Reading to Gatwick once a week

[tokinbear]

Wondering if anyone can give me some ticketing advice, I'm starting a new Job where I will mainly be working in central London, but once a week I will be traveling to Gatwick airport. I will be buying a monthly season ticket to London terminals from Reading. Whats the most cost effective way to travel to Gatwick once a week, hopefully being able to use my season ticket for some of the journey. Or am I going to just have to buy a extra ticket? Thank you

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Wondering if anyone can give me some ticketing advice, I'm starting a new Job where I will mainly be working in central London, but once a week I will be traveling to Gatwick airport. I will be buying a monthly season ticket to London terminals from Reading. Whats the most cost effective way to travel to Gatwick once a week, hopefully being able to use my season ticket for some of the journey. Or am I going to just have to buy a extra ticket? Thank you

If you will have a season ticket from Reading to London Terminals (as opposed to a certain number of the London Zones), then, if you use the direct train that goes from Reading to Gatwick Airport via Gomshall and Dorking Deepdene, you are covered as far as Wokingham, as your season ticket is valid to Waterloo (and other London Termini) on the SWR route that way.

However, a ticket from Wokingham isn't much cheaper than one from Reading. In fact, a ticket from Wokingham is still £25.10 for an Anytime Day Return - this is relatively speaking so expensive that it is almost cheaper, whether or not you use the Underground or any other trains etc. within the London Zones, to get your season ticket to London Zones 1-6. This is valid along the shortest route from Reading to any station that forms the boundary of Zone 6 on a particular line (as well as, of course, unlimited travel within Zones 1-6). This includes, for example, Coulsdon South, which is the boundary station for Zone 6 on the London-Brighton line. You can also take any route that is within 3 miles of the shortest route.

The shortest route from Reading to Coulsdon South is 50.79 miles, via Chertsey, Streatham and South Croydon. However, the route followed by the direct GWR train that goes from Reading to Gatwick Airport via Gomshall and Dorking Deepdene is along a route that takes just 51.86 miles to get to Coulsdon South, via Gomshall, Dorking Deepdene and Redhill. Therefore your season ticket covers you as far as Redhill.

You then only need a ticket from Redhill to Gatwick Airport. An Anytime Day Return is an extortionate £7.60, but this is still just £4.10 a week more (assuming you're getting a monthly season ticket) than getting a season ticket to London Terminals and then a separate ticket from Wokingham to Gatwick Airport - and for that £4.10 you get unlimited travel within Zones 1-6 on the Underground, (almost all) National Rail services, DLR, trams and buses. I'd say that's almost certainly worth it!

 

[JonathanH]

If you will have a season ticket from Reading to London Terminals (as opposed to a certain number of the London Zones), then, if you use the direct train that goes from Reading to Gatwick Airport via Gomshall and Dorking Deepdene, you are covered as far as Wokingham, as your season ticket is valid to Waterloo (and other London Termini) on the SWR route that way.

However, a ticket from Wokingham isn't much cheaper than one from Reading. In fact, a ticket from Wokingham is still £25.10 for an Anytime Day Return - this is relatively speaking so expensive that it is almost cheaper, whether or not you use the Underground or any other trains etc. within the London Zones, to get your season ticket to London Zones 1-6. This is valid along the shortest route from Reading to any station that forms the boundary of Zone 6 on a particular line (as well as, of course, unlimited travel within Zones 1-6). This includes, for example, Coulsdon South, which is the boundary station for Zone 6 on the London-Brighton line. You can also take any route that is within 3 miles of the shortest route.

The shortest route from Reading to Coulsdon South is 50.79 miles, via Chertsey, Streatham and South Croydon. However, the route followed by the direct GWR train that goes from Reading to Gatwick Airport via Gomshall and Dorking Deepdene is along a route that takes just 51.86 miles to get to Coulsdon South, via Gomshall, Dorking Deepdene and Redhill. Therefore your season ticket covers you as far as Redhill.

