Renovating a 1970s N gauge layout !

[Justin Smith]

I built a 6'x4' N gauge layout in the late 1970s and it has been hanging about (literally, suspended from various garage ceilings....) unused since then, apart from a brief outing in the early 90s ! My son is very keen on getting it working so we have finally got it down.

The first thing I noticed was all the foam underlay/ballast is decomposing to dust. Is it actually necessary to have underlay/ballast because vaccing it all out and pinning the track straight to the (chipboard) base would be much the easiest option ! To my unknowledgeable eye it would seem that pinning the track straight to the board (no foam layer between) would make it lie flatter ?

Some of the track and points will almost certainly need replacing, how does one remove one point (or piece of track) without taking up loads of track either side of it ?

Any hints on getting the electrical connection on the point blades to work better ?

Lastly (for now ! ), I have a "Relco" installed on it which was supposed to improve the pick up of the traction current, is this worth wiring back into the system (from memory, 40 years ago, it did make a difference) ? And if so has anyone any tips on getting it to work well ?

Thanks.

 

[Peter C]

I built a 6x4 N gauge layout in the late 1970s and it has been hanging about (literally, suspended from various garage ceilings....) unused since then. My son is very keen on getting it working so we have finally got it down.

The first thing I noticed was all the foam underlay/ballast is decomposing to dust. Is it actually necessary to have underlay/ballast because vaccing it all out and pinning the track straight to the (chipboard) base would be much the easiest option ! To my unknowledgeable eye it would seem that pinning the track straight to the board (no foam layer between) would make it lie flatter ?

Some of the track and points will almost certainly need replacing, how does one remove one point (or piece of track) without taking up loads of track either side of it ?

Any hints on getting the electrical connection on the point blades to work better ?

Lastly (for now ! ), I have a "Relco" installed on it which was supposed to improve the pick up of the traction current, is this worth wiring back into the system (from memory, 40 years ago, it did make a difference) ? And if so has anyone any tips on getting it to work well ?

Thanks.

I'm no good with the electrical side of the hobby, but I can speak from experience on the underlay question. It's not necessary to have underlay/ballast on a layout - lots of layouts don't use underlay (whether that be cork or rubber or something else) at all. I've pinned my track straight to the baseboard and then ballasted it afterwards - any sound-deadening effects you'd get from the underlay are lost really once the glue sets for the ballast.
Removing track without removing lots of bits either side is a bit more tricky - what I've found is that sometimes you just need to take up a fair bit, but taking up a bit and then wiggling the piece you're trying to remove can be quite useful, if that makes any sense?

@Cowley and @malc-c are our N gauge boffins - they'll be able to help better than I could

-Peter

 

[Cowley]

I built a 6x4 N gauge layout in the late 1970s and it has been hanging about (literally, suspended from various garage ceilings....) unused since then. My son is very keen on getting it working so we have finally got it down.

The first thing I noticed was all the foam underlay/ballast is decomposing to dust. Is it actually necessary to have underlay/ballast because vaccing it all out and pinning the track straight to the (chipboard) base would be much the easiest option ! To my unknowledgeable eye it would seem that pinning the track straight to the board (no foam layer between) would make it lie flatter ?

Some of the track and points will almost certainly need replacing, how does one remove one point (or piece of track) without taking up loads of track either side of it ?

Any hints on getting the electrical connection on the point blades to work better ?

Lastly (for now ! ), I have a "Relco" installed on it which was supposed to improve the pick up of the traction current, is this worth wiring back into the system (from memory, 40 years ago, it did make a difference) ? And if so has anyone any tips on getting it to work well ?

Thanks.

You could definitely do away with the underlay, I don’t use it on my railway. In fact I don’t even pin it because I don’t like to take the risk of distorting the track. I glue it down instead as does @reddragon too.

I did replace a point that was in situ a while back and wrote about it here.

Hopefully that’s useful.

 

[Justin Smith]

Thanks chaps
Very interesting.

How exactly did you get the point in without moving the adjacent tracks ?
Was there room to slide the fishplates fully onto the point (or the adjacent track sections) drop it in, then slide them into place ?

I think I won't bother with the underlay/ballast, though removing the deteriorated foam underlay then reveals the original 1970s chipboard which I will have to paint grey !

