Removal of class 175s from North West routes - shortsighted?

[Philip]

It's about a decade now since class 185s took over the same turns towards the Lakes and Blackpool which 175s had been working since the early 2000s. Did the DfT or SRA (whoever it was) make a big mistake in all honesty by giving full use of the fleet to ATW?

I'm thinking along the lines of the very stretched fleet TPE have had to work with over the last decade, not helped by having to send 185s to Scotland soon after they took over North West duties. The 185s were built principally for the real Pennine routes, to replace the 158s. As well as that, there was a reduction in seats on services which saw a booked 3-car 175 replaced with a 3-car 185 following the transfer.

From the ATW point of view, they have given their existing 158 fleet an excellent refurbishment and as a result a long journey on an ATW 158 isn't much worse now than on a 175. If ATW had kept all of the 158s they originally had, then there'd have been more scope for doubling up the busier Marches and North Wales diagrams to allow 4-car running, with end-gangways.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It was all part of the establishment of TPE as a notional inter-city TOC with 1st class.
The settlement agreed by the SRA basically allowed a new dedicated larger fleet to be bought, with the non-1st-class 175s being cascaded to ATW.
This was pretty much dictated by their maintenance base being at Chester and contracted out to Alstom.
It also avoided having to buy new stock for ATW.
Locally, it meant that 175s, which were meant to run all services through and west of Chester, found themselves on the Marches/South Wales routes.
So in North Wales we got 2-car 150s/158s back instead of (at least some) trains being 3-car 175s.

It's a pity the 175/180 fleets (originally procured by FirstGroup as a single order for FGW/FNW) were not managed in one place for the long term.
Now the 180s are coming free, they could have been used on Marches services and all maintained at Chester.
But we have a fragmented Coradia fleet with all the micro-fleet disadvantages.

 

[PHILIPE]

It's about a decade now since class 185s took over the same turns towards the Lakes and Blackpool which 175s had been working since the early 2000s. Did the DfT or SRA (whoever it was) make a big mistake in all honesty by giving full use of the fleet to ATW?

I'm thinking along the lines of the very stretched fleet TPE have had to work with over the last decade, not helped by having to send 185s to Scotland soon after they took over North West duties. The 185s were built principally for the real Pennine routes, to replace the 158s. As well as that, there was a reduction in seats on services which saw a booked 3-car 175 replaced with a 3-car 185 following the transfer.

From the ATW point of view, they have given their existing 158 fleet an excellent refurbishment and as a result a long journey on an ATW 158 isn't much worse now than on a 175. If ATW had kept all of the 158s they originally had, then there'd have been more scope for doubling up the busier Marches and North Wales diagrams to allow 4-car running, with end-gangways.

It proved in the end that the 175s were only working in the North West on a temporary basis until the 185s became available. Where would all the 158s come from to double up on the Marches because despite moving stock around you've still got the same number overall at the end of the day. Good idea though and they would be suited to the route.

 

[IanXC]

It's a pity the 175/180 fleets (originally procured by FirstGroup as a single order for FGW/FNW) were not managed in one place for the long term.
Now the 180s are coming free, they could have been used on Marches services and all maintained at Chester.
But we have a fragmented Coradia fleet with all the micro-fleet disadvantages.

There is an opportunity coming up for ATW to enhance its fleet.

The 4 Hull Trains 180s (and potentially one more, I'm unclear whether GC have an additional 4 or 5 in their long term plans) will be becoming available.

We will see whether there is the appetite, perhaps in the next Wales and Borders franchise, for 180s to replace the locohauled stock currently in use.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There is an opportunity coming up for ATW to enhance its fleet.
The 4 Hull Trains 180s (and potentially one more, I'm unclear whether GC have an additional 4 or 5 in their long term plans) will be becoming available.
We will see whether there is the appetite, perhaps in the next Wales and Borders franchise, for 180s to replace the locohauled stock currently in use.

Against that there is the expiry of the maintenance deal with Alstom coming up, and there may not be much enthusiasm to keep Coradias after all the issues with them.
I think their long-term prospects are poor.
It might be a toss up between the 175/180s and the off-lease 185s.
There aren't really enough of either.
XC might be a temporary home for spare 180s.

 

[Philip]

Were they really only intended as a stop-gap on North West services until the 185s arrived? I thought the whole TPE deal happened a good while after 175s started operations? There was a lot of publicity surrounding their arrival on routes like Manchester Airport to Blackpool from what I remember.

