RENFE (was Do double deck suburban trains run in Madrid on a Sunday morning?)

[AdamWW]

Bit of a niche question I know, but does anyone know if the double deck suburban trains in Madrid (class 450?) run on Sunday mornings?

 

[Metro95]

Why are you asking?

 

[AdamWW]

Why are you asking?

Because I expect to be in Madrid briefly and I'd like to go on one if I can. If they're not running then there's no point trying to find one.

 

[Metro95]

When do you expect to be in Madrid?

 

[AdamWW]

When do you expect to be in Madrid?

Some time this month.

 

[dutchflyer]

Ola, now in the outskirts of M-on an INterRail tour, this week for Espana and arrived 2 days ago at airport. YES, they do run-but far fewer as I expected (indeed many on the C-10 airport line and also the line to Guadalajara), but not all trips and if there is way to check which trips, I would not know.
As sat has much same service as sun (called festivos, not domingo, as it also holds for holidays) I did see a very few this afternoon.
Basically much the same format as the Paris-surburban units, but less vandalised and also even more basic-hardly any new style passenger info at all.
Using an INterRail seems to make things worse every time I get here, at the airport the gate staff was completely unaware of what it is and the nice lady making some reservations for me at aeropuerto also first had to check her manuals on the how and wherefore.

 

[AdamWW]

Ola, now in the outskirts of M-on an INterRail tour, this week for Espana and arrived 2 days ago at airport. YES, they do run-but far fewer as I expected (indeed many on the C-10 airport line and also the line to Guadalajara), but not all trips and if there is way to check which trips, I would not know.
As sat has much same service as sun (called festivos, not domingo, as it also holds for holidays) I did see a very few this afternoon.
Basically much the same format as the Paris-surburban units, but less vandalised and also even more basic-hardly any new style passenger info at all.
Using an INterRail seems to make things worse every time I get here, at the airport the gate staff was completely unaware of what it is and the nice lady making some reservations for me at aeropuerto also first had to check her manuals on the how and wherefore.

They do indeed run - I've done my trip now and I did see a few. By sheer luck I turned up at Atocha with the intention of getting a train to Chamartin and the first one that turned up was a double decker. (And also by luck I arrived in time to see a train formed of two diesel locomotives looking and sounding very much like class 67's hauling a Talgo rake).

I'm not sure I'd attempt to use an Interrail pass in Spain - they really don't seem to want you to. In fact while I find the rail network there absolutely fascinating (where else can you catch a train that at different points in its journey passes over dual gauge track on the two different gauges?) the infrequent services on many routes and need to book almost everything in advance with trains being full days or even weeks ahead of time is rather off-putting. What they have done to their railways really seems quite strange to me.

 

[rg177]

Off topic but yes my advice for Interrailing in Spain is don't.

I was frequently met with unstaffed, fully gated stations and the staff seemed to think I was either a hindrance or a source of comedy.

As you say though, interesting network, even if its a bit of a mare to try and cover much in one go.

 

[davidknibb]

More broadly, RENFE seems to operate a system on express trains that everyone gets a seat. When the train is fully booked then that's that. No standing allowed on even short journeys. But how this is applied seems a bit random. Two weeks ago i travelled from Bilbao to Legrono. Pre booking was essential, and had to show passport/id card when booking and when boarding. Then a few days later took a slowish train from Burgos to Madrid. Prebooking needed, but no boarding checks or on board check, Anyone could easily have boarded without a ticket.
Then three days ago tried to get from Toledo back to Madrid at about 1600. Next 2 trains fully booked (Toledo is a popular day trip from Madrid) and had to wait about 2hrs30mins to get a seat. Passport needed to buy a ticket and checked when boarding too.
Tickets are not expensive by our standards. Perhaps an irritation is that as the high speed network is developed city centre stations have been closed (eg Burgos) and new ones built on green field sites several miles from the city. A taxi/bus ride needed. Last time I was there the station was really close to the centre - now the track is a walking/bike route.

 

[HS2isgood]

There is a bus from Toledo to Madrid, every half-hour taking 50 minutes. Whenever I go to Toledo I always take the bus, as it's included within my Madrid Transport youth pass and the train is like € 8.75 with a disabled Railcard. The train is faster tho, but less frequent.

