Reading To Elephant & Castle

[Chrisgr31]

It appears that for £283.20 you can get a flexi season ticket from Reading to Elephant & Castle, a siginfi saving on Reading to London Terminals. It states “Valid only for travel via (changing trains or passing through) London Terminals, but not valid on Underground services.”

What does this mean? It appears you are allowed to go via Paddington and Crossrail. Can you break you journey and exit/enter at any Crossrail station?

 

[cactustwirly]

It appears that for £283.20 you can get a flexi season ticket from Reading to Elephant & Castle, a siginfi saving on Reading to London Terminals. It states “Valid only for travel via (changing trains or passing through) London Terminals, but not valid on Underground services.”

What does this mean? It appears you are allowed to go via Paddington and Crossrail. Can you break you journey and exit/enter at any Crossrail station?

If it doesn't have a Maltese cross then it's not valid.

However I'm not sure how you're supposed to get to E&C without using the underground?

 

[Class800]

It's physically possible to get from Reading to E&C without the Underground but it's not an obvious route - not sure it's even permitted?

Reading - Basingstoke - Waterloo - Waterloo East - London Bridge - Blackfriars - Elephant and Castle

 

[skyhigh]

However I'm not sure how you're supposed to get to E&C without using the underground?

Reading - Paddington (GWR), Paddington - Farringdon (Elizabeth Line), Farringdon - Elephant & Castle?

Does Elizabeth Line count as the Underground?

 

[JonathanH]

Reading - Paddington (GWR), Paddington - Farringdon (Elizabeth Line), Farringdon - Elephant & Castle?

Does Elizabeth Line count as the Underground?

It won't be valid via the Elizabeth Line.

Should be Reading - Staines - Waterloo - <walk> - Blackfriars - Elephant & Castle.

 

[cactustwirly]

Reading - Paddington (GWR), Paddington - Farringdon (Elizabeth Line), Farringdon - Elephant & Castle?

Does Elizabeth Line count as the Underground?

That is debatable, as far as TfL are concerned yes it is...
But it is technically a NR service, so the NR rules around ticket validity would apply...

 

[Class800]

It won't be valid via the Elizabeth Line.

Should be Reading - Staines - Waterloo - <walk> - Blackfriars - Elephant & Castle.

That makes more sense than via Basingstoke! I got the Blackfriars bit right

 

[JonathanH]

Flow Origin​	Q086​
Cluster​	0403 READING/R WEST​	0996 READING GREEN PK​	3154 TILEHURST​	​
Flow Destination​	Q030​
Cluster​	5066 HERNE HILL​	5086 WEST DULWICH​	5372 WANDSWORTH ROAD​	5425 SOUTH BERMONDSEY​
	5068 NUNHEAD​	5246 ELEPHANT & CSTLE​	5421 DENMARK HILL​	5429 NORTH DULWICH​
	5081 BRIXTON​	5301 CLAPHAM HIGH ST​	5423 PECKHAM RYE​	​
	5082 LOUGHBOROUGH JN​	5358 EAST DULWICH​	5424 QUEENS RD PECKHM​

Above are the clusters involved. For most of the stations in the cluster, the change would be at Waterloo - Waterloo East - London Bridge (or possibly at Clapham Junction although that technically doesn't involve going via London), although Herne Hill could be reached via Victoria.

Basically it is set by South Western Railway and some of the stations are easier to reach than others, but the fare needs to work for all of the stations in the cluster. Elephant & Castle could also be reached changing at Waterloo East, London Bridge and Blackfriars but realistically no one is going to do that.

I don't think it is intended in any way for travel into Paddington. Perhaps routing it via Ascot would make more sense than "London Not Underground" given the London Overground route from Clapham Junction.

 

[cactustwirly]

Flow Origin​	Q086​
Cluster​	0403 READING/R WEST​	0996 READING GREEN PK​	3154 TILEHURST​	​
Flow Destination​	Q030​
Cluster​	5066 HERNE HILL​	5086 WEST DULWICH​	5372 WANDSWORTH ROAD​	5425 SOUTH BERMONDSEY​
	5068 NUNHEAD​	5246 ELEPHANT & CSTLE​	5421 DENMARK HILL​	5429 NORTH DULWICH​
	5081 BRIXTON​	5301 CLAPHAM HIGH ST​	5423 PECKHAM RYE​	​
	5082 LOUGHBOROUGH JN​	5358 EAST DULWICH​	5424 QUEENS RD PECKHM​

Above are the clusters involved. For most of the stations in the cluster, the change would be at Waterloo - Waterloo East - London Bridge (or possibly at Clapham Junction although that technically doesn't involve going via London), although Herne Hill could be reached via Victoria.

Basically it is set by South Western Railway and some of the stations are easier to reach than others, but the fare needs to work for all of the stations in the cluster.

The fare setter is irrelevant in terms of the validity.
Not sure how the clusters help here unless they are the routing points for this fare?

 

[JonathanH]

The fare setter is irrelevant in terms of the validity.
Not sure how the clusters help here unless they are the routing points for this fare?

