Reasons and the right/wrongs of long distance commuting

[Bletchleyite]

Mod Note: Posts #1 - #17 originally in this thread.

Why does it work in Germany?

Primarily because there's very little long-distance commuting so the "cap" can be lower than it would need to be in the UK.

Switzerland does have a fair bit of long distance commuting, by contrast, and still manages to have the Generalabonnement, that said.

 

[anme]

Primarily because there's very little long-distance commuting so the "cap" can be lower than it would need to be in the UK.

Switzerland does have a fair bit of long distance commuting, by contrast, and still manages to have the Generalabonnement, that said.

In the end it's a question of priorities. The UK could do this if it chose to. Instead we milk long distance commuters dry.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In the end it's a question of priorities. The UK could do this if it chose to. Instead we milk long distance commuters dry.

Which is not an unreasonable act, because long-distance commuting is bad for the environment and bad for peoples' mental wellbeing, therefore it is to be strongly discouraged and definitely not subsidised.

 

[anme]

Which is not an unreasonable act, because long-distance commuting is bad for the environment and bad for peoples' mental wellbeing, therefore it is to be strongly discouraged and definitely not subsidised.

Well I would agree, expect many people have no choice. The UK's sad combination of jobs being concentrated in certain areas, and a broken housing market with extreme and unaffordable prices means that many people have no choice but to commute, and without long distance commuting the UK's economy would not be sustainable in its current form.

We should certainly reduce the need for long distance commuting, but further punishing those who are forced to endure it seems cruel.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well I would agree, expect many people have no choice.

I don't agree. There are always choices. Presently, long-distance commuting is a reasonably palatable one - it should not be.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

Which is not an unreasonable act, because long-distance commuting is bad for the environment and bad for peoples' mental wellbeing, therefore it is to be strongly discouraged and definitely not subsidised.

It depends what you mean by long distance commuting, I suppose. If you mean Monday-Friday daily commutes you're probably right but these days many people travel to London from places like Cardiff and Bristol for a couple of days a week while working from home on other days.

It's a lifestyle choice to give up a couple of evenings of family time in return for better, more affordable housing, high quality state education etc. Of course, those kind of commuters don't generally buy season tickets.

 

[anme]

I don't agree. There are always choices. Presently, long-distance commuting is a reasonably palatable one - it should not be.

I don't agree. A large proportion of long distance commuters have no choice. And even if they could afford to live close to where they work, there are not physically enough places to house them. The UK economy relies on people facing the misery of long distance commuting. Trust me - I've done it and it destroys your life, even if you are lucky enough to get a comfortable seat every day.

This is a structural problem in the UK. I agree it should be fixed, but further punishing the people who suffer long distance commuting today seems cruel.

 

[BigCj34]

Something like BahnCard 100 would never get traction in the UK - you can extrapolate its' likely cost from the rates for 7-day and 14-day All Line Rovers. Most people in the 'my season ticket costs me eleventy squillion pounds' group would buy one, and the railway would scream about how they were losing money from people travelling by train using their 'Railcard 100'.

Such a scheme would be great for rail use, but not so clearly advantageous for the farebox. Even a National Railcard available to everyone isn't acceptable, despite the fact that the increase in passenger numbers would probably more than offset the reduction in fares paid.

There is no way we would have a £3500 Railcard for the network. If we had such an equivalent it would have to cost at least £10,000 to deter most season ticket users. If there was such a card closer to £3500 It would have to be restricted to off-peak periods.

I do think the Gold Card should be upgraded to provide the privileges of a National Railcard that allows discounted travel on services across Britain as a minimum. Whether it should extend to Advance tickets and First Class is debatable though.

 

[BigCj34]

Why does it work in Germany?

Population less concentric around one urban area, not having the ludicrous properties in the capital that lead to longer distabce commuting and higher rail subsidies I'm guessing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't agree. A large proportion of long distance commuters have no choice.

That is frankly completely false. It may be the only choice to maintain the present lifestyle. There are always choices. One could for instance choose a substantial downgrade in lifestyle (e.g. replace lots of holidays abroad with one in the UK) to be able to live on a lower income and work more locally.

 

[anme]

That is frankly completely false. It may be the only choice to maintain the present lifestyle. There are always choices. One could for instance choose a substantial downgrade in lifestyle (e.g. replace lots of holidays abroad with one in the UK) to be able to live on a lower income and work more locally.

