Refunds / delay repay after short-notice timetable changes?

[DavyCrocket]

split from here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...perating-from-victoria-until-10th-jan.226551/

I have a season ticket. I am now delayed. There is not any kind of improvement work taking place as the reason for the line to be closed. It’s an absence of them having adequate resources and weaselling out of running a railway

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have a season ticket. I am now delayed. There is not any kind of improvement work taking place as the reason for the line to be closed. It’s an absence of them having adequate resources and weaselling out of running a railway

I assume the global pandemic going on at the moment has escaped your notice?

 

[Bald Rick]

I have a season ticket. I am now delayed. There is not any kind of improvement work taking place as the reason for the line to be closed. It’s an absence of them having adequate resources and weaselling out of running a railway

I’m afraid you weren’t delayed, as the advertised service ran, err, as advertised. Admittedly it was advertised only a few days beforehand.

 

[Surreytraveller]

I’m afraid you weren’t delayed, as the advertised service ran, err, as advertised. Admittedly it was advertised only a few days beforehand.

I do find it somewhat unbelievable that a timetable can be changed with minimal notice and then its claimed that someone hasn't been delayed.
The public time in force when a ticket was bought should be what the delay is compared with!

 

[Jan Mayen]

Apparently, for season ticket holders, it's the timetable advertised at 2200 the day before travel that's used to calculate delay repay.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Apparently, for season ticket holders, it's the timetable advertised at 2200 the day before travel that's used to calculate delay repay.

Even if you've gone to bed by then because you've got to get up early to get to work! Its ludicrous

 

[yorkie]

If you have a single or return ticket, what matters is the timetable/itinerary in place at the time the ticket was purchased.

 

[Bald Rick]

If you have a single or return ticket, what matters is the timetable/itinerary in place at the time the ticket was purchased.

Genuine question - is that the case if you buy a flexible ticket and have no itinerary?

 

[stew]

So I had a Northern delay repay rejected as the train I was intending to use (Dec 19) was removed from the timestables at some point on Dec 18. Northern said the train I got was not delayed (which is correct).

my question is how much notice can a TOC give to remove a train from the previously advertised timetable. For me, the normal Sunday service is a train every two hours. On this date it was amended to a train every 4 hours

 

[Surreytraveller]

So I had a Northern delay repay rejected as the train I was intending to use (Dec 19) was removed from the timestables at some point on Dec 18. Northern said the train I got was not delayed (which is correct).

my question is how much notice can a TOC give to remove a train from the previously advertised timetable. For me, the normal Sunday service is a train every two hours. On this date it was amended to a train every 4 hours

22.00 the day before! Its all PR and political posturing

 

[Failed Unit]

That is a difficult one. I would say yes if the journey you intended to make is not possible. Such as if you were doing Bracknell to Gatwick airport via Clapham junction.

But if the 1515 is cancelled and you need to get either the 1415 or 1615 it could be a challenge.

If you look at some of the LNER changes I hope they would let you route London, when your replacement service doesn’t stop at Stevenage (but then you could argue delay repay because you journey time is increased). Would they force you to change at Peterborough and use GTR?

Gut feeling is you chose to travel so it is rejected. Will watch with interest.

 

[Watershed]

Genuine question - is that the case if you buy a flexible ticket and have no itinerary?

It's not a simple question!

Most Passenger's Charters state that Delay Repay (or similar) - i.e. compensation paid under NRCoT 32.1.1.2 - is determined by reference to any amended timetable published by the night before.

Therefore it is ostensibly the case that you would not be entitled to any Delay Repay if trains ran in accordance with an amended timetable. Whether that position would be upheld in Court (in view of section 50 of the Consumer Rights Act, amongst other provisions) is questionable...

However, there is also a right to compensation where NRCoT minima apply - condition 32.1.1.1. In typically vague fashion, the NRCoT do not give any definition of "delayed", however more importantly they do not contain any exception allowing operators to vary the timetable (for the purpose of calculating delays and hence compensation) as above.

NRCoT minima are certainly a lot less generous than most operators' Delay Repay etc. schemes (you only qualify if the delay is 60+ minutes, and only receive 50% of the relevant portion of your ticket). However, NRCoT 33.4 states that:

A Train Company may not be obliged to pay compensation under this Condition if the cause of the delay was entirely outside the rail industry’s control. Each Train Company’s Passenger’s Charter will set out any exclusions that applies to such claims in respect of their services. However, you are entitled to compensation if the delay was 60 minutes or longer, regardless of fault.