 

[AdamWW]

More broadly, RENFE seems to operate a system on express trains that everyone gets a seat. When the train is fully booked then that's that. No standing allowed on even short journeys. But how this is applied seems a bit random. Two weeks ago i travelled from Bilbao to Legrono. Pre booking was essential, and had to show passport/id card when booking and when boarding. Then a few days later took a slowish train from Burgos to Madrid. Prebooking needed, but no boarding checks or on board check, Anyone could easily have boarded without a ticket.
Then three days ago tried to get from Toledo back to Madrid at about 1600. Next 2 trains fully booked (Toledo is a popular day trip from Madrid) and had to wait about 2hrs30mins to get a seat. Passport needed to buy a ticket and checked when boarding too.
Tickets are not expensive by our standards. Perhaps an irritation is that as the high speed network is developed city centre stations have been closed (eg Burgos) and new ones built on green field sites several miles from the city. A taxi/bus ride needed. Last time I was there the station was really close to the centre - now the track is a walking/bike route.

The frustating things about a "no standing" policy is that there might be a seat for most of your journey but you still can't get on.

From the small amount I saw, "high speed" (standard gauge) trains are operated like airliners - luggage X-rays and ticket checks on boarding.

Iberian gauge trains, even long distances ones, work like most of Europe where you have free access to platforms and trains and the ticket checks are on board.

On a busy "Media Distancia" train the guard seemed to be ticking off occupied seats as he checked tickets, perhaps to know if there were any no shows?

 

[rvdborgt]

More broadly, RENFE seems to operate a system on express trains that everyone gets a seat.

That policy also extends to a number of regional express trains.
RENFE's motto seems to be: "We decide what you want".

 

[AdamWW]

That policy also extends to a number of regional express trains.
RENFE's motto seems to be: "We decide what you want".

Of course an advantage of having a ticket valid only on one particular train is that they can automatically pay compensation when your train is late.

But they don't - you have to request it (though it's somewhat simpler than a UK delay repay form since all you have to give is ticket number and start and end stations).

 

[stuu]

That policy also extends to a number of regional express trains.
RENFE's motto seems to be: "We decide what you want".

Totally agree.

They seem to be completely unaware what the R in their name means, with their abysmal failure to understand the concept of changing trains

 

[AdamWW]

Totally agree.

They seem to be completely unaware what the R in their name means, with their abysmal failure to understand the concept of changing trains

I did read somewhere that RENFE no longer officially stands for anything...

I find the whole idea of only offering a limited number of Officially Approved journeys involving a change of trains quite odd. But with their generally infrequent services and insistance on not letting anyone stand even on short journeys, I can see why they might not want to have to deal with people missing connections.

Presumably if people want to make a journey that's not convenient to RENFE they can drive, fly or go by coach.

I don't know what happens if you do miss a connection - third party web sites quite happily sell combinations of tickets involving a change without any warning of what might happen if it goes wrong.

It seems they are now opening up non high speed lines to open access operators. It will be interesting to see if anyone gives it a go. I'm sure there's plenty of track capacity on the whole, but given how infrequent the service on most low speed lines is I don't know how viable it would be.

On a positive note, the stations I used - even ones with only a few trains a day - seemed well looked after and well staffed. Having a manned ticket office at a station with nine departures a day is a bit of a contrast to the Dutch approach. It was also a strange experience seeing double manned locomotives.

 

[stuu]

I find the whole idea of only offering a limited number of Officially Approved journeys involving a change of trains quite odd. But with their generally infrequent services and insistance on not letting anyone stand even on short journeys, I can see why they might not want to have to deal with people missing connections.

The point about frequency is valid, but even when there are frequent trains they don't bother. As an example, someone on holiday on the Costa del Sol might decide to visit Cordoba, which is a simple change at Malaga between the suburban route and the high speed lines. But the journey planner refuses to acknowledge such a thing is possible. Even though the trains are broadly hourly from Malaga to Cordoba

 

[AdamWW]

The point about frequency is valid, but even when there are frequent trains they don't bother. As an example, someone on holiday on the Costa del Sol might decide to visit Cordoba, which is a simple change at Malaga between the suburban route and the high speed lines. But the journey planner refuses to acknowledge such a thing is possible. Even though the trains are broadly hourly from Malaga to Cordoba

It does indeed seem very odd.

They do chuck in a free suburban train journey with long distance tickets, but you have to plan the two parts separately and I've no idea what they consider the right amount of time to leave between trains when catching the long distance train.

It does feel rather as if someone took over with experience in the arline industry, decided that how railways have functioned for over a hundred years was somehow wrong and constructed something rather strange.

Even the fare options are odd.
"Basico" fare - second class with lots of restrictions.
"Elige" fare - also second class, but with lots of possible upgrades (mostly different options for letting you refund/change your ticket) and one of them being to have a 1st class seat.

