Reduction in minimum age for train drivers.

[saismee]

Spotify works on our company issued iPad. Numerous studies confirm, that music can improve alertnes on long journeys. Quite a few countries have adapted their rulebooks accordingly.

I am not a driver and have no driving experience, but that sounds like a terrible idea. Switching songs sounds like it could easily be enough of a distraction to cause a problem.

I believe in some parts of Australia, their train cabs have radios (so you cannot choose the song) which automatically switch off when any kind of alarm goes off. Maybe that could be trialled here but I doubt it.

 

[DMckduck]

Definitely won't happen here. Strictly no devices to be on in operational driving cabs. Not even permitted silent or airplane at my TOC.

Not even the company issue tablet? If so yours must be pretty good, the ones at my TOC take about 10 minutes to fully load up if needed.

 

[dk1]

Not even the company issue tablet? If so yours must be pretty good, the ones at my TOC take about 10 minutes to fully load up if needed.

We have Samsung tablets. Apart from a DI or manager inputing training data strictly in airplane mode, no equipment whatsoever is allowed to be switched on.

 

[furnessvale]

Fair point. That can happen internally, too, of course.

Yes, but internally there is more chance that someone else knows the true nature of the recipient of the "glowing reference".

 

[Egg Centric]

Spotify works on our company issued iPad. Numerous studies confirm, that music can improve alertnes on long journeys. Quite a few countries have adapted their rulebooks accordingly.

Am curious - do colleagues share playlists or things like that?

I am not convinced that sticking to old policies despite new evidence is a successful strategy.

This is effectively the public sector and a very risk averse part of it at that. Of course it's a successful strategy (at the agent level if not the principal anyway)

 

[infobleep]

So basically the skill you used in answering that question was, to figure out the likely hidden meaning behind the question that the interviewers wanted but hadn't actually said. (Which is a great skill to have for normal human interactions, but possibly not the kind of thing the interviewers should be prioritising testing for the job of train driver )

As someone who is dyslexic, I find it harder to work out the hidden meaning in generic questions.

So one that refers to an experience similar to driving a train wouldn't make me think of dealing with children but would lead me down a transport themed path. A train driver does have lots of people under his care but he isn't directly interacting with them except in emergencies or someone presses the call button by accident.

Of course, if one is given sight of the questions in advance, they can seek help in understanding them.

I had one restructure interview at work where the questions were going to be even more generic than this. That was changed for the interview process I went through because some of us would struggle to answer them if they weren't specific enough. That restructure was almost 10 years ago and after 2 futher restructures, without interviews, I am still at the same place doing fine.

 

[AverageJoe]

Spotify works on our company issued iPad. Numerous studies confirm, that music can improve alertnes on long journeys. Quite a few countries have adapted their rulebooks accordingly.

Although I would like it I just can’t see it being a good idea.

It’s necessary to be able to hear and quickly identify many different sounds in the cab in order to react to them in time.
AWS, DSD, PAU, CFA, Fire alarm, major fault alarm, minor fault alarm.

I drive multiple tractions and the sounds slightly differ in each.

For me I could see it causing a bit of confusion and me missing something I need to react to.

Also there is the potential for emergency calls coming through or broadcasts that need to be clearly heard.

What countries are doing this?

 

[bahnause]

Although I would like it I just can’t see it being a good idea.

It’s necessary to be able to hear and quickly identify many different sounds in the cab in order to react to them in time.
AWS, DSD, PAU, CFA, Fire alarm, major fault alarm, minor fault alarm.

I drive multiple tractions and the sounds slightly differ in each.

Spotify works on the devices, but its use is a grey area. It would therefore make sense to implement such developments properly and integrate them into the cab design where necessary, as is the case in Sweden, for example. However, it is important to bear in mind that the strategies for avoiding lapses in concentration are very individual and such general regulations do not necessarily mean greater safety. There is a person sitting in the front seat who has been entrusted with the safety of hundreds of people. This person has been selected and trained for this role. This also includes a certain degree of competence to make their own decisions. Restricting these competences is not necessarily a safety gain.

 

[whoosh]

Are there restrictions on drinking alcohol the day before train driving ? Some industries have such and even have random tests.

More than twice as strict a limit on alcohol than driving a car. The whole "RMT defend drunk driver" story about a tube driver a few years ago, neglected to mention the aforementioned driver could've legally driven to work in his car, and home again after his alleged failed test. So he wasn't drunk as we don't allow drunk people to drive cars.
The union's complaint was over the admistration of the test, and as he wasn't arrested (which he would've been had he breached the 'legal' limit), there was no official test done at a police station.

Whelan I think has taken a slightly old fashioned viewpoint here: these days people often don’t join one industry and remain in it for their entire working lives. I had no thought of joining the industry at 18 when I was off to uni. I joined in my early thirties, however, and have had ten incident free years since.

I think we've agreed before that Wheelan's viewpoint is old fashioned when it comes to retirement as well, and seems to clamour for the days of spending your whole working life on the railway and retiring at retirement age with 40 years worth of pension. It isn't like that of course, and won't be even with the change in parameters over driving age.