I agree on the first point - the fare setter is irrelevant to the routeing available, but it does show who will make any decisions about changes.

On the second point, the cluster illustrates which other stations are being taken into account when the fare is set. Some of those stations are easier to reach from Reading than others given the number of changes required to reach Elephant & Castle is more than, for example, Wandsworth Road.

 

[miklcct]

I would say that this is a loophole fare, which isn't supposed to be valid via Paddington but it is actually valid now because of the Elizabeth line.

Similar loopholes (tickets starting at Reading with route "London Not Underground" set by South Western Railway) have already been posted and identified before the opening of Elizabeth line, but the route description hasn't been changed yet.

 

[swt_passenger]

I don't think it is intended in any way for travel into Paddington. Perhaps routing it via Ascot would make more sense than "London Not Underground" given the London Overground route from Clapham Junction.

Probably one of many flows where the completion of Crossrail has caught the fares managers totally by surprise. Hardly unexpected IMHO.

 

[JonathanH]

It appears that for £283.20 you can get a flexi season ticket from Reading to Elephant & Castle, a siginfi saving on Reading to London Terminals. It states “Valid only for travel via (changing trains or passing through) London Terminals, but not valid on Underground services.”

It does seem odd that there isn't a 'via Staines' Flexi Season for Reading to London Terminals, but equally there doesn't appear to be a Seven Day Season either.

There is a similar Flexi-Season routed London not Underground from Reading to Deptford for £298.40.

 

[cactustwirly]

I agree on the first point - the fare setter is irrelevant to the routeing available, but it does show who will make any decisions about changes.

On the second point, the cluster illustrates which other stations are being taken into account when the fare is set. Some of those stations are easier to reach from Reading than others given the number of changes required to reach Elephant & Castle is more than, for example, Wandsworth Road.

The routing points are Denmark Hill, Herne Hill and Blackfriars

 

[Watershed]

It appears that for £283.20 you can get a flexi season ticket from Reading to Elephant & Castle, a siginfi saving on Reading to London Terminals. It states “Valid only for travel via (changing trains or passing through) London Terminals, but not valid on Underground services.”

What does this mean? It appears you are allowed to go via Paddington and Crossrail. Can you break you journey and exit/enter at any Crossrail station?

It is indeed valid via Paddington and Crossrail by virtue of that being the shortest route - though probably not for much longer now that you've created a thread here about it!

Break of journey is permitted along all permitted routes for season tickets, including Flexi Seasons. And as the validity via Farringdon arises under the shortest route principle, negative easements in the Routeing Guide cannot affect this. They will have to re-route the ticket.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Ok so ultimately you can go Reading - Waterloo and then not do the Waterloo - Elephant bit?

It is indeed valid via Paddington and Crossrail by virtue of that being the shortest route - though probably not for much longer now that you've created a thread here about it!

Can I delete the thread?

Although going via Waterloo is not too much of a hardship

 

[Watershed]

If it doesn't have a Maltese cross then it's not valid.

However I'm not sure how you're supposed to get to E&C without using the underground?

There is no requirement for a ticket to have a Maltese cross in order for it to be valid to cross London. For example, there are tickets intended for use through the Thameslink Core which are explicitly routed "Not Underground" (and which have no Maltese cross).

It won't be valid via the Elizabeth Line.

Should be Reading - Staines - Waterloo - <walk> - Blackfriars - Elephant & Castle.

It won't be intended to be valid on the Elizabeth line, but TfL's stated policy has no legal weight, as there is nothing in the NRCoT creating special rules for the EL Core.

That being said, good luck breaking your journey at somewhere like Farringdon!

Can I delete the thread?

You can report one of your posts and ask the moderators to do so.

 

[JB_B]

It is indeed valid via Paddington and Crossrail by virtue of that being the shortest route - though probably not for much longer now that you've created a thread here about it!

Can you say how you calculated the distance?

 

[Watershed]

Can you say how you calculated the distance?

I looked at what RJIS reckons the shortest route is, excluded mileages that involved the Underground or sections of route without a passenger service (e.g. Acton Main Line to Kensington Olympia) and compared this with the mileage via Farringdon (39.3 Reading to Farringdon EL, 1.9 Farringdon TL to Elephant & Castle, so 41.2 total).

Going via Staines can't possibly be the shortest route, being as it's 43.4 miles as far as Waterloo alone.

 

[JB_B]

I think that quite probably is the shortest route by rail over which a regular service operates but my guess would be that journey planners won't validate this route (for route:Not Underground tickets on a shortest route basis) because no distances are defined in the routeing guide data for the Elizabeth Line between Paddington and Liverpool street and the only relevant fixed links out of Paddington are defined for Tube journeys.

Are Elizabeth line core distances given in the NRTT? (I don't know - they're not in the latest eNRT mileage table) When/if they are added then I suppose you could generate a public-facing routeing guide defence of the route but that's always going to be trickier to argue than a relevant itinerary from a journey planner.