No. It would not be possible for a significant number of people to, for example, stop working in London and start working in Basingstoke. The jobs simply do not exist! It might be possible for a small number, but not for everyone.

So the UK economy relies on people undertaking long distance commuting. We should change that, but punishing people for doing it is cruel.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No. It would not be possible for a significant number of people to, for example, stop working in London and start working in Basingstoke. The jobs simply do not exist! It might be possible for a small number, but not for everyone.

So the UK economy relies on people undertaking long distance commuting. We should change that, but punishing people for doing it is cruel.

We're maybe talking slightly cross purposes. Commuting from the South East (former NSE area minus some of the western extremes[1]) is a fairly long way but isn't really what I was thinking of, with season tickets costing typically around £4-5K PA that's vaguely similar money to the likes of the BahnCard 100 and Generalabonnement (a bit more expensive, but not ridiculously so). Similarly, the likes of the western Peak District to Manchester isn't what I'm aiming at - I'm thinking more like people going over Woodhead from the Liverpool direction, of which there are quite a few.

There are people commuting far longer distances than that (e.g. Bristol-London, Birmingham-London, Brighton-London, Liverpool-Sheffield and the likes) and it's that that is really unsustainable. I would suggest commuting by car with a drive of over 1hr needs seriously deprecating, far more so than even 2 hours by train, because of the effects of fatigue on road safety. I did it for a bit (about 1h45 door to door), it was grim and downright dangerous - I switched to 2.5 hours by train as this was far less hard on me and didn't pose a risk to other road users.

If you watch some property TV programmes it seems not uncommon for people to choose to buy houses in the western Cotswolds and one person commute to London and the other to Bristol/Birmingham. This too is pretty unsustainable - really, choose one and move closer.

My point isn't about suggesting people should all get jobs in small commuter towns, as as you say these don't exist.

[1] With much of the employment being around the City of London area, that doesn't translate nicely to simple rail journey times. MKC-EUS is half an hour but it'll likely take you another 45 minutes on top to get to the office packed onto the insufferably grim Northern Line, whereas it might be an hour from Basingstoke to Waterloo but then you can walk to the office in 20 minutes.

 

[RLBH]

There is no way we would have a £3500 Railcard for the network. If we had such an equivalent it would have to cost at least £10,000 to deter most season ticket users. If there was such a card closer to £3500 It would have to be restricted to off-peak periods.

Last time I did the maths, it worked out at £4,785 Standard and £8,130 First Class. But that's still cheap enough that it would be a better deal than quite a lot of season tickets.

Primarily because there's very little long-distance commuting so the "cap" can be lower than it would need to be in the UK.

I suspect there's a political dimension as well - such a scheme will increase rail use at the expense of car use. That's desirable from a transport policy viewpoint, even if the railways are 'losing' money from people who use their pass a lot. British transport planners seem to focus on that 'lost' money (which doesn't actually exist - if the passenger didn't have the pass, they'd probably drive) far more than a lot of places.

Unfortunately I can't see a straightforward, workable solution to the long-distance commuting problem. It ties up business, transport, housing and education - and even a bit of social care - in a colossal mess, all of which needs to be tackled together.

 

[bspahh]

Last time I did the maths, it worked out at £4,785 Standard and £8,130 First Class. But that's still cheap enough that it would be a better deal than quite a lot of season tickets.

An All Line Rover for 7 days costs £526. If you scale this by the difference in cost between a Anglia Plus 7 day Season (£54.30), and an Anglia Plus Annual Season (£2172) then an Annual All Line Rover would be £21040.

This is with prices from https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/rangers_and_rovers.aspx

 

[Adsy125]

An All Line Rover for 7 days costs £526. If you scale this by the difference in cost between a Anglia Plus 7 day Season (£54.30), and an Anglia Plus Annual Season (£2172) then an Annual All Line Rover would be £21040.

This is with prices from https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/rangers_and_rovers.aspx

What's the most expensive season ticket you can buy?

 

[bspahh]

What's the most expensive season ticket you can buy?

Some were mentioned in this thread. https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/most-expensive-season-ticket.111775/
Today, an Annual season ticket from Berwick upon Tweed to London Zones 1-6 is £24296. Glasgow to Derby is £22798.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Some were mentioned in this thread. https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/most-expensive-season-ticket.111775/
Today, an Annual season ticket from Berwick upon Tweed to London Zones 1-6 is £24296. Glasgow to Derby is £22798.

Why not go the whole hog and make it First Class? That comes to £41304 for the Berwick example!