I seem to remember reading years and years ago that chipboard was not actually a good option for a model railway baseboard, is that because it's harder to get the pins in ?

You could definitely do away with the underlay, I don’t use it on my railway. In fact I don’t even pin it because I don’t like to take the risk of distorting the track. I glue it down instead as does @reddragon too.

Glue has advantages because some of the original track has been damaged, esp on the sleepers where the pins went in, I wasn't as careful or patient then, nor did I have tools as good...... What kind of glue do you use, and what do you do if you need to move or replace a bit of track ?

 

[Cowley]

@Justin Smith - I managed to wiggle the four fishplates into the double track end of the points reasonably easily and on the single end of the track I’d cut the sleepers back slightly so I was able to slide the fishplates further up the rails than normal and once it was in situ slide them back into place with a tiny screwdriver.

Between the point blades I sometimes fold a bit of fine sandpaper over and clean them that way (make sure you blow the dust out afterwards), or I use a bit of Dapol track cleaner on a small brush - it’s alcohol based, to get them clean that way.

All my track is glued down using PVA and I weight it down while it’s drying to keep it flat.
If you need to remove the PVA I find soaking it with a little bit of white spirit dissolves it easily.
Once it’s ballasted that holds it all together too.

 

[Justin Smith]

Some of the original track was "flexi", interestingly that seems to have rusted more than the normal stuff, not sure why.
What are the pros and cons of flexi track ?

 

[Cowley]

Some of the original track was "flexi", interestingly that seems to have rusted more than the normal stuff, not sure why.
What are the pros and cons of flexi track ?

Well it’s about making sweeping curves and a more individual layout really.
Set track is nice and simple to use but looks a bit more rigid with the curves and straights than if you use flexi.
My whole layout is made with gentle radius points and flexible track, plus it’s made with Code 55 finescale because it looks more realistic for what I wanted to achieve.

To be honest Justin, if it was me I’d probably start again from scratch with one of the Peco starter packs like this rather than trying to renovate track that’s decades old.
You might find yourself expending a lot of effort into this and it still not working that well if it’s starting to rust (modern nickel silver track won’t rust).

Definitely worth considering as it could become a bit frustrating…

 

[TheEdge]

To be honest Justin, if it was me I’d probably start again from scratch with one of the Peco starter packs like this rather than trying to renovate track that’s decades old.
You might find yourself expending a lot of effort into this and it still not working that well if it’s starting to rust (modern nickel silver track won’t rust).

@Justin Smith I'd absolutely agree with this. No matter what you try track of that age in that condition that's gone so long without maintenance will never perform reliably and just be frustrating when you and you son try to play trains. Bin it and buy new track.

 

[Justin Smith]

I am thinking of replacing some, maybe even most of it. TBH I am slightly surprised at how a train of coaches pushed over most of it doesn't derail.
What is even more surprising is it is often the bits of track or joints which don't look too bad that derail the train, yet bits that one thinks are awful it sails over !

I am leaning towards using flexi track because it's more, err, flexible. I feel the key point, though, is getting hold of a track cutter which cuts on the side. My cable cutters slice through N gauge track, but they are like scissors, i.e. one cannot cut right up to the sleeper.
Are these Xuron track cutters any good ?

 

[Gloster]

If the baseboard is still solid, use it. Otherwise start with new track, etc. Sometimes bits of track can be used in fiddle yards, as abandoned sidings, stacked rail, etc., although probably not points. Underlay was particularly popular in the days of steamroller-wheeled locos running on chipboard and plywood baseboards. Nowadays things tend to be a bit quieter.

 

[Justin Smith]

If the baseboard is still solid, use it. Otherwise start with new track, etc. Sometimes bits of track can be used in fiddle yards, as abandoned sidings, stacked rail, etc., although probably not points. Underlay was particularly popular in the days of steamroller-wheeled locos running on chipboard and plywood baseboards. Nowadays things tend to be a bit quieter.

I keep reading about sound deadening but, TBH, I could not care how loud it runs, trains are pretty loud anyway so it could be argued it is more realistic !

I am having problems getting some of the pins out, they have been in for over 40 years and in some slightly (not very) garages, they appeared to have expanded due to corrosion and getting them out of the chipboard is almost impossible. It often pulls the top off the pin or they come but the enlarged pin then brings the tracks up with it. I expected loads of issues with the layout, but not that !

