a discount as it were - so as you have found out you have to then take extra care that you don't get on the wrong train by mistake as it can be treated as if you have no ticket at all.

Good luck with sorting this. You may have to be prepared to pay the settlement they ask for and chalk it up to experience.

Remember to claim Delay - Repay for late trains in future as away of 'getting your money back'...

I’ll add your feedback also. Really appreciate this

 

[Watershed]

The advance ticket wouldn't have technically been valid anyway by boarding at Stockport.

Although not 'invalid' in the sense that it leaves you liable to be prosecuted, only that it requires payment of an excess fare for breaking your journey where not permitted to do so.

Either way, unless all ticket facilities at Stockport happened to be out of order when the OP boarded, they are guilty of an offence under Byelaw 18. They are best off asking TIL to settle out of court, and to continue to try and do so even if TIL initially refuse.

If TIL absolutely refuse to settle, OP should of course consider whether they wish to defend themselves against a charge under RoRA, as they would not be guilty of that offence if they had made a genuine mistake and were willing to pay the correct fare.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One of the issues here, though, is that the staff probably reported them as refusing to pay the correct fare on the spot. And then it's one word against another.

This is a bit like staff giving verbal permission to board trains they have no right to give. If a passenger asks what will happen if they don't pay, it should be made clear that that would be evidence for prosecution and a possible criminal record, not say it would be OK. This should ideally be given in writing so it's correct - I'm sure I recall an RPI posting on here that their TOC does do that.

 

[Seniorp]

One of the issues here, though, is that the staff probably reported them as refusing to pay the correct fare on the spot. And then it's one word against another.

This is a bit like staff giving verbal permission to board trains they have no right to give. If a passenger asks what will happen if they don't pay, it should be made clear that that would be evidence for prosecution and a possible criminal record, not say it would be OK. This should ideally be given in writing so it's correct - I'm sure I recall an RPI posting on here that their TOC does do that.

This is my biggest worry now. I felt from the get go she wanted to made a big deal out of it. She honestly made out there was no difference in paying now or paying later. I even had my bank card out ready to pay.

I suspect the OP is mistaken.

Perhaps so

 

[WesternLancer]

This is my biggest worry now. I felt from the get go she wanted to made a big deal out of it. She honestly made out there was no difference in paying now or paying later. I even had my bank card out ready to pay.


Perhaps so

Keep us posted as things develop. If you want help / advice / feedback on your written response to them feel free to post your draft up. People often do that if they want any views on it.

Just to check - have they already written to you once and have you replied to that already?

 

[Seniorp]

Keep us posted as things develop. If you want help / advice / feedback on your written response to them feel free to post your draft up. People often do that if they want any views on it.

Just to check - have they already written to you once and have you replied to that already?

Absolutely. Many thanks. I had a chat with a guy at Piccadilly train station who used to do the fine bits & he says that it’ll not go to court unless I don’t pay. I basically need to let it go & admit guilt so to speak to that a fine can be issues. The advice marries that you’ve all given with that so I’ll write a mia culpa as well as add again me outward journey ticket along with this time my inward from Telford to Manchester that was for the next day. I don’t care about the fine now it’s court that scares the be-jeepers out of me

 

[WesternLancer]

Absolutely. Many thanks. I had a chat with a guy at Piccadilly train station who used to do the fine bits & he says that it’ll not go to court unless I don’t pay. I basically need to let it go & admit guilt so to speak to that a fine can be issues. The advice marries that you’ve all given with that so I’ll write a mia culpa as well as add again me outward journey ticket along with this time my inward from Telford to Manchester that was for the next day. I don’t care about the fine now it’s court that scares the be-jeepers out of me

Just to re-assure - v unlikely that this will go to court if you 'co-operate' ie respond to XC / TIL - but don't 'admit guilt' so to speak (I know you didn't mean it as such and were using it as shorthand) - focus on it being genuine mistake made by you and that you only later understood your ticket not being valid on the train you boarded and that you wish to pay the correct fare owed (as offered when on board the train) etc. Don't mention getting on at Stockport either when you held an Advance ticket that commenced at Manchester (for avoidance of doubt Advance Tickets permit no variation from the dates / times of train / origins / destinations stated on them).