 

[SargeNpton]

The route for the Reading-Elephant & Castle fare should have an "exclude Slough" marker in it, to force the journey via SWR services into Waterloo.

 

[Watershed]

I think that quite probably is the shortest route by rail over which a regular service operates but my guess would be that journey planners won't validate this route (for route:Not Underground tickets on a shortest route basis) because no distances are defined in the routeing guide data for the Elizabeth Line between Paddington and Liverpool street and the only relevant fixed links out of Paddington are defined for Tube journeys.

Are Elizabeth line core distances given in the NRTT? (I don't know - they're not in the latest eNRT mileage table) When/if they are added then I suppose you could generate a public-facing routeing guide defence of the route but that's always going to be trickier to argue than a relevant itinerary from a journey planner.

The NRCoT does not specify the source using which the shortest route is to be determined. Accordingly, it would seem perfectly legitimate to use any accurate source. There are open data sources available which enable one to ascertain Elizabeth Line mileages, even though they're not in the NRTT or eNRT.

The lack of an itinerary to validate the route is not really going to change things significantly - you almost certainly wouldn't be let through EL Core barrier lines, regardless of what you produced. And if you later enter correspondence with MTR/TfL, it'd be interesting to see them try and suggest a shorter route...

 

[JB_B]

The NRCoT does not specify the source using which the shortest route is to be determined. Accordingly, it would seem perfectly legitimate to use any accurate source. There are open data sources available which enable one to ascertain Elizabeth Line mileages, even though they're not in the NRTT or eNRT.

The lack of an itinerary to validate the route is not really going to change things significantly - you almost certainly wouldn't be let through EL Core barrier lines, regardless of what you produced. And if you later enter correspondence with MTR/TfL, it'd be interesting to see them try and suggest a shorter route...

I think that's not unreasonable ( given that NRCoT 13.1.2 ostensibly gives a free-standing shortest route validity - outwith RG which specifies NRTT mileages for shortest routes.)

Obviously it's important that anyone thinking of using these tickets in this way should be aware that they'll probably have a fight on their hands and recognize that they won't have the comfort of having an itinerary to back them up. It's not something I'd risk myself.

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

Are Elizabeth line core distances given in the NRTT? (I don't know - they're not in the latest eNRT mileage table) When/if they are added then I suppose you could generate a public-facing routeing guide defence of the route but that's always going to be trickier to argue than a relevant itinerary from a journey planner.

They've been left out in an attempt to keep the new part of the Elizabeth line outside the scope of the routeing guide, or at least to stop journey planners offering it for a normal point-to-point fare. We've been round this before but there will always be this asymmetry - we are open to trouble for not following the rules to the letter, but the railway has bent the rules to make, of the Elizabeth line, a distinct charging model that makes sense to them given the tight integration with the Underground and is at least easily understandable.

If all fares were zonal on the same scale, and so former London Terminals fares were to zone 1 instead, things would be a lot simpler.

 

[JonathanH]

The route for the Reading-Elephant & Castle fare should have an "exclude Slough" marker in it, to force the journey via SWR services into Waterloo.

...or just be routed via Ascot, which would have the same effect, and be more explicit on the face of the ticket's conditions.

If all fares were zonal on the same scale, and so former London Terminals fares were to zone 1 instead, things would be a lot simpler.

That isn't going to happen because of the 'mixed mode' premium. Fares are zonal, but on different scales when they involve NR and TfL, which seems perfectly reasonable.

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

Fares are zonal, but on different scales when they involve NR and TfL, which seems perfectly reasonable

Interesting - I don't see any justification for it at all, really. More than thirty years after the withdrawal of the Capitalcard, we still haven't completely removed the difference between pretty much identical modes that happen to be controlled by different organisations

 

[mangyiscute]

I think the day returns for the Waterloo line are routed via Staines which does allow you to travel via Windsor then up to Slough and into Reading - dunno how the inspector on the GWR service would see it though

 

[JonathanH]

I think the day returns for the Waterloo line are routed via Staines which does allow you to travel via Windsor then up to Slough and into Reading - dunno how the inspector on the GWR service would see it though

Not sure it does allow travel across Windsor. Aren't there routeing guide easements that prevent cross Windsor travel for all except selected local journeys?

 

[mangyiscute]

Not sure it does allow travel across Windsor. Aren't there routeing guide easements that prevent cross Windsor travel for all except selected local journeys?

on trainsplit if you do Reading to Waterloo via Windsor & Eton Riverside it offers this route for the via Staines fare, and i remember checking NRE too

 

[JB_B]

Not sure it does allow travel across Windsor. Aren't there routeing guide easements that prevent cross Windsor travel for all except selected local journeys?

I don't think that there's any relevant easement.

NRE will offer a route:Via Staines ticket for Waterloo-Reading journeys via Windsor and Slough. It's not a mapped route and the rail distance comes to just under 4 miles longer that the shortest route by rail (which journey planners will calculate as running via the fictional link between Kensington Olympia-Acton Main Line.) My guess would be that it's offered because the planner is actually using a >3m margin.