And accordingly the minima apply to wider circumstances.

Of course, if you buy your ticket in conjunction with a particular itinerary, the matter is somewhat more clear-cut. But for TOCs to assert that season ticket holders are not entitled to any compensation or recourse when the timetable is arbitrarily slashed with little or no notice, is in Sir Humphrey's words "courageous"!

Culling trains at 22:00 the night before, to pretend that they "aren't cancelled" and thus don't qualify for Delay Repay or count against KPIs, is one of the railway's most anti-consumer and insupportable practices in my view.

If the government gave a damn about providing passengers with good customer service and fair compensation where the railway falls short - which it plainly does not - it would stamp this practice out immediately.

 

[Bald Rick]

If the government gave a damn about providing passengers with good customer service and compensation where the railway falls short - which it plainly does not - it would stamp this practice out immediately.

I suppose you are then up against the issue of season ticket / flexible ticket holders claiming they were going to catch one of the (planned) cancelled trains when, perhaps, they weren’t. I know that can be done now for trains that do run etc., but on days of planned cancellations there would be a lot more to choose from.

 

[Failed Unit]

I suppose you are then up against the issue of season ticket / flexible ticket holders claiming they were going to catch one of the (planned) cancelled trains when, perhaps, they weren’t. I know that can be done now for trains that do run etc., but on days of planned cancellations there would be a lot more to choose from.

Be interesting how they handle Victoria commuting. They can prove they all use Victoria normally. The can prove it is slower then via London Bridge (if they are heading to Victoria). We will see.

 

[Bald Rick]

Be interesting how they handle Victoria commuting. They can prove they all use Victoria normally. The can prove it is slower then via London Bridge (if they are heading to Victoria). We will see.

It will be interesting, but is it not effectively the same regime as for the engineering works for the 10 days prior, just with less advanced notice?

 

[Watershed]

I suppose you are then up against the issue of season ticket / flexible ticket holders claiming they were going to catch one of the (planned) cancelled trains when, perhaps, they weren’t. I know that can be done now for trains that do run etc., but on days of planned cancellations there would be a lot more to choose from.

There are ways and means. See, for example, the compensation scheme which GTR introduced following the May 2018 fiasco; similarly over at Northern. It may not strictly speaking meet their legal obligations, but the vast majority of people would be perfectly satisfied by it.

And certainly more satisfied than with the current attitude of "you can get a refund if you don't want to travel, or else you can continue to pay 100% of the fare for 50% [or less, in some cases] of the service".

 

[Haywain]

So I had a Northern delay repay rejected as the train I was intending to use (Dec 19) was removed from the timestables at some point on Dec 18. Northern said the train I got was not delayed (which is correct).

my question is how much notice can a TOC give to remove a train from the previously advertised timetable. For me, the normal Sunday service is a train every two hours. On this date it was amended to a train every 4 hours

When did you buy the ticket?

 

[stew]

When did you buy the ticket?

It was an open return. So outward was bought and used on Dec 12, return had a 1 month validity. I did not (as I recall) have a booked trip for the return portion

 

[infobleep]

It will be interesting, but is it not effectively the same regime as for the engineering works for the 10 days prior, just with less advanced notice?

I guess what matters is how far in advance the notice was in the timetable and when the person purchased the ticket.

The engineering works may have been in the timetable earlier in advance so fewer people holding tickets for journeys they then couldn't make as planned.

 

[greatkingrat]

What about if a season ticket holder has obtained a reservation for a particular service before it was cancelled? Does that make a difference?

 

[infobleep]

What about if a season ticket holder has obtained a reservation for a particular service before it was cancelled? Does that make a difference?

I would argue yes because you can show your intent to use that service prior to it being cancelled.

 

[robbeech]

Agreed although many of these ‘commuter’ services are unreservable so you would have mixed luck.

 

[Starmill]

I think that it's very clear that the timetable shown at the time that you buy your ticket is critical if you base your decision to buy it on that information. I would think that is true in most cases.

In the case of a season ticket the timetable cannot be meaningfully degraded while also insisting on the other terms of the original contract, such as the £10 fee and restrictive rules for a refund for example. So at the very minimum, if an emergency timetable is required after the ticket has been bought, you could rely on your common law rights to return the ticket and request a free pro rated refund (i.e. it would be more generous than NRCoT refund section states). Stations may well not be able to accurately calculate that though, I don't know.

If you still need to travel, you might need to approach the above quite differently.