 

[rvdborgt]

They do chuck in a free suburban train journey with long distance tickets, but you have to plan the two parts separately and I've no idea what they consider the right amount of time to leave between trains when catching the long distance train.

They don't even send the Cercanías timetables to MERITS (European Timetable Centre) so are effectively hiding lots of useful connections. I don't know any planner that contains all RENFE trains, including Cercanías and that's a pain when planning trips in Spain.
RENFE is a perfect example of the fact that some railways themselves are their worst enemy.

 

[AdamWW]

They don't even send the Cercanías timetables to MERITS (European Timetable Centre) so are effectively hiding lots of useful connections. I don't know any planner that contains all RENFE trains, including Cercanías and that's a pain when planning trips in Spain.
RENFE is a perfect example of the fact that some railways themselves are their worst enemy.

Indeed.

I suppose in some sense it's like complaining that the Tyne and Wear Metro or London Underground don't appear in the National Rail journey planner.

But it doesn't seem quite the same when it includes things like the 3 hour + train from Barcelona that runs a few times a day up into the Pyrenees and connects with SNCF.

It looks to me as if their main interest is gaining market share from the fly/drive type on high speed lines, with the remaining trains run because they have an obligation to do so and without much enthusiasm.

After all, who complains that they can't look up their flight and the train to the airport on a single journey planner?

 

[stuu]

They don't even send the Cercanías timetables to MERITS (European Timetable Centre) so are effectively hiding lots of useful connections. I don't know any planner that contains all RENFE trains, including Cercanías and that's a pain when planning trips in Spain.
RENFE is a perfect example of the fact that some railways themselves are their worst enemy.

Google Maps has all trains and metros, and most long distance coaches

 

[Richard Scott]

Indeed.

I suppose in some sense it's like complaining that the Tyne and Wear Metro or London Underground don't appear in the National Rail journey planner.

But it doesn't seem quite the same when it includes things like the 3 hour + train from Barcelona that runs a few times a day up into the Pyrenees and connects with SNCF.

It looks to me as if their main interest is gaining market share from the fly/drive type on high speed lines, with the remaining trains run because they have an obligation to do so and without much enthusiasm.

After all, who complains that they can't look up their flight and the train to the airport on a single journey planner?

But Tyne and Wear Metro and LU not part of National Rail whereas Cercanias is run by RENFE?

 

[AdamWW]

But Tyne and Wear Metro and LU not part of National Rail whereas Cercanias is run by RENFE?

They are. (Mostly, anyway.).

In some sense they seem to be "operated by" RENFE on behalf of the local areas, so you could argue that just because RENFE happen to operate the trains it doesn't mean that they should be included in the main journey planner.

But if I were to attempt to defend RENFE (and I don't wish to) I think I would be somewhat limited by the fact that they do include journey planneres for all their suburban operations on their web site, just with a separate one for each area.

 

[rumoto]

I did read somewhere that RENFE no longer officially stands for anything...

I find the whole idea of only offering a limited number of Officially Approved journeys involving a change of trains quite odd. But with their generally infrequent services and insistance on not letting anyone stand even on short journeys, I can see why they might not want to have to deal with people missing connections.

Presumably if people want to make a journey that's not convenient to RENFE they can drive, fly or go by coach.

I don't know what happens if you do miss a connection - third party web sites quite happily sell combinations of tickets involving a change without any warning of what might happen if it goes wrong.

It seems they are now opening up non high speed lines to open access operators. It will be interesting to see if anyone gives it a go. I'm sure there's plenty of track capacity on the whole, but given how infrequent the service on most low speed lines is I don't know how viable it would be.

With respect to connections, I think Renfe's policy is that, in case of having two different tickets for changing between two trains (not a combined through ticket), the connection is guaranteed if there are at least 60 minutes between the arrival of the first train and the departure of the second train; this minimum time goes up to 90 minutes if the connection is made between two different stations of the same city/town (e.g. Atocha and Chamartin in Madrid): https://blog.renfe.com/garantia-de-enlace-para-no-perder-el-tren/

This guarantee does not apply to connections that involve Cercanias or Feve trains.

You can obviously try to have a connection with less than this minimum time at your risk; it is more doable to have a faster connection if the first train is an AVE, because a delay of 15 minutes at this type of trains means a refund of 50%, and a delay of 30 minutes means a full refund of the AVE ticket cost: https://www.renfe.com/es/en/help/punctuality-commitment

The frustating things about a "no standing" policy is that there might be a seat for most of your journey but you still can't get on.

