Reinstating a passenger service

[No1 Box]

Wondered about this for years, seems (to me) more relevant as the years go by, hoping the good folk on here have got a few thoughts.

Bit of background first even though I suspect some of you will know this better than me. Till about 25 years ago the Blackburn – Hellifield line had been a freight only line for years. About half way along the route is a big cement works that has always been a source of freight (and still is) but the line has always been a fairly important through route so services can avoid the West Coast route (Preston – Shap – Carlisle) using the Settle + Carlisle instead.

Back in the 90s a passenger service was reinstated, but only as a branch line service from Blackburn – Clitheroe. There’s currently about an hourly service, with trains terminating at Clitheroe and using the cement works ‘branch’ junction (Horrocksford Jn) to crossover lines and keep to right line working. The only exception being on Sundays when there’s a service that works through to Hellifield and on to Carlisle and return.

So to my question : can you think of reasons why there aren’t a couple of through services each day (say to Settle or Skipton) giving Manchester/East Lancs rail access to the S + C/West Yorks? I’m pretty sure the Clitheroe – Hellifield section (about 15 miles) is double track throughout and is used by a handful of freight services each day. With tourism/leisure becoming more of a factor than it used to be, if it’s purely a commercial reason why all weekday services terminate at Clitheroe would it be a possibility that the TOC (Northern Rail?) could re-consider a small number of through trains?

 

[adrock1976]

I feel that as a starting point maybe to have an experimental service extending from Clitheroe to Hellifield every 2 hours, which would ideally be timed to connect with the Carlisle trains.

I do recall there being a Leeds/London facing bay platform at Hellifield, but sadly there is no track for that platform as it got lifted.

Being as it is 13.5 miles from Clitheroe to Hellifield (according to Railmiles), this would require one extra train based on a return trip (27 miles) and assuming a very conservative average speed of 30 mph from Clitheroe to Hellified, giving a 54 minute round trip. Although in this hypothetical scenario (I am sure that the line speed is greater than 30mph), this would give a 6 minute layover at Hellifield. Based on a conservative 45mph line speed, this changes to a 40.5 minutes round trip, with a 19-20 minute layover at Hellifield which would mean more robustness and also meeting the Leeds-Carlisle trains in both directions as they normally pass each other between at some point between Skipton and Settle if I remember right.

 

[30907]

This comes up regularly on the forum.
It would require an extra unit, and a Clitheroe-Skipton would require signalling alterations at Hellifield.
I think the best use of said unit would be a 2hourly (Manchester-) Blackburn-Hellifield, as this might increase Ribble Valley revenue, whereas frankly I don't think either Manchester/Blackburn-S and C OR Blackburn-Ribble Valley-Skipton will do much business, and there's nowhere significant en route (Chatburn perhaps?). A pity really.

 

[randyrippley]

during the summer I suspect a circular route would attract a fair number of walkers, linking east and north lancs.
Morecambe-Carnforth-Hellifield-Clitheroe-Preston-Lancaster-Morecambe and reverse.
That more or less encircles Bowland, linking numerous tourist attractions and walking routes. Run it as a two-hourly service in each direction

 

[No1 Box]

You’re right about a bay platform but I’d imagine it’d be fairly pricy to reinstate that and nice though it might be I don’t think it’d be needed or justified yet.

Yep I suppose there’s no sizeable places between Clitheroe and Hellifield but taking a positive view that means no major investment rebuilding stations!

That’s a decent idea for a circular service : I hadn’t got as far as looking at timings but had thought any new service would connect with either Carlisle or Morecambe trains but that’s a good bit of thinking.

Did I read somewhere on here that there’s work due shortly on all the signalling beyond Skipton?

I’d heard talk of rebuilding the Colne – Skipton line but I bet that would cost hundreds of millions so it seems a no brainer if there’s already a ready-made alternative.

Apologies if this has been discussed before (I’d had a look around but couldn’t find anything). I suppose what it boils down to is would there need to be any big capital investments needed before a trial could be done and it looks like there wouldn’t. Is that fair?

 

[30907]

during the summer I suspect a circular route would attract a fair number of walkers, linking east and north lancs.
Morecambe-Carnforth-Hellifield-Clitheroe-Preston-Lancaster-Morecambe and reverse.
That more or less encircles Bowland, linking numerous tourist attractions and walking routes. Run it as a two-hourly service in each direction

Rather a long walk into the best bits of Bowland (and hardly any buses).

