Receive a court letter for being charged fail to present a railcard

[begforluck]

Hi my son brought a discounted fare ticket without valid railcard. I admitted this is a dishonest behaviour. I willingness to pay the penalty. However, I read some other post and google it that it will have criminal record and may affect his further career. I can't believer this is so serious that it will have criminal record. I have below question and see if anyone can help.
1. Someone suggest to seek legal advise. I am not sure is it worth as I can't see any excuse that my son can make? If it fail, will he facing a more serious penalty?
2. If I commit guilty, will the criminal record show on any system and affect his career and his study? He is now undergraduate year 1.
3. If he is being ask any criminal record, does he need to mention this?
Anything you may advise. many many thanks,

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Welcome to the forum.

One question that I would ask is whether this was a one-off incident. What was the journey in question and has your son been purchasing any other discounted tickets to which he wasn't entitled to the discount on previous occasions, and/or is this just the first time that he has been caught out?

The train company fraud investigation team, may well be able to look back at your son's ticket purchasing history to see if there have been any similar journeys.

Otherwise, it would be best to await the advice of one or more of the forum experts as to how to proceed, such as @Hadders.

It may be possible to negotiate a so-called "out of court" settlement to avoid your son being found guilty in court, but this quite possibly will cost £££.

Other options/outcomes may also be possible.

 

[begforluck]

It is the first time that he has been caught out. But he should have other purchase history using invalid railcard(i.e. without buy a railcard).

How possible to negotiate a so-called "out of court" settlement? Do it need to be done on or before the deadline?

 

[AlterEgo]

Could you help us with the following information about your son:

• We need to know all relevant facts in order to assist you, including, for example:
  • The stations where you started & finished your journey;
  • The stations where you changed trains (if applicable);
  • If you presented a ticket(s), the information stated under "Ticket type", "From", "To", "Route", and any other relevant details;
  • What happened in any encounter with railway staff;
  • The details of any paperwork with which you were issued.
• Be careful not to post anything incriminating or personally identifying
• We need to know what outcome(s) you would consider satisfactory

Could you let us know which train company stopped him and whether you have received any correspondence?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

It is the first time that he has been caught out. But he should have other purchase history using invalid railcard(i.e. without buy a railcard).

This may complicate matters slightly, since the train company fraud investigation team will probably now be looking for the full fare to be paid up for each and every occasion on which a discount was incorrectly claimed, plus a contribution towards their expenses.

May make any "out of court" settlement, if this is possible, more expensive, but not impossible.

The questions which @AlterEgo has just asked are pertinent, and hopefully @Hadders will be along presently to provide further advice to try to help you / your son.

 

[Haywain]

It is the first time that he has been caught out. But he should have other purchase history using invalid railcard(i.e. without buy a railcard).

How possible to negotiate a so-called "out of court" settlement? Do it need to be done on or before the deadline?

What deadline? Have you received a letter already, and if so what does it say? As for how to negotiate a settlement, here is the advice that @Hadders gives:

I normally recommend that the following is included in a reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before. Most train companies are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) for people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. There is no guarantee of this and the train company would be well within their rights to prosecute you in the magistrates court.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi my son brought a discounted fare ticket without valid railcard. I admitted this is a dishonest behaviour. I willingness to pay the penalty. However, I read some other post and google it that it will have criminal record and may affect his further career. I can't believer this is so serious that it will have criminal record. I have below question and see if anyone can help.
1. Someone suggest to seek legal advise. I am not sure is it worth as I can't see any excuse that my son can make? If it fail, will he facing a more serious penalty?
2. If I commit guilty, will the criminal record show on any system and affect his career and his study? He is now undergraduate year 1.
3. If he is being ask any criminal record, does he need to mention this?
Anything you may advise. many many thanks,

Also - try perusing some of the other recent threads on forgotten to renew railcards / deliberately bought tickets with a railcard discount when having no intention to buy a railcard - that will give you some ideas of what tends to happen.

Get you son to make an accurate list of all the trips where this has happened for your own records (of poss dates and places to and from etc, fares paid)

 

[30907]

Welcome to the forum!

Your son is an adult, and it might be easier all round if he were to reply directly, though I am sure he appreciates your help!