From the small amount I saw, "high speed" (standard gauge) trains are operated like airliners - luggage X-rays and ticket checks on boarding.

Iberian gauge trains, even long distances ones, work like most of Europe where you have free access to platforms and trains and the ticket checks are on board.

On a busy "Media Distancia" train the guard seemed to be ticking off occupied seats as he checked tickets, perhaps to know if there were any no shows?

There have been problems with this "no standing" policy at some of the "Media Distancia" lines, since the Spanish Government decreed that all Cercanias and "Media Distancia" trains in Spain were going to be free until the end of 2022 (later extended until December 2023), with the creation of a special ticket.

After the start of this Goverment policy, some people booked a seat for many consecutive trains for the same day, to be sure that they were going to travel in this "Media distancia" train, and what happened was that there were fully booked trains with empty seats during the entire journey.

Because of these issues, there have been different Spanish Government ministers saying that they are "studying" different solutions to punish these people who have booked that many reservations for free; Renfe says that there are people who have booked up to 80 seats in different trains.

 

[AdamWW]

With respect to connections, I think Renfe's policy is that, in case of having two different tickets for changing between two trains (not a combined through ticket), the connection is guaranteed if there are at least 60 minutes between the arrival of the first train and the departure of the second train; this minimum time goes up to 90 minutes if the connection is made between two different stations of the same city/town (e.g. Atocha and Chamartin in Madrid): https://blog.renfe.com/garantia-de-enlace-para-no-perder-el-tren/

Fascinating. It says "Perhaps you are unaware that all Renfe Viajeros trains have a connection guarantee between two routes "

Maybe that could be because the information isn't in their terms and conditions or provided when you book tickets?

I'm also intrigued by the idea of throwing in a free Cercanias ticket then saying if we can't run the Cercanias train on time and you miss your connection - even if you leave a ludicrious hour to do so - then that's your problem.

The comments are full of people asking questions and being referred to the helpline for answers (though it seems the helpline isn't all that helpful).

It's fascinating how you seem to have more rights in the UK when changing between operators than you have in Spain when sticking with RENFE.

After the start of this Goverment policy, some people booked a seat for many consecutive trains for the same day, to be sure that they were going to travel in this "Media distancia" train, and what happened was that there were fully booked trains with empty seats during the entire journey.

Because of these issues, there have been different Spanish Government ministers saying that they are "studying" different solutions to punish these people who have booked that many reservations for free; Renfe says that there are people who have booked up to 80 seats in different trains.

I read that they had changed it so you couldn't book a return until you'd started the outward journey, which doesn't seem very helpful.

 

[rumoto]

I read that they had changed it so you couldn't book a return until you'd started the outward journey, which doesn't seem very helpful.

It's true that Renfe has put more limits to book a return on the same day, but there are still hundreds of massive seat bookings until 31 December, that were made before the new rules entered into force.

That's some issue the Spanish Minister of Transport says she wants it to be solved before the end of the year, and she says Renfe is looking for solutions related to this problem.

 

[AdamWW]

It's true that Renfe has put more limits to book a return on the same day, but there are still hundreds of massive seat bookings until 31 December, that were made before the new rules entered into force.

That's some issue the Spanish Minister of Transport says she wants it to be solved before the end of the year, and she says Renfe is looking for solutions related to this problem.

A little disappointing that nobody saw this coming (and that some people reacted so unreasonably).

I often think that the civil service needs a group for considering unintended consequences. When a new regulation or target is being considered, they get to pretend to be people affected and work out how they'd try to game the system.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

The civil service often does. Ministers and their advisers make the decisions and may choose to ignore the advice.

 

[Dumpton Park]

Renfe's approach to ticketing has always been quite a mystery and the uptick in high speed services has made it worse. Even before them most long distance trains were bookings only. The Spanish network, although very well resourced. always feels massively underexploited compared to say, France or Italy. I genuinely wonder if it's down to not wanting - or being allowed - to throw money at the IT capabilties to run an integrated network

I'm convinced the reason Madrid has such a basic "smart" ticket (which isn't smart at all, there's no concept of daily capping, no real attempt to encourage multimodal travel, you simply buy single tickets or ten ticket carnets for whatever inter or intrazonal journeys you are doing just as everyone did with paper and magnetic tickets for decades) is a question of the cost of setting up and running something like an updated Oyster network.

In the end there is a cultural issue, though. Many, many people, not least in the decision making class, would never, ever consider using public transport. The social status of the car is stronger in Spain than anywhere else I've been in Europe. Even the UK.

DP