You then only need a ticket from Redhill to Gatwick Airport. An Anytime Day Return is an extortionate £7.60, but this is still just £4.10 a week more (assuming you're getting a monthly season ticket) than getting a season ticket to London Terminals and then a separate ticket from Wokingham to Gatwick Airport - and for that £4.10 you get unlimited travel within Zones 1-6 on the Underground, (almost all) National Rail services, DLR, trams and buses. I'd say that's almost certainly worth it!

That is dangerous advice. I do not believe that a Reading to Zone 1-6 travelcard will be accepted via Guildford (even on the basis of the shortest route to Coulsdon South).

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

That is dangerous advice. I do not believe that a Reading to Zone 1-6 travelcard will be accepted via Guildford (even on the basis of the shortest route to Coulsdon South).

It is not dangerous advice at all. Any member of staff who suggests that it is invalid is poorly trained and unknowledgeable. The validity of a ticket along the shortest route to the stated destination - with Coulsdon South being a station within the destination (Zones 1-6) - is so basic that it is even printed on the back of most ticket stock. If they attempted to penalise the OP in any way, we would be more than able to help the OP defend against or appeal against any kind of penalty.

In any case, there is no question of it being "accepted" - it is valid, and therefore any attempt to take any action against the OP for making use of their ticket in a valid way would constitute a very serious breach of contract.

 

[FenMan]

It is not dangerous advice at all. Any member of staff who suggests that it is invalid is poorly trained and unknowledgeable. The validity of a ticket along the shortest route to the stated destination - with Coulsdon South being a station within the destination (Zones 1-6) - is so basic that it is even printed on the back of most ticket stock. If they attempted to penalise the OP in any way, we would be more than able to help the OP defend against or appeal against any kind of penalty.

In any case, there is no question of it being "accepted" - it is valid, and therefore any attempt to take any action against the OP for making use of their ticket in a valid way would constitute a very serious breach of contract.

While I agree, a Blackwater - Zones 1-6 Any Permitted season, priced at £1.50 more a week, may be safer. It is valid via Reading into Paddington and the shortest route to Coulsdon South is via Redhill. It also opens up routes to London via Farnborough North/Farnborough Main, and North Camp/Ash Vale, as well as via Wokingham/Ascot.

 

[OwlMan]

It is not dangerous advice at all. Any member of staff who suggests that it is invalid is poorly trained and unknowledgeable. The validity of a ticket along the shortest route to the stated destination - with Coulsdon South being a station within the destination (Zones 1-6) - is so basic that it is even printed on the back of most ticket stock. If they attempted to penalise the OP in any way, we would be more than able to help the OP defend against or appeal against any kind of penalty.

In any case, there is no question of it being "accepted" - it is valid, and therefore any attempt to take any action against the OP for making use of their ticket in a valid way would constitute a very serious breach of contract.

It is your opinion that is valid. Other opinions say it is not.
The NRCOT states

13.1.2. by any services (including any change of trains) over the shortest route which can be used by scheduled passenger services between the stations shown on your Ticket;

One opinion is that the shortest route from Reading to Zones 1-6 is not via Coulsdon South.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

It is your opinion that is valid. Other opinions say it is not.
The NRCOT states

One opinion is that the shortest route from Reading to Zones 1-6 is not via Coulsdon South.

If you went to any retailer that sells season tickets and asked for a season ticket from Reading to Coulsdon South, then you should be offered, as the cheapest option, a Reading to London Zones 5-6 season ticket. You should also be given the option of extending that season ticket, at increasing prices, to include Zones 4-6, 3-6, 2-6, and 1-6. I don't think anyone could say that, if you asked for a season ticket from Reading to Coulsdon South that, if you are then given a season ticket to London Zones 5-6, it wouldn't be valid along the shortest route from Reading to Coulsdon South, or a route within 3 miles thereof.

Why, therefore, would anyone legitimately try to suggest that buying a season ticket that is additionally valid in Zones 1-4 would mean that that route is no longer valid? Obviously there are cases where this happens, but I think anyone can see that is an entirely untenable position upon analysis.

