RENFE aims to compete with Eurostar on Paris – London route

[Jorge Da Silva]

RENFE aims to compete with Eurostar on Paris – London route

EUROPE: Spanish national rail operator RENFE is developing plans for a Paris - London train service which would compete with Eurostar and provide it with an alternative route into the French passenger market. RENFE believes that the launch of a Paris - London service would be ...

www.railwaygazette.com

EUROPE: Spanish national rail operator RENFE is developing plans for a Paris – London train service which would compete with Eurostar and provide it with an alternative route into the French passenger market.

RENFE believes that the launch of a Paris – London service would be supported by Channel Tunnel operator Eurotunnel and UK high speed line infrastructure manager HS1 Ltd, and would help to provide it with a route into the French domestic market.

RENFE has been seeking to operate Paris – Lyon – Marseille high speed trains, but is reported to have run into difficulties obtaining information from the French regulator and national incumbent SNCF, meaning that it has not been able to obtain the required approvals.

Meanwhile, SNCF Voyages has been operating Ouigo-branded Madrid – Barcelona services in competition with RENFE since May this year.

RENFE told Railway Gazette International on October 26 that there are train paths available and the capacity to operate cross-Channel services. Its demand analysis suggested that it would be viable and profitable to compete with Eurostar.

The operator said there had been 9 million trips between Paris and London in 2019, with 7 million by Eurostar. Traffic was growing before the pandemic, and RENFE expects ridership to recover next year. Its proposed service is expected to be profitable from the fourth year, and a second phase would see services extended to further destinations in France and beyond.

The current proposal would involve a fleet of at least seven trainsets, which would need to be approved for use through the Channel Tunnel. RENFE confirmed that initial contacts had already been made with the relevant infrastructure managers.

RENFE had previously approached HS1 Ltd about a cross-Channel service, but at the time it did not have any rolling stock which would be likely to obtain approval for use through the Channel Tunnel.

International expansion

RENFE envisages that its cross-Channel service would provide a significant boost to its reputation in the international rail market, supporting a programme of strategic expansion which was announced in 2019 ahead of the opening of Spain’s domestic passenger market to competition.

RENFE already operates the Haramain High Speed Rail line in Saudi Arabia, and acquired a 50% stake in Czech open access operator Leo Express in August this year, gaining access to the Czech Republic, Poland and Slovakia and licences for Germany.

Any thoughts?

 

[markindurham]

Why not? If it keeps Eurostar honest, good luck to them.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Why not? If it keeps Eurostar honest, good luck to them.

I feel the same. Competition for Eurostar

 

[221129]

I'll believe it when it happens. But it would be a good bit of competition for Eurostar who have let the ball slip recently.

 

[NARobertson]

I hope this turns out to be true. However, there have been many false dawns in the past. DB have several times over the years said they would like to introduce direct trains between Cologne or Frankfurt and London but nothing has ever come of it, probably for bureaucratic reasons. Over 25 years ago sleepers were made but never used, these being eventually sold to the Canadians.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I hope this turns out to be true. However, there have been many false dawns in the past. DB have several times over the years said they would like to introduce direct trains between Cologne or Frankfurt and London but nothing has ever come of it, probably for bureaucratic reasons. Over 25 years ago sleepers were made but never used, these being eventually sold to the Canadians.

London to Frankfurt was shelved a few years ago.

 

[ainsworth74]

I feel like RENFE will find someway of competing either directly or, if needed, indirectly with SNCF (Eurostar being 55% owned by SNCF). I think it's therefore notable that they've approached HS1 and Eurotunnel first. More likely to actually get some useful information from them than the French equivalent for LGV Nord!

I am under the impression that equipment wise RENFE may well already have stock which which is likely to be able to gain acceptance in the Channel Tunnel as there are some very long tunnels on some of the high speed Spanish routes which required some specific arrangements for the rolling stock? But I'm very very open to correction!

That all being said whilst I do think Eurostar are in dire need of a bit of on rail competition I'm certainly firmly into the "I'll believe it when I see it" camp sadly!

