Received a letter from southeastern prosecutions; please advise

[aniecfai]

Hello,

I’m hoping you can help me out with something.

I received a letter from Southeastern Prosecutions about using a non-peak ticket during peak hours. After seeing similar cases on this forum, I think writing a response might help me settle this without going to court.

I’ve put together a draft and would really appreciate it if you could take a look and let me know what you think. Thanks so much for your help—I really value any advice you can offer.


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Dear Southeastern Prosecutions Manager,

I am writing to express my most sincere apologies for the incident that occurred on [DATE] 2024.

On that day, I traveled with a non-peak ticket during peak hours. I now realise that this was a violation of railway regulations, and I deeply regret it. I fully understand that there are no excuses.

I fully acknowledge that I should have chosen a more responsible course of action, and I will make sure to always purchasing the appropriate ticket in the future.

I sincerely hope we can settle this matter without the need of court action. I am more than willing to pay the outstanding fare and any administrative costs involved.

Once again, I apologise for the incident. I have learnt my lessons, and I vow to follow all railway regulations in the future.

Yours sincerely,

 

[furlong]

Depends on the circumstances which you haven't told us! For some tickets, you are entitled to pay just the difference in fare on the spot, but for others not.

What exactly was your ticket? Origin, destination, price? Any railcard? Where were you stopped?

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

We need to know some more details about the exact ticket you were using. Section 9.5 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel says:

9.5 Where you:
9.5.1 are using a time-restricted Ticket (such as an “off-peak” or “super-off-peak” Ticket) that is correctly dated but invalid for the service on which you are travelling; or

9.5.2 are using a route for which your Ticket is not valid; or

9.5.3 break your journey when you are not permitted to do so; you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.

Based on the limited amount of information you have told us so far you only need to pay an excess fare (i.e. the difference between the off peak fare and Anytime fare.

 

[aniecfai]

Thank you for the quick responses—I really appreciate it.

The ticket was an off-peak day return from Preston Park to London Bridge. It costed £14.95 with a Network Railcard discount. I was stopped at the barrier at London Bridge station.

 

[furlong]

OK, so then can you tell us the time of the train you were on (and what day of the week) so we can check what counts as peak?

Did you start your journey at Preston Park? Was it a digital ticket or a cardboard one? If it was digital, had you bought it before getting on the train?

- The Network Railcard isn't valid until 10am (on a working day).
- The Off-Peak ticket is valid earlier than that.

I would argue that 9.5.1 quoted above applies and you should only have been asked to pay the excess. Some people on here argue that a time restriction on the use of a railcard is not a time restriction on the ticket itself and so not covered by 9.5.1 but I think that's stretching the ordinary meaning of words. It's up to you of course whether or not you want to make that argument and quote 9.5.1.

Two underlying questions though that might influence your response are:
1) How did this situation come about? Systems won't sell that ticket for a train it's not valid on. How, where and when did you buy the ticket? (If online, which retailer.)
2) Have you done this before and if so might the train company have a way of working that out by looking at purchase records?

 

[aniecfai]

Sure, here’s more information:

It was a weekday. I actually started my journey at Hove, not Preston Park. I purchased a digital ticket from Hove to Preston Park, and another digital ticket from Preston Park to London Bridge. I didn’t buy a direct ticket from Hove to London Bridge because it would have been a paper ticket, and I prefer digital tickets. Plus, getting a paper ticket from the machine at the station can take a while, especially if there’s a queue.

I bought both tickets via Trainline before boarding the train.

When I arrived at London Bridge station and tried to exit, the barrier was closed. I approached an officer for assistance, who then stopped me, took my details, and conducted an interview, which was recorded on their body cam.

Thanks again for your help, Furlong and Hadders. Based on the Section 9.5 you mentioned, is the issue that I used an off-peak ticket with a Network Railcard during peak hours? Am I understanding that correctly?

 

[AlterEgo]

Sure, here’s more information:

It was a weekday. I actually started my journey at Hove, not Preston Park. I purchased a digital ticket from Hove to Preston Park, and another digital ticket from Preston Park to London Bridge. I didn’t buy a direct ticket from Hove to London Bridge because it would have been a paper ticket, and I prefer digital tickets. Plus, getting a paper ticket from the machine at the station can take a while, especially if there’s a queue.

I bought both tickets via Trainline before boarding the train.

When I arrived at London Bridge station and tried to exit, the barrier was closed. I approached an officer for assistance, who then stopped me, took my details, and conducted an interview, which was recorded on their body cam.

Thanks again for your help, Furlong and Hadders. Based on the Section 9.5 you mentioned, is the issue that I used an off-peak ticket with a Network Railcard during peak hours? Am I understanding that correctly?

Did you enter a later time than the one you travelled in the app? What itinerary for both of those tickets were you given?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@aniecfai. What time did your train, headed for London Bridge, leave Preston Park at? Did you change trains at Preston Park or stay on the same train from Hove?
The devil, as is often the case, is likely to be in the detail!

 

[island]

It was a weekday. I actually started my journey at Hove, not Preston Park. I purchased a digital ticket from Hove to Preston Park, and another digital ticket from Preston Park to London Bridge. I didn’t buy a direct ticket from Hove to London Bridge because it would have been a paper ticket, and I prefer digital tickets. Plus, getting a paper ticket from the machine at the station can take a while, especially if there’s a queue.

Did you travel before 10am?

 

[Hadders]

A Network Railcard is not valid for travel before 10am on weekdays. If you travelled before 10am then the ticket is invalid and I don't believe you are entitled to only pay the excess fare.