The results of being taken to court (if it gets that far) will vary, depending on the offence he is charged with.
Either way, there will normally be a fine (this is means-tested and he will receive a discount for pleading guilty); there will also be a contribution to the railway's costs including the fare or fares he avoided.
If he is prosecuted under the Railway Byelaws for not showing a valid ticket, it is a "non-recordable" conviction, so he doesn't get a record. If he is prosecuted for fare evasion, the conviction will be "spent" after a year.
As a general rule, you do not have to declare a non-recordable or spent conviction. The second sort may show up on an Enhanced DBS search, but it most likely won't matter too much.
It is always better to tell a potential employer about a conviction, though, rather than let them find out another way!

But he may find he is able to settle out of court anyway.

 

[begforluck]

Could you help us with the following information about your son:

• We need to know all relevant facts in order to assist you, including, for example:
  • The stations where you started & finished your journey;
  • The stations where you changed trains (if applicable);
  • If you presented a ticket(s), the information stated under "Ticket type", "From", "To", "Route", and any other relevant details;
  • What happened in any encounter with railway staff;
  • The details of any paperwork with which you were issued.
• Be careful not to post anything incriminating or personally identifying
• We need to know what outcome(s) you would consider satisfactory

Could you let us know which train company stopped him and whether you have received any correspondence?

- from london paddington to london heathrow airport
- the ticket type is an off peak standard day return using the 16-17 railcard discount
- the train company is TFL
- my son and his friend purchased a ticket from London Paddington to London Heathrow airport with a 16-17 railcard discount without having the 16-17 discount and they were both aged 18 and 19 at that time. When the officers asked to check the tickets and railcard, my son attempted to play smart by trying to edit the railcard (as he previously owned a 16-25 saver railcard but it expired) while his friend said he left it at home and asked if he can provide proof of railcard on another occasion. However, the TFL officer caught my son editing the railcard from the window reflection therefore he had no choice but to admit that he tried to commit a fraud while under the aggressive verbal behaviour or the officers, my son's friend also admitted that he didn't have a railcard in the end.
- both my son and his friend received a letter from the TFL Investigations Appeals and Prosecutions team a few days later stating that they have committed the offence and so they replied it by email as they provided them our personal information and stating that they admit they committed an offence, with a paragraph saying that they are very sorry about their actions
- so far, only my son received the single justice procedure notice but not his friend
- since both of them are university students and my son is under a visa that is applying for a British citizenship, we would hope that they will not have a criminal record
- however, we are worried that this is only the first time that they get caught but not the first time that they have purchased a discounted ticket, so if they request purchasing history, it might be possible that it would backfire the appeal

 

[AlterEgo]

- from london paddington to london heathrow airport
- the ticket type is an off peak standard day return using the 16-17 railcard discount
- the train company is TFL
- my son and his friend purchased a ticket from London Paddington to London Heathrow airport with a 16-17 railcard discount without having the 16-17 discount and they were both aged 18 and 19 at that time. When the officers asked to check the tickets and railcard, my son attempted to play smart by trying to edit the railcard (as he previously owned a 16-25 saver railcard but it expired) while his friend said he left it at home and asked if he can provide proof of railcard on another occasion. However, the TFL officer caught my son editing the railcard from the window reflection therefore he had no choice but to admit that he tried to commit a fraud while under the aggressive verbal behaviour or the officers, my son's friend also admitted that he didn't have a railcard in the end.
- both my son and his friend received a letter from the TFL Investigations Appeals and Prosecutions team a few days later stating that they have committed the offence and so they replied it by email as they provided them our personal information and stating that they admit they committed an offence, with a paragraph saying that they are very sorry about their actions
- so far, only my son received the single justice procedure notice but not his friend
- since both of them are university students and my son is under a visa that is applying for a British citizenship, we would hope that they will not have a criminal record
- however, we are worried that this is only the first time that they get caught but not the first time that they have purchased a discounted ticket, so if they request purchasing history, it might be possible that it would backfire the appeal

OK.