Now, of course, there will always be those who disagree, but I struggle to see that this is any kind of anomaly or anything untoward - you are using the ticket in exactly the way you are supposed, and permitted, to use it. To me, the idea of London Zones 1-6 meaning that you can choose your destination (for the purposes of Condition 13) as being any station within London Zones 1-6, is no different to how you can choose any station within any other kind of station group, e.g. Manchester Stations, Birmingham Stations and so on.

 

[OwlMan]

If you went to any retailer that sells season tickets and asked for a season ticket from Reading to Coulsdon South, then you should be offered, as the cheapest option, a Reading to London Zones 5-6 season ticket. You should also be given the option of extending that season ticket, at increasing prices, to include Zones 4-6, 3-6, 2-6, and 1-6. I don't think anyone could say that, if you asked for a season ticket from Reading to Coulsdon South that, if you are then given a season ticket to London Zones 5-6, it wouldn't be valid along the shortest route from Reading to Coulsdon South, or a route within 3 miles thereof.

Why, therefore, would anyone legitimately try to suggest that buying a season ticket that is additionally valid in Zones 1-4 would mean that that route is no longer valid? Obviously there are cases where this happens, but I think anyone can see that is an entirely untenable position upon analysis.

Now, of course, there will always be those who disagree, but I struggle to see that this is any kind of anomaly or anything untoward - you are using the ticket in exactly the way you are supposed, and permitted, to use it. To me, the idea of London Zones 1-6 meaning that you can choose your destination (for the purposes of Condition 13) as being any station within London Zones 1-6, is no different to how you can choose any station within any other kind of station group, e.g. Manchester Stations, Birmingham Stations and so on.

A simple question - what is the shortest route from Reading to the nearest station in Zone 6?
That is the shortest route between the stations printed on the ticket.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

A simple question - what is the shortest route from Reading to the nearest station in Zone 6?
That is the shortest route between the stations printed on the ticket.

Ah, but then we are saying something different. The issue, I think, is that the ticket destination of "London Zones X-Y" can be construed as meaning different things. It can be construed to mean "a season ticket to the nearest station in Zone Y plus a Zones X-Y Travelcard", as you have said. It can also be construed to mean "a season ticket to all station in Zones X-Y, plus a Zones X-Y Travelcard", in the same way that "X Stations" does. I am quite certain in saying that it is actually the latter. (Of course, by the very nature of the rail network in London, the latter meaning, for mileage-based purposes, effectively means "a season ticket to all the boundary stations in Zone Y...")

If we use the first meaning then surely a Reading to London Zones 1-6 ticket wouldn't even be valid via Staines. After all, the mileage from Reading to West Drayton is over 5 miles shorter than the mileage to Feltham, which is the first station in Zone 6 on the Reading-London SWR service. And that is, quite clearly, a ludicrous conclusion - after all, going via Staines is a mapped route if you have a Reading to London Terminals season ticket!

 

[OwlMan]

Ah, but then we are saying something different. The issue, I think, is that the ticket destination of "London Zones X-Y" can be construed as meaning different things. It can be construed to mean "a season ticket to the nearest station in Zone Y plus a Zones X-Y Travelcard", as you have said. It can also be construed to mean "a season ticket to all station in Zones X-Y, plus a Zones X-Y Travelcard", in the same way that "X Stations" does. I am quite certain in saying that it is actually the latter.

If we use the first meaning then surely a Reading to London Zones 1-6 ticket wouldn't even be valid via Staines. After all, the mileage from Reading to West Drayton is over 5 miles shorter than the mileage to Feltham, which is the first station in Zone 6 on the Reading-London SWR service. And that is, quite clearly, a ludicrous conclusion - after all, going via Staines is a mapped route if you have a Reading to London Terminals season ticket!

But that is a mapped route to the boundary station. The ticket is still valid via all mapped Routes.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

But that is a mapped route to the boundary station

Reading to Coulsdon South via Gomshall and Redhill is a mapped route to that boundary station, though!