You’re right about a bay platform but I’d imagine it’d be fairly pricy to reinstate that and nice though it might be I don’t think it’d be needed or justified yet.

Agreed, but you've still got to resignal to permit Skipton-Clitheroe.

 

[edwin_m]

Blackburn already has an hourly service to Bradford and Leeds via Burnley, and this service would be much less direct. So it would have to justify its existence on much smaller markets like Blackburn-Skipton and Clitheroe-Leeds (the latter might be quicker changing at Blackburn anyway). It is also in competition with the proposal to reopen Colne-Skipton which would provide an alternative for many of the same flows.

 

[No1 Box]

Any idea how far that Colne – Skipton proposal has got? I’d vaguely heard about it but that’s about the extent of my knowledge! The idea/area hardly strikes me as a potential gold mine and it would cost a pretty penny. Maybe there’s somewhere I could read up on it? If it did go ahead, agree it seems much better as an E Lancs - W Yorks link.

Anyway back to those first thoughts….. there doesn’t seem to be any showstoppers or major plus points. Strikes me as something that could be trialled without any big changes or investments, wonder what role bodies like Community Rail Lancs have to play, maybe approaching them wouldn’t do any harm.

 

[AndyHudds]

Any idea how far that Colne – Skipton proposal has got? I’d vaguely heard about it but that’s about the extent of my knowledge! The idea/area hardly strikes me as a potential gold mine and it would cost a pretty penny. Maybe there’s somewhere I could read up on it? If it did go ahead, agree it seems much better as an E Lancs - W Yorks link.

Anyway back to those first thoughts….. there doesn’t seem to be any showstoppers or major plus points. Strikes me as something that could be trialled without any big changes or investments, wonder what role bodies like Community Rail Lancs have to play, maybe approaching them wouldn’t do any harm.

The reinstatement of the Colne Skipton has gathered momentum with freight backing it as a route through to Drax/Ferrybridge with a passenger service as an extra. Whether it will ever get the green light who knows?

There has long been a desire by some for access from Manchester to the S&C, I assume it would serve the leisure market more than anything else but again it's all guesswork on passenger numbers.

 

[cactustwirly]

The reinstatement of the Colne Skipton has gathered momentum with freight backing it as a route through to Drax/Ferrybridge with a passenger service as an extra. Whether it will ever get the green light who knows?

There has long been a desire by some for access from Manchester to the S&C, I assume it would serve the leisure market more than anything else but again it's all guesswork on passenger numbers.

Given that Ferrybridge is now closed, and Drax only has a few years left, I'd say it has a very slim chance of reopening

 

[AndyHudds]

Given that Ferrybridge is now closed, and Drax only has a few years left, I'd say it has a very slim chance of reopening

Huh? There are no plans to close Drax as far as I'm aware unless I've missed something?They are converting it to Biomass to move away from coal.

 

[No1 Box]

After looking into this then approaching a few bodies, I took it to the TOC who responded with ‘interesting’ and something they hadn’t heard before. Of course they raised a few obstacles (eg an extra service to Clitheroe daily) but no ‘hard stops’. Maybe I’m too optimistic!

Taking randyrippley’s basic idea and without going into detail, the basic suggestion was for a couple of trains per day to continue past Clitheroe then on through Bentham and Carnforth to Morecambe. Those units would operate a return each time and timings look like they could fit into the existing Bentham and Clitheroe Line timetables. If anyone wants more detail send me a private message and mention if there’s any particular subject of interest.

Anyway, any thoughts how to move this forward rather than just let it fizzle out? Ta

 

[Iskra]

After looking into this then approaching a few bodies, I took it to the TOC who responded with ‘interesting’ and something they hadn’t heard before. Of course they raised a few obstacles (eg an extra service to Clitheroe daily) but no ‘hard stops’. Maybe I’m too optimistic!

Taking randyrippley’s basic idea and without going into detail, the basic suggestion was for a couple of trains per day to continue past Clitheroe then on through Bentham and Carnforth to Morecambe. Those units would operate a return each time and timings look like they could fit into the existing Bentham and Clitheroe Line timetables. If anyone wants more detail send me a private message and mention if there’s any particular subject of interest.