What's more I really don't think the Blackpool/Cumbria services ever needed a first class option. In terms of capacity, the 185 replacing 175 was a step down on all of the services which were previously booked as a 3-car 175 working.

 

[43096]

Against that there is the expiry of the maintenance deal with Alstom coming up, and there may not be much enthusiasm to keep Coradias after all the issues with them.

I think their long-term prospects are poor.

It might be a toss up between the 175/180s and the off-lease 185s.

There aren't really enough of either.

XC might be a temporary home for spare 180s.

They'd be mad getting rid of the 175s. Druid Rail is miles behind with PRM compliance - to the extent that they have little chance if hitting the deadline as it is, without getting rid of their only fleet that is compliant. Utterly bonkers doing that.

 

[a_c_skinner]

To an outsider the problems look to be the result of franchising being the repeated ordering of small incompatible fleets and the inability to decide if TP is an intercity operator, Leeds and Manchester commuting or simply the rump of some of Northern's longer routes. Perhaps the new split of Northern, Northern Connect and TP will help that, but the proliferation of types is worsened not helped. The fact that stock orders seem now totally tied to re-letting doesn't help as both TP and Northern seem to some extent to be stuck with what they can actually get built.

Oh and overcrowding, with solutions that will only go part way to solving it. To me exactly where the stock that makes up this mess is allocated is a subsidiary point.

Andrew

 

[PHILIPE]

They'd be mad getting rid of the 175s. Druid Rail is miles behind with PRM compliance - to the extent that they have little chance if hitting the deadline as it is, without getting rid of their only fleet that is compliant. Utterly bonkers doing that.

The Welsh Government were tipped off about PRM as far back as 2013 but have done nothing about it.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The Welsh Government were tipped off about PRM as far back as 2013 but have done nothing about it.

Don't worry about them accepting any responsibility it will be "the other boys fault".

 

[Gareth Marston]

Against that there is the expiry of the maintenance deal with Alstom coming up, and there may not be much enthusiasm to keep Coradias after all the issues with them.
I think their long-term prospects are poor.
It might be a toss up between the 175/180s and the off-lease 185s.
There aren't really enough of either.
XC might be a temporary home for spare 180s.

One bidder has hinted at there being an opportunity to move away from 175's for the new franchise.

 

[Reliablebeam]

One bidder has hinted at there being an opportunity to move away from 175's for the new franchise.

Oh dear, let me guess, more 158's? I remenber well the 'new' class 150 cast offs touted as new trains for Valley lines when arriva took over.

This is my first actual post here after lurking for a couple of years lurking but i think a Welshman needs to defend our trains from our covetous neighbours! I am sympathetic towards the issues with 185s and if you don't want them i'm sure something can be done across the border. Im not really sure a few extra seats on a 3 car 175 are going to sort your problems, that really need an extra carriage or a bespoke solution. To my mind the 175s are well adapted to north wales. The issue of them being diagrammed on them micky mouse north south wales trains is another matter, but I suppose it is better than the rot pile 158s with their revolting cramped interior and lethargic performance that also get put on it. I await with baited breath what them clowns in Cardiff come up with, given their track record you may get what you wish!

 

[CosherB]

Oh dear, let me guess, more 158's? I remenber well the 'new' class 150 cast offs touted as new trains for Valley lines when arriva took over.

This is my first actual post here after lurking for a couple of years lurking but i think a Welshman needs to defend our trains from our covetous neighbours! I am sympathetic towards the issues with 185s and if you don't want them i'm sure something can be done across the border. Im not really sure a few extra seats on a 3 car 175 are going to sort your problems, that really need an extra carriage or a bespoke solution. To my mind the 175s are well adapted to north wales. The issue of them being diagrammed on them micky mouse north south wales trains is another matter, but I suppose it is better than the rot pile 158s with their revolting cramped interior and lethargic performance that also get put on it. I await with baited breath what them clowns in Cardiff come up with, given their track record you may get what you wish!

Welcome to the forum. So you don't like 158s?

 

[Reliablebeam]

Welcome to the forum. So you don't like 158s?

Thanks, and no not in the least! I see how they were a good stop gap in the 80s/90s but now, unsuitable for many routes they're deployed on. I'm quite bitter at how the routes I use back to my hometown have been downgraded to them.

 

[Philip]

Doubled up 158 workings to make 4-coach trains with walk-through would be pretty good for the services out of Manchester, both to North and South Wales. Capacity boost over 175s; nicely refurbished; corridor connections to allow walk-through; able to make use of SP speeds. I'm thinking of similar arrangement to the Cambrian service formations. More 158s would obviously need to be acquired first and the 175s would probably have to go elsewhere as part of the deal.