It is a perfectly reasonable route too, just as going via (central) London is. Someone who wants to have the flexibility of going both ways would be quite legitimate in buying a Reading to London Zones 1-6 season ticket!

 

[FenMan]

A simple question - what is the shortest route from Reading to the nearest station in Zone 6?
That is the shortest route between the stations printed on the ticket.

A straw man. The question is what are valid routes to Z6 border stations from the originating point, without crossing through a zone of course. An Any Permitted ticket from Blackwater gives the choice of West Drayton, Feltham, Surbiton, Ewell West, Ewell East or Coulsdon South.

Should I be restricted to travelling via the Z6 station that happens to be shortest distance from Blackwater, (which is Feltham)?
I think not.

 

[JB_B]

A simple question - what is the shortest route from Reading to the nearest station in Zone 6?
That is the shortest route between the stations printed on the ticket.

My understanding is that you can take any permitted route (not passing within the zones) to the first (nominated) station arrived at inside the zones; that need not be the nearest one to the origin.

See this thread

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...routes-to-match-those-to-london-terms.120505/

In particular posts #10-11 which imply that whilst ATOC (as was) didn't like the freedom given to travellers by this interpretation, they tacitly accepted it, and were closing routes down by adding route restrictions instead.


The example in post #34 is maybe directly relevant to the OP.

 

[alistairlees]

That is dangerous advice. I do not believe that a Reading to Zone 1-6 travelcard will be accepted via Guildford (even on the basis of the shortest route to Coulsdon South).

I agree. I don't think a Reading to London Zones 1-6 Travelcard is valid via Gomshall, nor was it it ever intended to be. Travelcards are intended to provide the benefit of a day return to London, plus unlimited travel within Zones 1-6. They are not intended outside of that. I think it's highly likely the OP would (correctly, in my opinion) be told this ticket was invalid if they were travelling with it on that route.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I agree. I don't think a Reading to London Zones 1-6 Travelcard is valid via Gomshall, nor was it it ever intended to be. Travelcards are intended to provide the benefit of a day return to London, plus unlimited travel within Zones 1-6. They are not intended outside of that. I think it's highly likely the OP would (correctly, in my opinion) be told this ticket was invalid if they were travelling with it on that route.

What the intention is, is wholly irrelevant to the actual validity. The TOCs have decided not to opt for "reasonable routes". That has both advantages and disadvantages for them, and they must live with, and respect, the disadvantages. As explained above (and as previously agreed by esteemed members of the forum on other threads), if the Reading Travelcard isn't valid via Gomshall to Coulsdon South, then equally it can't be valid via Staines. As that is a ridiculous conclusion, it must be valid via Gomshall to Coulsdon South. The Travelcard is the season ticket you would (or at least should) be sold if you asked for a season ticket from Reading to Coulsdon South that's valid both via London and not via London, so it is an eminently reasonable route, and far less of an anomaly than some of the other results of the rules of validity for outboundary Travelcards.

 

[JonathanH]

It is a shame there isn't an explicit Reading to Gatwick Airport via London Zones 1-6 ticket.

It seems that these were set for some Southeastern destinations, probably many years ago and have been increased year on year as appropriate.

eg Reading to Tonbridge via Zones 1-6 http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=RDG&dest=TON&grpo=0403&rte=923&tkt=7TS

(Is this actually valid via Gomshall? Possibly not. I can't believe that they actually sell anyone this ticket.)

Where a price for a season ticket doesn't exist, can it be created by application to the train company involved?

As explained above (and as previously agreed by esteemed members of the forum on other threads), if the Reading Travelcard isn't valid via Gomshall to Coulsdon South, then equally it can't be valid via Staines. As that is a ridiculous conclusion, it must be valid via Gomshall to Coulsdon South.

No, the view being expressed is that you take permitted routes to London, not the boundary. Travelling via Slough and via Staines are permitted routes from Reading to London.

