Refilling boiler with water

[R4_GRN]

Can someone explain to me how a steam engine refills the boiler at boiler pressure replaces the water in the boiler with water from the tender at atmospheric pressure? Is is it put in under pressure from a pump?

 

[table38]

Whilst table38 doesn't do kettles, I believe the answer is an Injector

 

[R4_GRN]

Thanks table38, Victorian engineers were very clever in using the simplest solutions to a problem.

Another question, is the pressure in a water level sight glass at boiler pressure? Sounds dangerous to me, what happens if the glass breaks what is the danger to the crew?

 

[John Webb]

......Another question, is the pressure in a water level sight glass at boiler pressure? Sounds dangerous to me, what happens if the glass breaks what is the danger to the crew?

Yes, it is at boiler pressure. There are various safety devices, including a protector around the tube itself and shut-off valves to isolate the sight glass from the water and the steam. Some sight-glasses had automatic valves as well. Loco crews were well-trained to react to a broken glass with speed.

In addition, I understand that the sight-glasses were changed on a regular basis to minimise the effects of wear, tear and vibration in causing failures.

 

[181]

I'm not an expert, but I think pumps were also used to refill the boiler, both in early locomotives before injectors were invented, and in some later ones which preheated the water which meant that injectors didn't work.

 

[Welshman]

Yes, it is at boiler pressure. There are various safety devices, including a protector around the tube itself and shut-off valves to isolate the sight glass from the water and the steam. Some sight-glasses had automatic valves as well. Loco crews were well-trained to react to a broken glass with speed.

In addition, I understand that the sight-glasses were changed on a regular basis to minimise the effects of wear, tear and vibration in causing failures.

There are stories in some books of Railway reminiscences of drivers deliberately smashing a gauge glass with a spanner to give their new firemen experience of changing it in more favourable conditions than out on the road at perhaps 40-50mph!

 

[fsmr]

I'm not an expert, but I think pumps were also used to refill the boiler, both in early locomotives before injectors were invented, and in some later ones which preheated the water which meant that injectors didn't work.

Our 1/5 th replica of a New York Central 4-8-4 circa 1940s has both a standard steam injector and a feed water heater and steam powered mech pump as per full size Some pumps especially in the early Victorian era had pumps worked off the motion so rails had to be oiled in sidings to slip the wheels with tender brake on to pump water into the boiler Of course while running they were ok Giffard invented the injector to make a lightweight way of getting water into the boiler for an airship originally Clever design

 

[Taunton]

The Injector is really just a clever pump using temperature and pressure differential, but a few locos in the UK, and more overseas, used steam-driven mechanical pumps ("feed water pumps", above) to put the water in.

For example, the Glasgow & South Western Railway had a batch of 0-6-0s built around 1900 with these, invariably known as "the Pumpers" as anyone who had read David L Smith's books about the G&SW will know. They were used because they had another technical innovation that didn't quite make it, the pre-heating of water in the tender with exhaust steam piped backwards. Injectors depend on temperature differential, and don't work well with hot water coming in. Another use of feed water pumps therefore is condensing locomotives, where the exhaust steam is condensed and used again, just like what was standard practice on steam ships (which all used feed water pumps rather than injectors).

Great Western locomotives, and presumably many others, had two injectors, one which worked off boiler steam, which used quite a lot of steam, and one which worked off exhaust steam when the loco was running. The live steam injector, when switched on, is the device which is making the "singing" noise when a steam loco is standing.

Some pumps especially in the early Victorian era had pumps worked off the motion

An opposite sort of pump is the vacuum brake "ejector", which sucks the air out of the vacuum brake pipe. GWR locomotives also had two of these, one large steam operated one which you use to get the brakes off to start, and a smaller one driven off the motion, used pretty much all the time when running just to maintain the vacuum (it was attached to the crosshead behind one cylinder). I believe the latter was unusual on other railways; it is what can be heard making the "tiff-tiff-tiff" sound when a GW locomotive is coasting.

Certainly never heard of greasing the rails to get the latter operating! Mr Churchward would have had a fit. The nearest we came to this at Taunton shed was the coaling stage, which had about a 1 in 10 ramp up to the upper level (there's still one such at Didcot museum), which a Pannier Tank could just about manage, with a short running start, propelling one or two loaded coal wagons, but if it was raining heavily they might well slip substantially, Some shed turn drivers were better at this than others, and just about make it over the top at the first attempt, with huge wheelspin, sparks, and a thundering exhaust noise that could be heard across half the town.

 

[LWB]

Mechanical feed water pumps are what give locos in Westerns that distinctive pumping noise when they are stationary in .. well, stations.