Train companies can vary in their attitudes to settling this sort of thing out of court. Unfortunately, TfL tend not to be minded to settle this sort of obvious fare evasion out of court and prefer to put offenders in front of the magistrates to be punished. That isn't to say settling is impossible, but it is just less likely, and the aggravating factor of essentially trying to defraud the company by editing a railcard is probably going to lessen the chances even further.

As your son has already replied, at the moment can't really advise on any further action except to wait for TfL's response. This may either be a further letter asking for more information again, or a summons to the magistrates' court.

Have TfL said which specific offence your son is accused of? Have they named the law they are looking to prosecute under? Some offences, such as those under the bylaws, are non-recordable which means the information isn't entered onto the Police National Computer, but some offences (generally those which display intent) are recordable.

As far as I know, none of us are qualified to give immigration advice here about visas or citizenship, and if you are worried, you should seek specialist advice about that aspect.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum.

As noted above TfL are not known for settling out of court. I would expect your son's friend to also be sent a letter but being totally honest your son has committed a more serious offence as he was caught altering the date on a railcard.

How did your son purchase his tickets? It is unlikely that they will look at other instances, although they could, especially if the tickets have been purchased online.

Seeing as you have already replied to TfL's initial letter I suggest posting a copy of their reply here (with personal details redacted) and forumu members will be happy to assist advising next steps.

 

[30907]

From your reply, TfL would seem to be able to prosecute under the Regulation of Railways Act section 5, which is the more serious "recordable" offence I mentioned earlier. As I said, though, this is not the end of the world.

However, matters relating to visas, immigration and so on are not something any of us qualified to advise on - there will be people at the uni who can help.

 

[begforluck]

OK.

Train companies can vary in their attitudes to settling this sort of thing out of court. Unfortunately, TfL tend not to be minded to settle this sort of obvious fare evasion out of court and prefer to put offenders in front of the magistrates to be punished. That isn't to say settling is impossible, but it is just less likely, and the aggravating factor of essentially trying to defraud the company by editing a railcard is probably going to lessen the chances even further.

As your son has already replied, at the moment can't really advise on any further action except to wait for TfL's response. This may either be a further letter asking for more information again, or a summons to the magistrates' court.

Have TfL said which specific offence your son is accused of? Have they named the law they are looking to prosecute under? Some offences, such as those under the bylaws, are non-recordable which means the information isn't entered onto the Police National Computer, but some offences (generally those which display intent) are recordable.

As far as I know, none of us are qualified to give immigration advice here about visas or citizenship, and if you are worried, you should seek specialist advice about that aspect.

The special offence that he is accused of is Contrary to byelaw 17(1) and 23 of the Transport for London Railway Byelaws made under paragraph 26 of Schedule 11 to the Greater London Authority Act 1999 and confirmed under section 67 of the Transport Act 1962.

Welcome to the forum.

As noted above TfL are not known for settling out of court. I would expect your son's friend to also be sent a letter but being totally honest your son has committed a more serious offence as he was caught altering the date on a railcard.

How did your son purchase his tickets? It is unlikely that they will look at other instances, although they could, especially if the tickets have been purchased online.

Seeing as you have already replied to TfL's initial letter I suggest posting a copy of their reply here (with personal details redacted) and forumu members will be happy to assist advising next steps.

The initial letter stated that he had committed an offence and they advised him that legal proceedings may be taken against him in accordance with tfl's prosecution policy. They have asked him to return the letter with some personal information. They stated that he did not have to reply to the letter but it may harm his defence if he do not mention something now that he may later rely on in court. Anything he provides in the writing may be used in evidence. Failure to respond in the letter may result in the matter being progressed by TFL without further notification.

- from london paddington to london heathrow airport
- the ticket type is an off peak standard day return using the 16-17 railcard discount
- the train company is TFL
- my son and his friend purchased a ticket from London Paddington to London Heathrow airport with a 16-17 railcard discount without having the 16-17 discount and they were both aged 18 and 19 at that time. When the officers asked to check the tickets and railcard, my son attempted to play smart by trying to edit the railcard (as he previously owned a 16-25 saver railcard but it expired) while his friend said he left it at home and asked if he can provide proof of railcard on another occasion. However, the TFL officer caught my son editing the railcard from the window reflection therefore he had no choice but to admit that he tried to commit a fraud while under the aggressive verbal behaviour or the officers, my son's friend also admitted that he didn't have a railcard in the end.
- both my son and his friend received a letter from the TFL Investigations Appeals and Prosecutions team a few days later stating that they have committed the offence and so they replied it by email as they provided them our personal information and stating that they admit they committed an offence, with a paragraph saying that they are very sorry about their actions
- so far, only my son received the single justice procedure notice but not his friend
- since both of them are university students and my son is under a visa that is applying for a British citizenship, we would hope that they will not have a criminal record
- however, we are worried that this is only the first time that they get caught but not the first time that they have purchased a discounted ticket, so if they request purchasing history, it might be possible that it would backfire the appeal