The Travelcard is the season ticket you would (or at least should) be sold if you asked for a season ticket from Reading to Coulsdon South that's valid both via London and not via London, so it is an eminently reasonable route, and far less of an anomaly than some of the other results of the rules of validity for outboundary Travelcards.

No, you would be told that there is no ticket which permits you to have the option to go via both central London and Gomshall from Reading to Coulsdon South.

(Of course, off-topic, but the correct ticket if you want to travel from Reading to Coulsdon South via both Staines and Gomshall is one from Reading to Riddlesdown, Not Via London) as this offers the same flexibility but with the ability to catch all trains between Redhill and East Croydon, not just those which stop at Coulsdon South.)

 

[JB_B]

I agree. I don't think a Reading to London Zones 1-6 Travelcard is valid via Gomshall, nor was it it ever intended to be. Travelcards are intended to provide the benefit of a day return to London, plus unlimited travel within Zones 1-6. They are not intended outside of that. I think it's highly likely the OP would (correctly, in my opinion) be told this ticket was invalid if they were travelling with it on that route.

No doubt there was no specific intention to make this particular route available for travelcard users but I don't understand why it would be invalid - can you explain why you think it isn't valid?

For info, NRE is happy to offer this route and it hands over to GWR who will sell a Reading to Z1-6 ODTC with an itinerary via Gomshall and Redhill to Coulsdon South.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

It is a shame there isn't an explicit Reading to Gatwick Airport via London Zones 1-6 ticket.

It seems that these were set for some Southeastern destinations, probably many years ago and have been increased year on year as appropriate.

eg Reading to Tonbridge via Zones 1-6 http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=RDG&dest=TON&grpo=0403&rte=923&tkt=7TS

(Is this actually valid via Gomshall? Possibly not. I can't believe that they actually sell anyone this ticket.)

Where a price for a season ticket doesn't exist, can it be created by application to the train company involved?

The procedure for selling such a season ticket is detailed here. But it is a fair amount more expensive to buy such a season ticket, as compared to getting a Reading to London Zones 1-6 Travelcard season, and then adding on an Anytime Day Return from Redhill to Gatwick once a week. Of course, if the frequency of the journeys to Gatwick were higher, it might become the cheaper option again.

No, the view being expressed is that you take permitted routes to London, not the boundary. Travelling via Slough and via Staines are permitted routes from Reading to London.

So, if you are supposed to use permitted routes to London Terminals, what destination are you supposed to use for a ticket to London Zones 2-6? What about 3-6? Or 4-6 or 5-6? It is clearly a nonsense to calculate the validity that way! There are far too many problems caused by calculating the validity in this way - there is no other sensible conclusion than that you can use any permitted route to any station within the covered Zones, subject to not passing through Zones 1-6 along the way.

No, you would be told that there is no ticket which permits you to have the option to go via both central London and Gomshall from Reading to Coulsdon South.

(Of course, off-topic, but the correct ticket if you want to travel from Reading to Coulsdon South via both Staines and Gomshall is one from Reading to Riddlesdown, Not Via London) as this offers the same flexibility but with the ability to catch all trains between Redhill and East Croydon, not just those which stop at Coulsdon South.)

It has previously been the opinion of esteemed and respected forum members that the validity is as I have said.

As @JB_B has linked to, GWR themselves sell the season ticket this way. If they did not intend for season tickets to be valid this way, there are things they could do to stop it. But they have not, and thus season tickets are valid this way.

If, of course, the OP wanted to avoid any accusation of being off-route, they could simply buy the season ticket with an itinerary, printing this out as evidence of the agreed contractual route and validity.

 

[Richard Hall]

Unless I have missed something - Shouldn't your employers cover additional travel away from normal place of work?

 

[alistairlees]

For info, NRE is happy to offer this route and it hands over to GWR who will sell a Reading to Z1-6 ODTC with an itinerary via Gomshall and Redhill to Coulsdon South.

When I used this query: http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/timesandfares/RDG/CDS/tomorrow/1530/dep/tomorrow/1830/dep (return from Reading to Coulsdon South for travel out and back on 12th March) on NRE it did come up with the journey via Gomshall, but no fares were displayed. Off-Peak Day Travelcards were offered only for itineraries via London. So I couldn't replicate any handoff to GWR.com for the via Gomshall query.