Had you not have used the Network Railcard then only an excess fare would have been payable.

 

[aniecfai]

Thank you all so much for your attention to this matter. I truly appreciate it. it means a lot to me.

To clarify, the digital ticket I purchased was for off-peak hours, valid after 10 a.m. I bought the ticket via Trainline with a Network Railcard but traveled before 10 a.m. from Hove to London Bridge. I didn’t change trains at Preston Park; I stayed on the same train for the entire journey.

I now realise this was a violation of railway regulations, and I am fully prepared to pay the outstanding fare, any penalties, as well as administrative costs. I just hope to avoid any court action.

Do you think my draft accurately covers everything? Is there anything I should adjust before sending it to Southeastern Prosecutions? Thanks again for your help.

 

[furlong]

We need the complete details to help any further.

The actual train you caught and the times selected for the journeys in trainline when you bought them.

And when you bought the tickets - what day/time? (Previous day? Same day? 5 minutes before departure? 2 hours before?)

 

[aniecfai]

Apologies for not being clear earlier. I’m feeling very panicked and not recalling all the details. I’ve just checked my purchase records, and here’s some additional information.

I bought the digital ticket from Hove to Preston Park while walking to Hove station that morning. The ticket was for the train that departed Hove at 8:20 a.m. and arrived at Preston Park at 8:25 a.m.

I entered Hove station using this ticket.

Before departing from Preston Park, I purchased the digital ticket from Preston Park to London Bridge while on the train. This ticket was for the 10:02 a.m. departure from Preston Park, with a Network Railcard discount. Again, I now realise I shouldn’t have done this, and I deeply regret it.

To clarify, it wasn’t a direct train from Hove to London Bridge; I had to change trains at East Croydon. I arrived at London Bridge before 10 a.m.

I hope this clears things up. Please let me know if you need any more details. Thanks so much for your help.

 

[furlong]

While splitting the journey at Preston Park is certainly a sensible thing to do to save money, the "direct train" part had us puzzled because most of the morning Hove trains go to Victoria.

So there were two problems.
(1) Using an off-peak ticket earlier than was valid.
(2) Using a network railcard earlier than was valid.

It is difficult to interpret selecting a much later departure time and buying the second ticket once on the train as anything other than a deliberate attempt to avoid paying the right fare for the journey. While technically you might be entitled to use 9.5.1 you clearly didn't know that so I think a fair case could be made that at the time of purchase of the second ticket you fell foul of the law.

So the "I now realise" in your draft doesn't look good. I reckon the train company will think you probably realised at the time too. I'd suggest you be rather more apologetic and acknowledge that you've understood BOTH of the two problems we've identified - in particular I think you should reassure them that you understand the rules for using your railcard.

Also, if they look at your other purchases on thetrainline, which they often do in these situations, are they going to see anything else problematic?

 

[aniecfai]

Thanks so much for your response. You’ve really helped clear things up for me. I’ll adjust my draft based on your suggestions.

I usually travel to London once or twice a week and often split the journey this way. I’ll review my Trainline records again to see if there’s anything else I should add.

 

[John R]

Thanks so much for your response. You’ve really helped clear things up for me. I’ll adjust my draft based on your suggestions.

I usually travel to London once or twice a week and often split the journey this way. I’ll review my Trainline records again to see if there’s anything else I should add.

When you say you “often” split the journey this way, do you actually mean “always”, as I suspect once most people find a way of avoiding the correct fare they do it each time?

You need to be aware that it is very likely that GTR will identify these previous occurrences and include them in any settlement offer it makes. Depending on how long and how frequently you have been doing this it could quickly add up to a very substantial sum.

Any settlement offer will need to be paid very quickly, so it’s definitely in your interest to work out the possible amount you could be looking at.

 

[island]

This forum works best when all of the details of the issue are presented upfront, rather than being dripped in over the course of several posts. Please help us help you.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The ticket was an off-peak day return from Preston Park to London Bridge. It costed £14.95 with a Network Railcard discount.

A further observation. Was this a discounted route "Not Underground" ticket or a route "Thameslink Only" ticket? Notwithstanding the other ticketing issues arising, moot point as to whether the latter routeing is definitely valid on a Southern train service previously calling at Hove.

 

[Haywain]

A further observation. Was this a discounted route "Not Underground" ticket or a route "Thameslink Only" ticket? Notwithstanding the other ticketing issues arising, moot point as to whether the latter routeing is definitely valid on a Southern train service previously calling at Hove.

To be honest, I don't think it's helpful to get into that. The OP has a pretty clear case of fare evasion against them already.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

To be honest, I don't think it's helpful to get into that. The OP has a pretty clear case of fare evasion against them already.

Inclined to agree. Does the OP have any prospect of making a successful appeal, or is the best that can now be hoped for them, is negotiating a modest "out of court settlement" for the one occasion they got stopped?

 

[Haywain]

Inclined to agree. Does the OP have any prospect of making a successful appeal, or is the best that can now be hoped for them, is negotiating a modest "out of court settlement" for the one occasion they got stopped?

The latter.

 

[John R]

Inclined to agree. Does the OP have any prospect of making a successful appeal, or is the best that can now be hoped for them, is negotiating a modest "out of court settlement" for the one occasion they got stopped?

I think the definition of successful is a modest out of court settlement, rather than it being the alternative.

 

[aniecfai]

Thank you all so much once again.

You’re absolutely right. I should have been more mindful, and I’ll make sure to identify previous occurrences and calculate the possible amount.

I’m really hoping to settle this without going to court, so I don’t plan to appeal.

I’ll work on calculating the amount and will post a revised draft as soon as possible.