Anyway, any thoughts how to move this forward rather than just let it fizzle out? Ta

I assume you mentioned it to the Friends of the Settle and Carlisle? Now would be a really good time to mention it to MP's or candidates. The Skipton-Colne group may have some interest in this too, contacts who could assist you, or they could publicise it for you.

Extending to Hellifield would be a simple and good idea and open up the Dales to the people of Manchester and East Lancashire, plus provide a lot more connectivity and open up new local journey opportunities (when there are spare units available).

If you want to go further, perhaps set up a facebook page/twitter account or website detailing your proposal.

 

[Bevan Price]

Chatburn population about 1300
Gisburn 500
Hellifield 1400

None large enough to support a viable rail service on their own. The only thing that might work would be a limited (3 or 4 per day) service from Manchester to Carlisle - as portions combining at Hellifield with Leeds to Carlisle services - and maybe initially only in summer (when there are a lot more tourists.)

 

[Meerkat]

Where else can they turn trains?
I would have thought the market would want direct trains to Settle and Horton (maybe Ribblehead for the viaduct walks - they can turn on the other side can’t they?)

 

[30907]

Where else can they turn trains?
I would have thought the market would want direct trains to Settle and Horton (maybe Ribblehead for the viaduct walks - they can turn on the other side can’t they?)

Blea Moor is the first opportunity after Settle Jn.
The question, of course, is what size the market is, because even if there is no capital cost, there are still running costs to cover.
I wonder if a unit could be sourced from Northern's fleet (as planned) for a Saturday service?

 

[Meerkat]

Blea Moor is the first opportunity after Settle Jn.
The question, of course, is what size the market is, because even if there is no capital cost, there are still running costs to cover.
I wonder if a unit could be sourced from Northern's fleet (as planned) for a Saturday service?

i was just doubting the market for Hellifield - nothing there and would you want to risk connections there? If you could offer direct Manchester to the hills it might be worth it, but probably only at weekends.
Though Hellifield has decent road access and rail potential, and is just outside the park.....maybe a new town development!

 

[No1 Box]

Thanks for the ideas gents, keep em coming!

Without going into detail, the suggestion is basically to extend a couple of the normal Rochdale – Clitheroe services to run to Lancaster/Morecambe, connecting with Leeds – Carlisle trains at Hellifield. The two services would do the return trip too and timings largely work with current services for both directions.

Fair comment about population but it gives Manchester access to the S + C and the Forest of Bowland.

A couple of issues : it’d need one DMU (cos the Rochdale – Citheroe service currently works back from Clitheroe) and I think there’d need to be a crew/driver change (at Hellifield?) cos the Bentham and Ribble Valley routes aren’t ‘known’ to each other. But are either of those things terminal?

 

[30907]

The Bentham line now has a generous service for the traffic on offer, so I would stick with Hellifield or Blea Moor as the turnround (I assume that Carlisle is more difficult to crew because of journey time?).

At the moment a unit seems to be booked spare at Blackburn 1015-1715 and from, and if stock workings could be rejigged to have it spare an hour earlier, you could test the market with departures from Blackburn 0915, 1115, 1515 and 1815 (extending the existing terminators). Of course that has implications for maintenance, and with Northern's present problems it's a bit pie in the sky!

 

[randyrippley]

Clitheroe - Lancaster?
Has to be called "The Witches Line". Marketed properly could be an interesting tourist route with traffic starting at both ends.
How long would Manchester-Morecambe take? Just thinking it could be a feeder to the Eden Project when it opens in Morecambe

 

[30907]

Clitheroe - Lancaster?
Has to be called "The Witches Line". Marketed properly could be an interesting tourist route with traffic starting at both ends.

A "trial" service?

BTW Manchester-Morecambe via Hellifield would take about 3hr.

 

[adamedwards]

As this is all speculation, is Manchester - Appleby via Hellifield any better?

It covers the scenic part of the line, which sells return tickets, could be used in conjunction with coach tours so they don't fill up the regular trains and could run between the regular service (summer only trial?) to increase the options for hikers. If possible (no idea) timed to pick up from Hellifield after the Leeds-Morcambe train has passed to provide an extra Leeds to Appleby option.

I am assuming there is no need for a train to Carlisle this way as TPE provide a faster and scenic service via Shap.

 

[30907]

As this is all speculation, is Manchester - Appleby via Hellifield any better?

It covers the scenic part of the line, which sells return tickets, could be used in conjunction with coach tours so they don't fill up the regular trains and could run between the regular service (summer only trial?) to increase the options for hikers.