No doubt there was no specific intention to make this particular route available for travelcard users but I don't understand why it would be invalid - can you explain why you think it isn't valid?

More generally, I think that:
1. Travelcards that are to to London Zones 1-6 are intended to have their route validity calculated as if they are return fares to London Terminals, with additional unlimited validity in London Zones 1-6. In that sense they are as if they have a "via" routeing of London Terminals
2. point to point fares that are to (e.g.) London Zones 2-6 - or any other combination of zones that does not include Zone 1 - are intended to have their route validity calculated as if they are fares to London Terminals, but with validity on National Rail only to an interchange point within Zones 2-6, followed by a leg (or legs) on TfL

If the second point were calculated as if they were valid to any location in Zones 2-6 then there would most likely be some ridiculous outcomes such as Reading to Ilford being said to be valid via some overly-long itinerary (this is probably not a good example, but I am sure there will be some like that). Further, I can't really see it as intended that point to point fares to zonal locations (such as 2-6) have - or could reasonably be expected to have - greater validity over the choice of routes to / from London than Travelcards.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

When I used this query: http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/timesandfares/RDG/CDS/tomorrow/1530/dep/tomorrow/1830/dep (return from Reading to Coulsdon South for travel out and back on 12th March) on NRE it did come up with the journey via Gomshall, but no fares were displayed. Off-Peak Day Travelcards were offered only for itineraries via London. So I couldn't replicate any handoff to GWR.com for the via Gomshall query.


More generally, I think that:
1. Travelcards that are to to London Zones 1-6 are intended to have their route validity calculated as if they are return fares to London Terminals, with additional unlimited validity in London Zones 1-6. In that sense they are as if they have a "via" routeing of London Terminals
2. point to point fares that are to (e.g.) London Zones 2-6 - or any other combination of zones that does not include Zone 1 - are intended to have their route validity calculated as if they are fares to London Terminals, but with validity on National Rail only to an interchange point within Zones 2-6, followed by a leg (or legs) on TfL

If the second point were calculated as if they were valid to any location in Zones 2-6 then there would most likely be some ridiculous outcomes such as Reading to Ilford being said to be valid via some overly-long itinerary (this is probably not a good example, but I am sure there will be some like that). Further, I can't really see it as intended that point to point fares to zonal locations (such as 2-6) have - or could reasonably be expected to have - greater validity over the choice of routes to / from London than Travelcards.

The issue I see with the explanation you have given, is that not only does it contradict what other experts have said, but it seems a little illogical to me. For many combinations of outboundary origins and inboundary (but non-London-Terminal) destinations, there isn't a pure National Rail point-to-point season ticket - if you want a through ticket, you have to buy a Travelcard, whether you want the additional validity this offers, or not. This applies even where only National Rail travel is required to make the journey.

Why those tickets are then supposed to be treated as if they are a Zones 1-6 Travelcard, except with one or more central Zones 'surgically removed', so to speak, is not something I can understand. It creates severe difficulties in the calculation of valid routes for certain origin-destination pairs, and I submit that it's not the way that the current routeing rules are intended to work, nor is it how they actually work.

 

[JB_B]

When I used this query: http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/timesandfares/RDG/CDS/tomorrow/1530/dep/tomorrow/1830/dep (return from Reading to Coulsdon South for travel out and back on 12th March) on NRE it did come up with the journey via Gomshall, but no fares were displayed. Off-Peak Day Travelcards were offered only for itineraries via London. So I couldn't replicate any handoff to GWR.com for the via Gomshall query.