Could you help us with the following information about your son:

• We need to know all relevant facts in order to assist you, including, for example:
  • The stations where you started & finished your journey;
  • The stations where you changed trains (if applicable);
  • If you presented a ticket(s), the information stated under "Ticket type", "From", "To", "Route", and any other relevant details;
  • What happened in any encounter with railway staff;
  • The details of any paperwork with which you were issued.
• Be careful not to post anything incriminating or personally identifying
• We need to know what outcome(s) you would consider satisfactory

Could you let us know which train company stopped him and whether you have received any correspondence?

Also, the statement for my son's offence stated "he produced a discounted ticket without the accompanying photocard to validate the discount. He also produced a 18+ Oystercard that had not been used and contained a minus balance and therefore was not valid" The officer requested to check both his 18+ photocard and old 16+ oystercard (he doesn't use that anymore but it was just in his wallet) as she saw it from my son's wallet.

 

[furlong]

There's nothing to lose seeing if you can persuade them to settle, but don't get your hopes up - it is rarely seen on these forums. They publish these criteria (in a document they normally refer to in the letters they send) which your son should should consider if he tries this:

8.5
...
TfL may decide, in exceptional circumstances, to dispose of an offence by way of a Warning Letter in lieu of prosecution after considering several factors: -
a) The offender has admitted the offence;
b) The offender is willing to accept the warning;
c) There must be sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of a conviction if the offender were to be prosecuted;
d) The offence is not one where a prosecution is required in the public interest
e) There is likely to be a low risk of re-offending;
f) Satisfactory mitigation has been provided;

So you should consider, for example: would your son be able to convince them he won't re-offend? Do you believe your son might still do something similar again? Is it going to need the court process and punishment to get the message through to him that this was wrong? Sometimes using a solicitor helps as they can assess the situation independently as a professional and say things in better ways. As a simple example, has your son now bought the correct railcard for his current and future travel which he could now show them and did he do that immediately after this incident or not? (or put money on the 18+ Oystercard if that is valid and showing a proper and believable travel history)

 

[Fawkes Cat]

There may be other sources of advice for your son. In particular, as he is a student, it may be worth talking to his Student Union. They may well have a Welfare Officer who can help both with the byelaw prosecution, and with any impact that this might have on his visa and so on.

 

[Deafdoggie]

2. If I commit guilty, will the criminal record show on any system and affect his career and his study? He is now undergraduate year 1.
3. If he is being ask any criminal record, does he need to mention this?
Anything you may advise. many many thanks,

It depends exactly on what he is prosecuted under, but it can show.
As an employer, if someone says I once got caught with an incorrect rail ticket so that will show on my records check, then most will let that go. However, doing it wilfully, deliberately and repeatedly, is less likely to be overlooked. Lieing about it will only make things worse. Although it appears that your immediate concern is a visa, on which I have no experience. It is possible, but very, very unlikely, the university could throw him off the course for bringing the university into disrepute, but again very, very unlikely. They would likely only do this for repeated, wilful fare evasion that involved them in some way. But all actions have consequences.

 

[WesternLancer]

There may be other sources of advice for your son. In particular, as he is a student, it may be worth talking to his Student Union. They may well have a Welfare Officer who can help both with the byelaw prosecution, and with any impact that this might have on his visa and so on.

Strongly recommend this - esp given the wider aspects ref visa application etc.

 

[30907]

The special offence that he is accused of is Contrary to byelaw 17(1) and 23 of the Transport for London Railway Byelaws made under paragraph 26 of Schedule 11 to the Greater London Authority Act 1999 and confirmed under section 67 of the Transport Act 1962.