 

[Gareth Marston]

With the SWT 158/159 fleet staying there theirs only one possible source of 158's for ATW that's EMT however the winner of the EMT and the fate of their 158's will not be known until after the final bids are put in for Wales and Borders so no one will factor them in. I can confidently predict that extra 158's will not feature. Indeed I suspect given how franchsie bids work well end up with a fleet of DMU's with no home.........

might even be the 175's...

 

[tiptoptaff]

Acquisition of extra 158s for ATW would benefit them as they could fit them with ERTMS and then the whole of the long-distance fleet would work any and all long-distance routes. The fact that 158s have to be used on the Cambrian means that there are often short forms on 158 diagrams that don't traverse it (including the South Wales only ones)

Extra 158s would be a good idea, but you would need to run them in 6car formations on the Marches, 4cars may be enough now but you have to allow for growth, as this franchise did not!

 

[Parallel]

Acquisition of extra 158s for ATW would benefit them as they could fit them with ERTMS and then the whole of the long-distance fleet would work any and all long-distance routes. The fact that 158s have to be used on the Cambrian means that there are often short forms on 158 diagrams that don't traverse it (including the South Wales only ones)

Extra 158s would be a good idea, but you would need to run them in 6car formations on the Marches, 4cars may be enough now but you have to allow for growth, as this franchise did not!

There are also plenty of short forms on the Cambrian diagrams too - Notably between Birmingham Intl and Shrewsbury (2 car instead of 4) and the peaks (4 car instead of 6) and also between Shrewsbury and Machynlleth (2 instead of 4; Pwllheli service starts from Machynlleth instead).

I think, even in the future, 6 car 158s on the Marches would be overkill. There's a lot that this new franchise needs to sort though.

 

[Philip]

Could some/all of the 158s at Northern or ScotRail be a possibility? With 175s going to Northern as a direct replacement for 158s heading to Wales?

 

[craigybagel]

I'm trying to be objective here but given how much I loathe working on 158's it's pretty hard - suffice to say I'm glad we got all of the 175s.

Extra 158s would be a good idea, but you would need to run them in 6car formations on the Marches, 4cars may be enough now but you have to allow for growth, as this franchise did not!

Ah this old chestnut again, about the Marches being overcrowded. Trust me, for most services on that route, 3 cars are more than enough (indeed, those services that are booked for 2 cars cope perfectly fine outside of event days). There are only a handful of services that require any more than 3 cars but certainly none that need 6. They woudn't fit on most of the platforms anyway......

 

[Gareth Marston]

Acquisition of extra 158s for ATW would benefit them as they could fit them with ERTMS and then the whole of the long-distance fleet would work any and all long-distance routes. The fact that 158s have to be used on the Cambrian means that there are often short forms on 158 diagrams that don't traverse it (including the South Wales only ones)

Extra 158s would be a good idea, but you would need to run them in 6car formations on the Marches, 4cars may be enough now but you have to allow for growth, as this franchise did not!

But no one is releasing 158's.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Could some/all of the 158s at Northern or ScotRail be a possibility? With 175s going to Northern as a direct replacement for 158s heading to Wales?

I don't think anyone will want the maintainence headache of that small fleet being spli up. Anyway Northern and ScotRail have signed their franchise and rolling stock deals already. You can't shuffle rolling stock around in the current system it's all contracted and sealed in as per franchise winning bid.

 

[Parallel]

I'm trying to be objective here but given how much I loathe working on 158's it's pretty hard - suffice to say I'm glad we got all of the 175s.

Just out of interest (if you don't mind me asking), why do you prefer working the 175s over the 158s?

As a passenger, 175s aren't bad (They offer good leg room) but I prefer the 158s (Although the aircon isn't as reliable, I think they offer a better ride quality).

 

[Gareth Marston]

I'm trying to be objective here but given how much I loathe working on 158's it's pretty hard - suffice to say I'm glad we got all of the 175s.



Ah this old chestnut again, about the Marches being overcrowded. Trust me, for most services on that route, 3 cars are more than enough (indeed, those services that are booked for 2 cars cope perfectly fine outside of event days). There are only a handful of services that require any more than 3 cars but certainly none that need 6. They woudn't fit on most of the platforms anyway......