More generally, I think that:
1. Travelcards that are to to London Zones 1-6 are intended to have their route validity calculated as if they are return fares to London Terminals, with additional unlimited validity in London Zones 1-6. In that sense they are as if they have a "via" routeing of London Terminals
2. point to point fares that are to (e.g.) London Zones 2-6 - or any other combination of zones that does not include Zone 1 - are intended to have their route validity calculated as if they are fares to London Terminals, but with validity on National Rail only to an interchange point within Zones 2-6, followed by a leg (or legs) on TfL

If the second point were calculated as if they were valid to any location in Zones 2-6 then there would most likely be some ridiculous outcomes such as Reading to Ilford being said to be valid via some overly-long itinerary (this is probably not a good example, but I am sure there will be some like that). Further, I can't really see it as intended that point to point fares to zonal locations (such as 2-6) have - or could reasonably be expected to have - greater validity over the choice of routes to / from London than Travelcards.

Hi Alistair.

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I suspect that we might struggle to arrive at a definitive conclusion and I certainly don't pretend to have any special expertise on this subject.


(I'm also conscious that a technical debate might not be the most helpful thing for the OP and might be better carried on elsewhere.)

For the record, I clicked on the NRE link you gave and the travelcard option was offered 2nd on the list after I clicked 'more fares' - that works for me on multiple devices. If you have a chance to look again it would be useful to know if you still can't see it.


The arguments against allowing Reading to Coulsdon South via Gomshall using a RDG->Z1-6 travelcard (that you, OwlMan and JonathanH have advanced) all strike me rather normative: this wasn't the 'intention', it 'shouldn't' be allowed. I don't 'believe' it's valid.

As far as I can tell there is nothing in NRCoT, the Routeing Guide nor in the guidance to journey planner developers which enshrines a rule restricting available routes in the way you describe (Neither to shortest routes, nor to routes through to notionally applicable London terminals.) And as I noted above, journey planners don't appear to apply such a restrictive rule either.


Conversely, of course, I can't point to a specific rule which makes it valid; I'd say it's just a corollary of the normal RG rules.

I understand that RDG/ATOC aren't happy with this, but they could have chosen to introduce such a rule preventing this interpretation if they'd wanted and they haven't. ( That was the whole point of the thread I linked to in post #13.)

 

[alistairlees]

Hi Alistair.

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I suspect that we might struggle to arrive at a definitive conclusion and I certainly don't pretend to have any special expertise on this subject.


(I'm also conscious that a technical debate might not be the most helpful thing for the OP and might be better carried on elsewhere.)

For the record, I clicked on the NRE link you gave and the travelcard option was offered 2nd on the list after I clicked 'more fares' - that works for me on multiple devices. If you have a chance to look again it would be useful to know if you still can't see it.


The arguments against allowing Reading to Coulsdon South via Gomshall using a RDG->Z1-6 travelcard (that you, OwlMan and JonathanH have advanced) all strike me rather normative: this wasn't the 'intention', it 'shouldn't' be allowed. I don't 'believe' it's valid.

As far as I can tell there is nothing in NRCoT, the Routeing Guide nor in the guidance to journey planner developers which enshrines a rule restricting available routes in the way you describe (Neither to shortest routes, nor to routes through to notionally applicable London terminals.) And as I noted above, journey planners don't appear to apply such a restrictive rule either.


Conversely, of course, I can't point to a specific rule which makes it valid; I'd say it's just a corollary of the normal RG rules.

I understand that RDG/ATOC aren't happy with this, but they could have chosen to introduce such a rule preventing this interpretation if they'd wanted and they haven't. ( That was the whole point of the thread I linked to in post #13.)

Hi. I looked at the NRE link. Somehow I'd missed that the second itinerary was via Gomshall, and does indeed allow a Travelcard. Perhaps I was distracted by the itinerary above it (also via Gomshall) that is one minute quicker, has one extra change, and yet seems to have no fares at all. There's another itinerary via Gomshall at 16.04 that also has a Travelcard on it, so I'm sure there are many more.

Does the presence of the Travelcard with this itinerary on the National Rail website make it valid? Undoubtedly. Does that make it correct? Not necessarily. There are so many complexities and ambiguities within the fares and routeing guide data that there is room for differing interpretation on many things; especially when there are many rules that are not contained in data at all, just in 'instructions' (like internal Knowledge Base). As you observe, there are no clear instructions (either way) as to what to do.