An interesting variation - with the timetable I suggested upthread, you could manage a couple of useful Manchester-Blackburn-Appleby returns in marginal time; the first northbound would be particularly useful in relieving the Leeds trains.

 

[Clip]

Without going into detail, the suggestion is basically to extend a couple of the normal Rochdale – Clitheroe services to run to Lancaster/Morecambe, connecting with Leeds – Carlisle trains at Hellifield. The two services would do the return trip too and timings largely work with current services for both directions.

Going to need more stock to do that surely due to the extended journey times? Where are they coming from?

 

[No1 Box]

Regarding the stock, timings work so the return (Morecambe - Clitheroe) workings could form a service to Rochdale/Manchester. So whilst it would need some stock, it's only one unit for one service. 30907, is there somewhere I can see these 'spare' units? Do you have some cunning way of working this out?

As Iskra suggested, I contacted the Friends of the Settle - Carlisle (FOSCL) and that looks promising - ta. I expect they'd be more interested in a service to Appleby rather than Lancaster/Morecambe so maybe that's something to look into. I'd vaguely heard about the Eden Project but I hadn't connected it with this - ta.

 

[6Gman]

Regarding the stock, timings work so the return (Morecambe - Clitheroe) workings could form a service to Rochdale/Manchester. So whilst it would need some stock, it's only one unit for one service. 30907, is there somewhere I can see these 'spare' units? Do you have some cunning way of working this out?

As Iskra suggested, I contacted the Friends of the Settle - Carlisle (FOSCL) and that looks promising - ta. I expect they'd be more interested in a service to Appleby rather than Lancaster/Morecambe so maybe that's something to look into. I'd vaguely heard about the Eden Project but I hadn't connected it with this - ta.

You say that the "timings work". Can you explain how? If you extend a Manchester - Clitheroe to Hellifield/ Appleby/ Morecambe or anywhere what picks up the return working from Clitheroe? And when your service returns from H/A/M does it avoid clashing with an existing service south of Clitheroe?

 

[No1 Box]

Timings - to take one example, there's a current Rochdale - Clitheroe service gets in to CLH at 0956. Extend that to Morecambe and it'll arrive about 1130. Few mins to turn around and it can do the return (current deps from MCM are 1033 and 1232) and it'd arr Clitheroe about 1305. There's currently a Clitheroe - Rochdale service dep CLH at 1321, so it doesn't take too much re-jigging for the train from MCM to form that.

 

[6Gman]

Timings - to take one example, there's a current Rochdale - Clitheroe service gets in to CLH at 0956. Extend that to Morecambe and it'll arrive about 1130. Few mins to turn around and it can do the return (current deps from MCM are 1033 and 1232) and it'd arr Clitheroe about 1305. There's currently a Clitheroe - Rochdale service dep CLH at 1321, so it doesn't take too much re-jigging for the train from MCM to form that.

Yes, but what works the 1021 Clitheroe - Manchester?

And what do you do with the unit that arrives 1256 at Clitheroe?

 

[30907]

Regarding the stock, timings work so the return (Morecambe - Clitheroe) workings could form a service to Rochdale/Manchester. So whilst it would need some stock, it's only one unit for one service. 30907, is there somewhere I can see these 'spare' units? Do you have some cunning way of working this out?

Look on Realtimetrains detailed view for Blackburn and you can see the movements to and from the new King Street depot.
BTW when you are looking at Settle Jn-Carnforth, remember that it is one long block section!

 

[No1 Box]

It’d be nice if there was a perfect ‘No1 Box idea’ shaped hole so everything fitted with no extra costs etc. Sadly reality isn’t like that and though things fit better than anticipated there’s bound to be extra staffing costs, an odd empty stock train etc. 6Gman, did you see an earlier post that mentioned ‘whilst it would need some stock, it's only one unit for one service’? You can guess when that is. Still, any constructive or general comments welcome.

Thanks 30907, that’s one long section, didn’t know that! I’d looked on RTT to see if there was something like a CLH – BBN empty stock service I could ‘re-employ’ but there wasn’t. I hadn’t delved as deep as you to see a spare in Blackburn. By the way do you know if it’s ‘allowed’ to use the Horrocksford branch as somewhere to hold empty stock for say 30 – 60 mins? If things need reworking that might be handy rather than running an empty train to Blackburn.