I've only had 5 175 rides in the last year. All of which involved Shrewsbury to Manchester at non peak times or going counter flow. The 1630 from Poccadily was a 2 car a couple of Saturday's ago and there were people standing rest of time ok. I've ridden the 1630 on weekday when it's been 3 car in the past and overcrowded.

 

[Reliablebeam]

I'm trying to be objective here but given how much I loathe working on 158's it's pretty hard - suffice to say I'm glad we got all of the 175s.



Ah this old chestnut again, about the Marches being overcrowded. Trust me, for most services on that route, 3 cars are more than enough (indeed, those services that are booked for 2 cars cope perfectly fine outside of event days). There are only a handful of services that require any more than 3 cars but certainly none that need 6. They woudn't fit on most of the platforms anyway......

I'd tend to agree, I know this line well and I think six car would be overkill. There are some local hotspots for crowding at certain times of the day. I stick to my suggestion that Wales and the borders need some form of bespoke solution for their long haul services, something along the lines of a 175 or 180. Is there the political will or money for this? Well.... In the meantime I think the 175s serve certainly North Wales pretty well.

 

[bramling]

I'd tend to agree, I know this line well and I think six car would be overkill. There are some local hotspots for crowding at certain times of the day. I stick to my suggestion that Wales and the borders need some form of bespoke solution for their long haul services, something along the lines of a 175 or 180. Is there the political will or money for this? Well.... In the meantime I think the 175s serve certainly North Wales pretty well.

Yes agreed, the 175s are a nice train to use, their only issue for me is that they're too short, particularly the 2-car versions, although they use the interior space more effectively than others (cough..185s!).

What would be the scope for merging the 175 and 180 fleets, and moving some intermediate cars out of the 180s to make all the 175s up to 3-car?

 

[thenorthern]

The Class 175s I think I was told were designed to compete with the Class 170s but in the end only First North Western ordered them.

To be honest I don't think they have been as successful as Alstom wanted I don't think as they had some teething problems when introduced which I think put other operators off. The Class 180s are similar in that they even to this day are the only Diesel-Hydraulic high speed trains (the other 125mph capable diesel stock is diesel-electric) but they have never really been much of a success.

 

[craigybagel]

Just out of interest (if you don't mind me asking), why do you prefer working the 175s over the 158s?
As a passenger, 175s aren't bad (They offer good leg room) but I prefer the 158s (Although the aircon isn't as reliable, I think they offer a better ride quality).

In general, 175s are a lot more reliable. 158s are much more prone to little niggly faults that won't stop the job completely but are a pain to deal with as a guard (the air con is a prime example, but there are many others). It is true that when fully working a 158 does give a better passenger experience than a 175, but only because they've been refurbished - bar the seats being recovered, the 175s have basically not been touched since new. If they get refurbished to the same high standard the 158s got, they'll be a much better experience.

I've only had 5 175 rides in the last year. All of which involved Shrewsbury to Manchester at non peak times or going counter flow. The 1630 from Poccadily was a 2 car a couple of Saturday's ago and there were people standing rest of time ok. I've ridden the 1630 on weekday when it's been 3 car in the past and overcrowded.

As long as the 1630 has the 3 coaches it's booked for, it's usually fine. Occasionally there are a small amount of passengers standing on departure from Manchester, but by wilmslow everybody should have a seat. I admit that as a 2 car it struggles but ATW have done a very good job of matching diagrams to needed train lengths and that service is booked for 3.

Edit to say I've just noticed you were taking about Saturdays - I can't remember if it's booked for 2 or 3 on a Saturday but if the former I would expect it to cope on a normal day - but struggle if either Manchester side has a 1230 kick off or there's some other special event taking place, which does complicate matters at the weekend.

 

[Philip]

How do the 17:30 and 18:30 services cope?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Going back to the original thread title I know the moving of the 175's rankle with some in the North West but you have to remember we had a period from the Hatfield accident up to Adonis's arrival where the Govt/SRA/DfT just tried to keep a lid on the railways and keep them out the news. Long term planning was thrown out the window and they were essentially in denial about passenger growth a lot of mistakes that are still with us were made. It wasn't just the North West that suffered.

Talking of 175's and their routes from Manchester to N Wales or Manchester/Cardiff to West Wales or Holyhead to Cardiff we forget that the busiest Long Distance DMU route ATW operate is the Shrewsbury to BHM INTL end of the Holyhead/Cambrian trains.
Its the only route they operate 6 car DMU formations and most trains are 4 car DMU's east of Shrewsbury. ATW's into/out Birmingham trains are far busier than their Manchester or Cardiff long distance trains.