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I feel like RENFE will find someway of competing either directly or, if needed, indirectly with SNCF (Eurostar being 55% owned by SNCF). I think it's therefore notable that they've approached HS1 and Eurotunnel first. More likely to actually get some useful information from them than the French equivalent for LGV Nord!

I am under the impression that equipment wise RENFE may well already have stock which which is likely to be able to gain acceptance in the Channel Tunnel as there are some very long tunnels on some of the high speed Spanish routes which required some specific arrangements for the rolling stock? But I'm very very open to correction!

That all being said whilst I do think Eurostar are in dire need of a bit of on rail competition I'm certainly firmly into the "I'll believe it when I see it" camp sadly!

Yes I’m in the believe it when i see it camp. But Eurostar needs competition, i mean i suppose this begs the question what type of service could RENFE offer to compete with Eurostar? (That might be a separate thread in itself)

 

[MotCO]

Yes I’m in the believe it when i see it camp. But Eurostar needs competition, i mean i suppose this begs the question what type of service could RENFE offer to compete with Eurostar? (That might be a separate thread in itself)

Presumably London - Paris - Madrid? Probably not many end to end customers (except those that don't like flying), but could be some London - Paris and Paris - Madrid passengers. (Not sure how you would actually get round Paris,though.)

 

[Ianno87]

Presumably London - Paris - Madrid? Probably not many end to end customers (except those that don't like flying), but could be some London - Paris and Paris - Madrid passengers. (Not sure how you would actually get round Paris,though.)

Even Paris-Madrid is really too far for rail to be competitive (Paris-Barcelona is only just).

I'd suspect they'd go for a copycat London-Paris service. Perhaps something "no frills" against Eurostar's "premium" offering.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Presumably London - Paris - Madrid? Probably not many end to end customers (except those that don't like flying), but could be some London - Paris and Paris - Madrid passengers. (Not sure how you would actually get round Paris,though.)

No mention of a London to Madrid via Paris service? I assumed it would just be London to Paris

Even Paris-Madrid is really too far for rail to be competitive (Paris-Barcelona is only just).

I'd suspect they'd go for a copycat London-Paris service. Perhaps something "no frills" against Eurostar's "premium" offering.

I wondered that. Sort of like a low cost channel tunnel service, though I’m not sure how possible that is

 

[StephenHunter]

There are no border issues to resolve on London to Paris, so this is far more viable than the other proposals.

 

[Bald Rick]

Definitely possible. Would surely only be London - Paris. The issue will be gaining paths on the French side of the tunnel, particularly at the international platforms in Gare du Nord.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Spanish train operator looks to provide Channel Tunnel service

Renfe’s plan would lead to Eurostar facing first substantial rival on routes from London to continent

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Renfe said it believed a rival service through the Channel Tunnel would be both “viable and profitable”, and added that it has received early support from Channel Tunnel operator Getlink and from HS1, the UK high-speed railway group that owns and manages stations and track from London to the tunnel.

“Until Covid-19, this high-speed corridor had high traffic and was growing, a trend that is expected to recover next year. According to the demand analysis carried out, it would be viable and profitable for Renfe to compete with Eurostar,” Renfe said.

HS1 said it welcomed Renfe’s interest and greater competition would provide more options for people choosing not to fly. Eurostar welcomed competition and said it “has been ready to see a new operator arriving on one of our routes for a long time”.

Operator Getlink said: “The tunnel has always offered open access to rail operators and provides an attractive and low-carbon route for travel and trade.”

Eurostar supports it, Getlink does and HS1.

 

[Purple Orange]

I’d like to see more competition on London-Paris, but as a way of differentiation perhaps ticketing can be something to consider. A through ticket from a UK station to Paris, or even further afield to Barcelona would be useful, even if the service that RENFE introduces is purely a London-Paris route.

 

[cav1975]

Would be even better if they were to stop in Kent on the way. Eurostar, with its monopoly, having abandoned the county.

 

[StephenHunter]

Would be even better if they were to stop in Kent on the way. Eurostar, with its monopoly, having abandoned the county.

Or Stratford. It's a hugely busy area these days.

 

[BayPaul]

Or Stratford. It's a hugely busy area these days.