 

[Haywain]

One of the issues here, though, is that the staff probably reported them as refusing to pay the correct fare on the spot. And then it's one word against another.

Many RPIs do not sell tickets, and I wonder if the question asked was whether the OP was in a position to pay to establish whether payment could have been made if buying had been an option available (similar to the question often used at stations: "would you have paid if you hadn't been stopped").

 

[221129]

Don't mention getting on at Stockport either when you held an Advance ticket that commenced at Manchester

Extremely poor advice given that they will almost certainly where the OP boarded. Especially when mentioning the fact that the original train was 4 mins behind them. Lying won't help.

but don't 'admit guilt'

Then don't expect a settlement.

 

[Seniorp]

I’ve already said I got on at Stockport & I know what the other post meant by guilt. I didn’t do it on purpose but I clearly am liable for a fine which I’ll happily pay due to my error

 

[WesternLancer]

Extremely poor advice given that they will almost certainly where the OP boarded. Especially when mentioning the fact that the original train was 4 mins behind them. Lying won't help.


Then don't expect a settlement.

Point taken. Not mentioning something (which is my advice - at no point did I suggest telling a lie) is not the same as lying of course, but I see the OP has already been clear about where they boarded the train.

Then don't expect a settlement.

Perhaps the industry could move away from treating mistakes as grounds for threats of criminal actions? Or in this case staff (allegedly) stating that courses of action would make no difference when the passenger later finds it makes a very real difference - viz they have been threatened with a criminal sanction. Just my own personal views of course.

 

[Seniorp]

Many RPIs do not sell tickets, and I wonder if the question asked was whether the OP was in a position to pay to establish whether payment could have been made if buying had been an option available (similar to the question often used at stations: "would you have paid if you hadn't been stopped").

I was in a position to pay & was going to but I asked if it would make any difference if I waited for the letter then pay. It was suggested I was going to receive a letter to make payment that’s all. It was appalling advice & feel it was done on purpose

 

[WesternLancer]

I was in a position to pay & was going to but I asked if it would make any difference if I waited for the letter then pay. It was suggested I was going to receive a letter to make payment that’s all. It was appalling advice & feel it was done on purpose

Thread here on this theme. I think staff do a tricky job when it comes to fares, both with deliberate evaders and mistakes, but there is clearly an issue

Hypothetical: details taken but the RPI said everything would be fine

Our text today is taken from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/given-a-fine-for-fare-evasion-even-though-the-employee-told-me-it-was-just-a-written-warning.224364/ (A ticketing error was made and the person stopped) I profusely apologised and the worker told me there was a penalty fare of...

www.railforums.co.uk

The railway does not make it easy for many passengers or indeed staff - 3 or 4 weeks ago i was on a 2 carriage long distance East Mids Railways train and I think the guard had to speak to at least 6 people in a distance I could hear from my seat who had some sort of ticket irregularity (there were about 30 people in the carriage altogether so a high %). This must become tiresome. He was being very diplomatic with the passengers but it was clear to me from what I heard that some were genuine errors, others people with tickets for different trains that were not valid just trying to 'wing it' etc.

The industry desperately needs a new approach on ticketing in my view - but that's for a different thread.

 

[AlbertBeale]

I’ve already said I got on at Stockport & I know what the other post meant by guilt. I didn’t do it on purpose but I clearly am liable for a fine which I’ll happily pay due to my error

Just to be clear, to avoid confusion - if you agree a settlement (such as paying the fare they want plus admin costs / penalty on top or whatever), then you're not paying a fine. A fine is what a court might impose if you admit guilt or are found guilty. Anything you pay to the rail company in lieu of going to court is precisely a payment ("out of court settlement") to avoid the risk of a fine.