 

[ac6000cw]

Mechanical feed water pumps are what give locos in Westerns that distinctive pumping noise when they are stationary in .. well, stations.

....with possibly a noise contribution from the air compressor as well ?

 

[Taunton]

Mechanical feed water pumps are what give locos in Westerns that distinctive pumping noise when they are stationary in .. well, stations.

By "Westerns" it is presumably meant cowboy films, and nothing to do with D1000 .

The wheezy "hiss-thump-hiss-thump" noise of US steam locos when stopped is generally the Westinghouse air brake compressor, often mounted outside the boiler. A number of British railways in steam days also used Westinghouse air brakes rather than the cheaper (and less-effective) vacuum brake, mainly those with high-intensity suburban services with frequent stops, and some of this lasted right through to the end of steam. Liverpool Street was probably the greatest bastion of this, with the LNER N7 0-6-2T locos which ran suburban services until the 1960s electrification. With multiple N7s against the buffers on the West Side of the station it could be quite a racket echoing from the overall roof of all the Westinghouse pumps thumping away. The pump runs at varying speeds, from maybe 30 rpm when pumping up pressure, down to just one or two pumps a minute to maintain it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZfWxiQ3Mhw

 

[341o2]

In I tried to run a railway p40 Gerard Feinnes commented on immediate post war problems with locomotive shortages on the former GER system and no avaliable help elsewhere due to Stratford alone having retained the Westinghouse brake.

There was one other system, however, it was used on the Isle of Wight until the end of steam, and test runs made with the "new" electric stock meant the steam locomotive could power the brakes, even operate the doors. A specially adapted wagon was used with standard couplings at one end and "tube" couplings at the other

 

[ac6000cw]

The steam locos used on the Tyne Dock - Consett iron ore trains had air compressors (in that case to power the wagon discharge doors - I think the braking was still vacuum).

 

[Taunton]

The locos on the Tyne Dock ore trains (originally O1 2-8-0s, later 9Fs) were specially fitted with steam-powered compressors mounted on the left hand running board. They were indeed only used for the wagon discharge mechanisms.

As well as the Isle of Wight there were other hangovers from pre-grouping times which retained Westinghouse air brakes. One was the old Caledonian Railway suburban services around Glasgow, with pre-grouping locomotives. The 4-4-0s with this brake just lasted into the 1960s when they suddenly became particularly useful for hauling the empty "Blue Trains" (later Class 303) around Glasgow when they were introduced, particularly as these ran on two electrically-unconnected networks for many years. After the loco's final withdrawl a few Class 20 diesels had to be specially fitted with air brakes for the same purpose. Elsewhere things were not so easy. The Wirral EMUs (air braked) which were taken to/from Horwich Works for overhauls had to be marshalled with a brake van front and rear, and hauled unbraked from Birkenhead round via Warrington.

David L Smith in his witty books about the old G&SW says some Ayrshire railwaymen referred to the Caledonian's brake as "yon Washing-house brakes".

 

[John Webb]

All Southern Railway/BR(S) EMUs use the Westinghouse brake for the same reason it was used on the Liverpool Street services. Only the 'tick-tock' of the steam air pump was replaced by a distinctive whirring sound under the motor coach as the electrically-driven compressor recharged the brake system.

 

[ac6000cw]

All Southern Railway/BR(S) EMUs use the Westinghouse brake for the same reason it was used on the Liverpool Street services. Only the 'tick-tock' of the steam air pump was replaced by a distinctive whirring sound under the motor coach as the electrically-driven compressor recharged the brake system.

So were some Southern Railway steam locos equipped with air-brake capability so they could haul EMU stock to/from places like Eastleigh works ?

 

[John Webb]

So were some Southern Railway steam locos equipped with air-brake capability so they could haul EMU stock to/from places like Eastleigh works ?

To be honest, I don't know. Bearing in mind the IoW railway used the Westinghouse brake, and were part of the SR, it is possible that they might have a couple of equipped locos at Eastleigh. But most of the maintenance of EMUs was done at depots on electrified lines, such as Slade Green and Brighton.

In any case, a train of EMU stock could be worked unbraked to/from Eastleigh as a goods train running at lower speed than as a train of braked stock.

But perhaps we're straying rather far from the OP's original enquiry!

 

[ac6000cw]

But perhaps we're straying rather far from the OP's original enquiry!

Thanks for the thoughts, and yes we are straying

 

[Pigeon]

Certainly never heard of greasing the rails to get the latter operating! Mr Churchward would have had a fit.

It would have been before his time... it was done with very early locomotives that had a feed water pump driven off the axle and no other feed system at all. This being an obviously daft arrangement it wasn't all that long before more intelligent designs replaced it.