The good news from this is that TfL are prosecuting for the lesser offence of failing to produce a valid ticket (17) and to give name and address (23).
So they are treating this as a single occasion only and opting for the least serious offence, which is non-recordable as explained upthread.

From other threads TfL seem to be ready to choose this route rather than going for anything more serious - I imagine because it is so straightforward.

 

[begforluck]

Thank you very much for all of your suggestion. I am discussing with a number of lawyer and hopefully it can be settled out of court under optimistic situation. If not, I hope it can be a non recordable record or only keep for a short period of time and don't affect my son's visa application.

 

[BJames]

It depends exactly on what he is prosecuted under, but it can show.
As an employer, if someone says I once got caught with an incorrect rail ticket so that will show on my records check, then most will let that go. However, doing it wilfully, deliberately and repeatedly, is less likely to be overlooked. Lieing about it will only make things worse. Although it appears that your immediate concern is a visa, on which I have no experience. It is possible, but very, very unlikely, the university could throw him off the course for bringing the university into disrepute, but again very, very unlikely. They would likely only do this for repeated, wilful fare evasion that involved them in some way. But all actions have consequences.

Given that they are prosecuting under the lesser offence I think fortunately you're right in that it would be incredibly unlikely for the University to take further action here. It's worth noting that some courses, e.g. medicine/law, are quite strict in the level of disrepute that offences such as this can bring on both personal character (i.e. is the person actually trustworthy enough for this profession) so I hope the OP can take the time to remind their son that this isn't the kind of behaviour he should be engaging with. As @Deafdoggie says, all actions have consequences, and it sounds like he has quite a lot of important things at the moment (university and visa) that require good strength of character.

Strongly recommend this - esp given the wider aspects ref visa application etc.

I second this as well, Student Unions across the country have teams well-versed in this kind of thing, and can usually offer very impartial advice.

 

[begforluck]

Hello all,

Just would like to share a good news with all of you that TFL replied that they will issue a warning letter instead of prosecution. I am appreciated with the lawyer who is very helpful, detail and responsive. Also, I need to thank all of your suggestions. Here is what we have done for reference.
1. Getting a lawyer to write an appeal letter
2. Getting a help from teacher to write a letter to show your good character (the lawyer will give you some guideline.)
3. Buy a valid rail card as soon as possible
4. Buy a valid oyster card asap in my case
5. Prepare an apology letter by yourself

Finally, it is not good and not worth for such behavior.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Finally, it is not good and not worth for such behavior.

I think we would all endorse this: the stress of dealing with being caught is unpleasant, whether TfL take further action or not.

And thanks for letting us know about the good result!

 

[WesternLancer]

Hello all,

Just would like to share a good news with all of you that TFL replied that they will issue a warning letter instead of prosecution. I am appreciated with the lawyer who is very helpful, detail and responsive. Also, I need to thank all of your suggestions. Here is what we have done for reference.
1. Getting a lawyer to write an appeal letter
2. Getting a help from teacher to write a letter to show your good character (the lawyer will give you some guideline.)
3. Buy a valid rail card as soon as possible
4. Buy a valid oyster card asap in my case
5. Prepare an apology letter by yourself

Finally, it is not good and not worth for such behavior.

Thanks - helpful to see how you approached this, and that it worked OK - hope you did not have to pay too much for lawyer's help. Perhaps you could post rough idea of what you paid in case future readers find that helpful to know, if they need to go down that route (as long as you are happy to say of course)

 

[begforluck]

Thanks - helpful to see how you approached this, and that it worked OK - hope you did not have to pay too much for lawyer's help. Perhaps you could post rough idea of what you paid in case future readers find that helpful to know, if they need to go down that route (as long as you are happy to say of course)

It costs me 840 (include VAT).

 

[Zabina25]

It costs me 840 (include VAT).

Hi
Could you let us know what solicitor you used as my daughter is in the same situation

 

[30907]

Hi
Could you let us know what solicitor you used as my daughter is in the same situation

Cross-referencing your own thread, the case here is rather more serious - involving blatant attempted fraud. But it does show that even TfL can be persuaded!