The only way to get this to work consistently is to codify everything in data form; to ensure that the data structures support the outcomes that the industry requires; to ensure that change is managed in a controlled way (people can't just invent new products with different rules); and to fully document it all. I do often suggest this to everyone involved.

Until that's done then there will be different interpretations, leading to confused customers (and developers!). I took a look at a few different journey planners, and IPTIS, Worldline and Trainscanbecheaper and Trainline all offered the Travelcard for the "via Gomshall" route; and RIBS (behind Raileasy) didn't (at least, I couldn't make it).

 

[sheff1]

I agree. I don't think a Reading to London Zones 1-6 Travelcard is valid via Gomshall, nor was it it ever intended to be. Travelcards are intended to provide the benefit of a day return to London, plus unlimited travel within Zones 1-6. They are not intended outside of that.

That may be the case for a one day Travelcard, but the thread relates to a season ticket. A holder of a Reading to Z1-6 season could, if they so desired, shuttle up and down between Reading and Slough on any given day(s) without going into London at all.

 

[JB_B]

Until that's done then there will be different interpretations, leading to confused customers (and developers!). I took a look at a few different journey planners, and IPTIS, Worldline and Trainscanbecheaper and Trainline all offered the Travelcard for the "via Gomshall" route; and RIBS (behind Raileasy) didn't (at least, I couldn't make it).

Thanks - I take your points about documentation, etc. I took a look at Raileasy but I couldn't get it to offer any travelcard at all for RDG->CDS (not just for via Gomshall) so that may be a wider issue.

 

[furlong]

More generally, I think that:
1. Travelcards that are to to London Zones 1-6 are intended to have their route validity calculated as if they are return fares to London Terminals, with additional unlimited validity in London Zones 1-6.

It's the other way around. An outboundary travelcard is fundamentally intended to be a Travelcard (with unlimited route and operator validity within its zones) with an extra piece bolted on to get you to and from its boundary. (Go and read the Travelcard Agreement if you don't believe me.) Then only that extra piece is subject to the Routeing Guide (and operator restrictions), which is one reason why journey planners are instructed to calculate routes based on the relevant boundary stations.

Regarding 'shortest route' arguments, I favour the interpretation that allows only one shortest route from the origin to the zones (i.e. only the nearest boundary station counts) rather than a separate one for each choice of boundary station (so for others you must rely on mapped routes existing entirely outside the zones), but alternative interpretations might be possible.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

It's the other way around. An outboundary travelcard is fundamentally intended to be a Travelcard (with unlimited route and operator validity within its zones) with an extra piece bolted on to get you to and from its boundary. (Go and read the Travelcard Agreement if you don't believe me.) Then only that extra piece is subject to the Routeing Guide (and operator restrictions), which is one reason why journey planners are instructed to calculate routes based on the relevant boundary stations.

Regarding 'shortest route' arguments, I favour the interpretation that allows only one shortest route from the origin to the zones (i.e. only the nearest boundary station counts) rather than a separate one for each choice of boundary station (so for others you must rely on mapped routes existing entirely outside the zones), but alternative interpretations might be possible.

Even if you are limited to relying on mapped routes, Redhill passes as an appropriate destination Routeing Point for Reading to Coulsdon South, so via Redhill is a mapped route.

 

[Paul Kelly]

I took a look at a few different journey planners, and IPTIS, Worldline and Trainscanbecheaper and Trainline all offered the Travelcard for the "via Gomshall" route; and RIBS (behind Raileasy) didn't (at least, I couldn't make it).

I don't think Raileasy sells Travelcards, which would explain that. But really, I'm surprised there's so much debate about this. There are certainly plenty of things that are poorly documented and/or inconsistently implemented between different journey planners, but this isn't one of them! The rule that you validate to the boundary station using routeing guide rules, and within the zonal area then purely according to the zones passed through seems pretty well accepted and widely established, as far as I can see.