 

[robbeech]

One of the issues here, though, is that the staff probably reported them as refusing to pay the correct fare on the spot. And then it's one word against another.

This is a bit like staff giving verbal permission to board trains they have no right to give. If a passenger asks what will happen if they don't pay, it should be made clear that that would be evidence for prosecution and a possible criminal record, not say it would be OK. This should ideally be given in writing so it's correct - I'm sure I recall an RPI posting on here that their TOC does do that.

It’s not one word against the other. It’s the word of the railway against a passenger. The word of the railway has orders of magnitude more weight, whether we like it or not, whether it is fair and just or not.

Point taken. Not mentioning something (which is my advice - at no point did I suggest telling a lie) is not the same as lying of course, but I see the OP has already been clear about where they boarded the train.


Perhaps the industry could move away from treating mistakes as grounds for threats of criminal actions? Or in this case staff (allegedly) stating that courses of action would make no difference when the passenger later finds it makes a very real difference - viz they have been threatened with a criminal sanction. Just my own personal views of course.

We often see this ‘request’ but by increasing leniency on genuine mistakes you open the system up to abuse. Staff telling blatant lies (which is the accusation here although we have no proof either way) is becoming a regular feature of this section of the forum. The trouble with that is it may tempt people into manipulating their own stories to fit this in.

I was in a position to pay & was going to but I asked if it would make any difference if I waited for the letter then pay. It was suggested I was going to receive a letter to make payment that’s all. It was appalling advice & feel it was done on purpose

Indeed as I mention above this type of staff behaviour seems to be increasing.
There are a few possible reasons.

• They don’t actually understand the rules themselves. It’s entirely possible staff don’t actually know what happens when they go through that process.
• They don’t want the situation to escalate so they lie to minimise the chances of the passenger becoming abusive and violent.
• They find it amusing knowing that they can lie to you, essentially meaning you’ll end up paying hundreds of pounds.
• They have targets to reach and by doing so the interaction will tick a box to step them closer to their monthly goal. (There is evidence that this sort of thing happens elsewhere on the network, I’m sure you’ll understand why it’s heavily denied).

Overall due to the immense power and authority the railway has and its unregulated nature there will be nothing you can do to reduce any penalty you receive here, not least because you were in the wrong for multiple reasons on the day.

​

 

[1955LR]

I am finding this thread very interesting as the OP experience is totally at odds to mine when I got on the wrong train a few years ago at Milton Keynes when Virgin was a TOC . . I was travelling from Bletchley to Hereford on a Sunday Via Milton Keynes (MKC) and Birmingham New street ( BHM) with an Any off-peak ticket, valid only on travel via Leamington Spa. I might add that up to then I rarely used rail travel and was unfamiliar with routing or indeed the various conditions of travel. When I arrived at MKC a Virgin train was approaching , destination Manchester. I wondered if it went via BHM so asked a Virgin staff member on the platform . He gave me a long winded answer which I took to mean yes, so jumped on just as the doors were closing & sat down. I was welcomed with an introductory announcement that this was the Manchester train, next stop Stockport! As the ticket inspector approached I told him that I thought I was on the wrong train and he said I know you are . I was surprised as he hadn't checked my Ticket. He explained the staff member on the platform had told his as the train left. He just marked my ticket with a squiggle & advised me to get of at Stockport and speak to the staff there . This I did and was advised that the best option for me was to get the next train to Crewe and then the Cardiff train to Hereford. I enquired about an extra payment and was said I should be OK. No check on the train to Crewe and when approached on the Cardiff train by the ticket inspector I explained again what had happened , and was told it happens quite often & not worry about it. I arrived at Hereford only 20 mins later than if I had taken my correct train. In all cases the staff were understanding and put me at ease. I am not sure they had acted as per the book , but in my case it encouraged me to use rail travel , not put me off.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Virgin certainly very rarely prosecuted, though selling an Anytime Single was a penalty in itself. It wasn't part of their "personality" to do so.