From an outsider the whole shift pattern used is off-putting for starters, I've also imaged train cabs to be kitted out to the same level that HGV cabs are, with air con/heating and a few things such as radios as in broadcast radio/in cab audio ( Bluetooth/Spotify etc) to keep drivers alert/prevent boredom , as well as toilet access

Most passenger trains driving cabs have air con, but not all. Most freight cabs don't.
We are not allowed any music in the cab as this "could cause a distraction." Basically, you are sat in an isolation tank for hours at fatiguing times of the day, they know about 'underload' but won't allow any form of listening to the radio or any music (yet this is the advice for car drivers) and some cabs e.g. Class 180s, don't have opening windows either (also advice for car drivers).

Toilet access for freight drivers can be abysmal, and I dare say is one factor as to why there aren't many women freight drivers.

I am not convinced that sticking to old policies despite new evidence is a successful strategy.

I agree. But you are dealing with an industry that took until the 21st century to accept contact lenses and hearing aids. At one point, you couldn't drive the Greenford shuttle with contact lenses, but flying Concorde to JFK was ok!

I am not a driver and have no driving experience, but that sounds like a terrible idea. Switching songs sounds like it could easily be enough of a distraction to cause a problem.

I believe in some parts of Australia, their train cabs have radios (so you cannot choose the song) which automatically switch off when any kind of alarm goes off. Maybe that could be trialled here but I doubt it.

Australia had (maybe still does?) a CD player in the cabs - and this was on suburban passenger stock, not outback freight. Switching songs not a problem.



Coming back to the topic of 18 year olds now being able to apply - at least some young people won't waste their time with the police, fire service, and armed forces, get dishearted and then join the railway. They can just join the railway straight off now!

 

[43066]

This is effectively the public sector and a very risk averse part of it at that. Of course it's a successful strategy (at the agent level if not the principal anyway)

I think this is a key point. Ultimately we are starting from a position of a very, very safe railway where electronic devices are not allowed. Therefore anyone making the case for drivers to use Spotify etc. is going to need to show that it doesn’t detract from safety, and has some definable benefit.

 

[DMckduck]

I think this is a key point. Ultimately we are starting from a position of a very, very safe railway where electronic devices are not allowed. Therefore anyone making the case for drivers to use Spotify etc. is going to need to show that it doesn’t detract from safety, and has some definable benefit.

Could an argument also be made that the reason for the very safe railway is the safety systems protecting the train in the event of driver error?

We always hear about the serious ones that happen once in a blue moon, but im not aware of any published figures of the safety systems preventing incidents.

 

[bahnause]

I think this is a key point. Ultimately we are starting from a position of a very, very safe railway where electronic devices are not allowed. Therefore anyone making the case for drivers to use Spotify etc. is going to need to show that it doesn’t detract from safety, and has some definable benefit.

I think it is important to note in this case that ‘we’ only covers part of the railway world. In other railway networks, devices with a network connection are also used as part of a safety system.

 

[43066]

Could an argument also be made that the reason for the very safe railway is the safety systems protecting the train in the event of driver error?

We always hear about the serious ones that happen once in a blue moon, but im not aware of any published figures of the safety systems preventing incidents.

It’s both - the safety systems are not infallible, TPWS in particular isn’t fitted to the majority of signals. The systems are designed to prevent crashes in certain circumstances, but once they’re activated an incident has already happened. That’s extremely disruptive even if there are no injuries as the driver will generally need to be removed from driving while an investigation takes place, and then put onto an action plan.

I think it is important to note in this case that ‘we’ only covers part of the railway world. In other railway networks, devices with a network connection are also used as part of a safety system.

“We” on the sense of the UK railway also do this - every train is now equipped with GSMR radio that (generally!) maintains network connection, and can be used to make an emergency call if necessary. That isn’t the same as a device being used to stream music, though.

 

[PLY2AYS]

I think this is a key point. Ultimately we are starting from a position of a very, very safe railway where electronic devices are not allowed. Therefore anyone making the case for drivers to use Spotify etc. is going to need to show that it doesn’t detract from safety, and has some definable benefit.

Additionally, where do you draw the line between music and conversation? Listening to a podcast (in my opinion) would distract me from driving more than music, because the topics would play on my mind/severely distract away from RTC and short term memory. It’s extremely pertinent to note that those undiagnosed neurospicy* among us, could find it a level of distraction that makes the difference between a clean safety record and not.
It would also negate the need for quiet zones by driving cabs, which I very much enjoy.

*I myself am diagnosed neurospicy and completely understand I’m speaking anecdotally.

 

[bahnause]

“We” on the sense of the UK railway also do this - every train is now equipped with GSMR radio that (generally!) maintains network connection, and can be used to make an emergency call if necessary. That isn’t the same as a device being used to stream music, though.

Thanks to the integrated motion sensors, an iPad can be used as an excellent system for warning of a SPAD. Of course, this requires an active network connection in order to access the signal status.