It would be expensive to reopen the border facilities there - if they only go to stations that are currently served, presumably they can just piggy-back on Eurostar's arrangements

 

[StephenHunter]

It would be expensive to reopen the border facilities there - if they only go to stations that are currently served, presumably they can just piggy-back on Eurostar's arrangements

The border facilities were never opened; but they're still in situ, aren't they?

 

[Ianno87]

The border facilities were never opened; but they're still in situ, aren't they?

There's an empty room for them, yes.

But no equipment, no staff, which all have to be paid for.

 

[BayPaul]

The border facilities were never opened; but they're still in situ, aren't they?

Presumably needing new equipment such as X-rays, refurbishment, and most expensively staff, however.

 

[Ianno87]

Spanish train operator looks to provide Channel Tunnel service

Renfe’s plan would lead to Eurostar facing first substantial rival on routes from London to continent

www.ft.com

Eurostar supports it, Getlink does and HS1.

From Eurostar's perspective, it actually might be good news from a "grow the market overall" perspective.

Plus I presume they'll charge Renfe to use some of their facilities.

 

[RT4038]

The border facilities were never opened; but they're still in situ, aren't they?

Yes, but the operator will be required to pay for their manning and the attendant security arrangements. Unless RENFE really think that this is going to steal a march on Eurostar, and attract large numbers of passengers paying suitably high fares to pay for such facilities, then they are more likely to merely contribute to the existing arrangement at St Pancras and GdN

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I feel like RENFE will find someway of competing either directly or, if needed, indirectly with SNCF (Eurostar being 55% owned by SNCF). I think it's therefore notable that they've approached HS1 and Eurotunnel first. More likely to actually get some useful information from them than the French equivalent for LGV Nord!

I am under the impression that equipment wise RENFE may well already have stock which which is likely to be able to gain acceptance in the Channel Tunnel as there are some very long tunnels on some of the high speed Spanish routes which required some specific arrangements for the rolling stock? But I'm very very open to correction!

That all being said whilst I do think Eurostar are in dire need of a bit of on rail competition I'm certainly firmly into the "I'll believe it when I see it" camp sadly!

The Guadarrama tunnel on the Madrid-Valladolid run is 28km in length, the longest in Spain.
On the Puebla de Sanabria-Ourense LAV mountain route about to open, I think there are several tunnels which individually are somewhat shorter.
RENFE runs pairs of high speed trains from CAF/Alstom (S-121) and Talgo/Bombardier (S-102) on the route, but most are of the gauge-changing type as the LAV sections run onto classic lines, unlike Madrid-Barcelona/Seville/Malaga, so no TGV or Velaro clones on the northern routes.
The Guadarrama tunnel is superficially similar to the Channel Tunnel, with frequent cross-passages between the bores, but I don't know how similar the safety regimes are.

The Perthus high speed tunnel under the Pyrenees between Perpignan and Figueres is 8.2km long, and carries RENFE and SNCF services.

 

[StephenHunter]

They also have Siemens Velaro units of the same type as Eurostar.

 

[popeter45]

They also have Siemens Velaro units of the same type as Eurostar.

but no TVM-430 on them, AFAIK only the S-100 (TGV derived) has it so would need to use that, retrofit the S-103's or order a subset of AVRIL's with it and pray SNCF approve either of the later options

 

[Roast Veg]

Eurostar's expression of excitement for a competitor either comes from an expectation of overall growth, or knowledge that the per-passenger access charges to use the tunnel will kill any opportunity for cost undercutting...

 

[Bald Rick]

Eurostar's expression of excitement for a competitor either comes from an expectation of overall growth, or knowledge that the per-passenger access charges to use the tunnel will kill any opportunity for cost undercutting...

Or the knowledge that the competitor will most likely need to buy the services of Eurostar for station facilities, equipment, some staff etc., which Eurostar would surely not do at a loss...

 

[StephenHunter]

Or the knowledge that the competitor will most likely need to buy the services of Eurostar for station facilities, equipment, some staff etc., which Eurostar would surely not do at a loss...

Eurostar don't own St Pancras though.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Eurostar don't own St Pancras though.

No HS1 do.