 

[miklcct]

On a certain day of the past, I, and a group of friends, travelled from Bournemouth to Southampton with individually-purchased advance tickets on the same train.

We boarded the train at platform 1, but my friend went late on the bus, so in this case we advised her to buy a new ticket if she really got late. At the departure time, she texted us that she boarded the train, so we told her to come to the coach that we were in. However, she didn't appear. It was only by then she knew that she boarded a wrong train (specifically, a train in the opposite direction departing at the same time).

The staff exercised discretion over this genuine mistake and allowed her to turn back on the next train at Branksome to Southampton though without buying a new ticket.

 

[WesternLancer]

On a certain day of the past, I, and a group of friends, travelled from Bournemouth to Southampton with individually-purchased advance tickets on the same train.

We boarded the train at platform 1, but my friend went late on the bus, so in this case we advised her to buy a new ticket if she really got late. At the departure time, she texted us that she boarded the train, so we told her to come to the coach that we were in. However, she didn't appear. It was only by then she knew that she boarded a wrong train (specifically, a train in the opposite direction departing at the same time).

The staff exercised discretion over this genuine mistake and allowed her to turn back on the next train at Branksome to Southampton though without buying a new ticket.

Was it a 'ticket bought in advance' or an 'Advance' ticket. Very different things.

 

[Haywain]

The staff exercised discretion over this genuine mistake and allowed her to turn back on the next train at Branksome to Southampton though without buying a new ticket.

It is much easier to see that a genuine error has been made when someone is travelling in completely the wrong direction (or hurtling past their intended stop) at the right time. As such, they are in most cases permitted to travel without being charged extra as they are not gaining any advantage.

 

[miklcct]

Was it a 'ticket bought in advance' or an 'Advance' ticket. Very different things.

They were advance tickets, which were only valid on the train we intended to take. We discussed together which ticket we were going to buy beforehand.

 

[js1000]

Hi,

I had a advanced ticket booked for Manchester to Telford transport for wales. I got a lift to Stockport station & got on what I thought was the train as it passed through there. It transpires that I got on a cross country trian that was on the same platform but due to leave 4 mins early. When the ticket inspector saw my ticket she explained I was on the wrong train & that I would have to pay a Manchester to Telford penalty fare. She firstly wrote down all the details of the incident & then said can you pay for the ticket. I had used my bank card as ID so had the means to pay. I asked if it would make any difference if I paid now or waited for the letter to arrive as she had previously said Cross country would write to me regarding how much I owe. I asked again if it would make any difference & she said no. So I deferred payment until the letter arrived. I have since had a letter from TIL saying they have evidence that I got on the wrong train withiit a ticket & failed to then pay the standard fare. I sent a response showing the ticket I had bought explaining the error as both trains were due on the same platform & that it was a mistake but they have replied saying both them & the rail company see no reason why the matter should not proceed as previously advised, that being a potential court summons.
I feel like the ticket inspector has purposefully misled me. I don’t get how they can say I got on this train on purpose when my correct trian was only due 4 mins later. I’m unsure as to how to respond to this 2nd letter & would be grateful if anyone knows thinks what the next steps for TIL/cross country. Is this really going to go to court?

many thanks

I'm really confused.

The letter states "that you failed to pay the appropriate fare due in accordance with the rules in force. This left the inspector no alternative but to report the incident."

But you say you asked whether deferring payment would make any difference and she said no?

 

[island]

I'm really confused.

The letter states "that you failed to pay the appropriate fare due in accordance with the rules in force. This left the inspector no alternative but to report the incident."

But you say you asked whether deferring payment would make any difference and she said no?

As with everything, there's three sides to every story – passenger's side, guard's side, and what really happened.