 

[TheEdge]

What is actually on the layout? Presumably the wood must have deteriorated as well over the years?

Is it possible trying to renovate may be throwing good money after bad and starting fresh might be an avenue worth investigating?

 

[Justin Smith]

What is actually on the layout? Presumably the wood must have deteriorated as well over the years?

Is it possible trying to renovate may be throwing good money after bad and starting fresh might be an avenue worth investigating?

The base is chipboard with a strengthening frame underneath (so it could be suspended on ropes from garage ceilings).
Basically I am mainly getting this layout going for my 9 year old son to play with. The standard of construction of it is poor as I made it when I was about 13 and short of money (and tools and patience), yet it has some nostalgia for me.
I am erring on replacing any track and points which need it but keeping the bits which run OK.

 

[malc-c]

Personally, if it's chipboard that has been in a damp garage for several decades, and track that would appear to be steel (hence the rusting) I would start from fresh with new baseboard and track. Keep your existing layout for sentimental reasons, and build a new layout with you son. For simplistic reasons, either but a train set and a few additional items of track to make it differ from a basic oval, and go from there.

 

[Cowley]

Personally, if it's chipboard that has been in a damp garage for several decades, and track that would appear to be steel (hence the rusting) I would start from fresh with new baseboard and track. Keep your existing layout for sentimental reasons, and build a new layout with you son. For simplistic reasons, either but a train set and a few additional items of track to make it differ from a basic oval, and go from there.

Yes I’d definitely agree.
It’s great that you’ve got a pulley system for getting the layout stored away @Justin Smith and that sounds well worth keeping, but model railways have moved on massively in detail and quality terms over the past twenty years and if you want stuff to run properly it’s better starting from scratch where it comes to trackwork etc.
You won’t regret it but you might well regret including 40 year old track components in a new layout.

 

[Justin Smith]

I am already beginning to wish I had never started this, though it has been hanging on my mind for years as my son keeps pestering me to get the layout down.....

Starting again completely is not appealing because of the time it would take, as well as the cost, I am already short of time in my life !

Much - not all - of the track appears to work OK (i.e. it does not derail the trains, surprisingly) and I can sort the electrical continuity (if necessary by adding parallel wire jumpers on the underside of the layout) though the points may be a different matter. I do have a few ideas on that, soldering very thin wires across the side of the hinged joints. It's not just the cost of replacement, it's getting hold of points which are the same size.

Rather surprisingly the fact the sponge track ballast underlay is decomposing to dust actually appears to be the biggest problem (as it makes replacing sections of track much more complicated and affects the track level), plus the difficulty in removing the pins, a problem I never anticipated.

 

[malc-c]

At the end of the day we can all give you our opinions on what we feel would be the best approach, but the final decision is down to you. We can only speculate on how good/bad the board is, the state the tracks in, and we have no idea of the personal aspects of time and money you can invest in giving your son an introduction to the hobby.

If the minimum is that you have to remove all the track, clean off the disintegrating foam underlay and then relay the track on the old board, then go for that. Other than the expense of new track there is little different time wise to doing that or laying new track.

As far as the track goes, I would have thought that the points are standard sizes give that it appears to be set track, possibly Hornby, that was originally used based on your description.

Edit - just realised this is an N gauge layout !

 

[Justin Smith]

At the end of the day we can all give you our opinions on what we feel would be the best approach, but the final decision is down to you. We can only speculate on how good/bad the board is, the state the tracks in, and we have no idea of the personal aspects of time and money you can invest in giving your son an introduction to the hobby.

If the minimum is that you have to remove all the track, clean off the disintegrating foam underlay and then relay the track on the old board, then go for that. Other than the expense of new track there is little different time wise to doing that or laying new track.

As far as the track goes, I would have thought that the points are standard sizes give that it appears to be set track, possibly Hornby, that was originally used based on your description.

Edit - just realised this is an N gauge layout !

It has been useful posting this thread as I have learnt that underlay is not necessary (in fact possibly disadvantageous) and flexi track is worth using.
My strategy, once my bumper pack of glass fibre pen refills gets here ( ! ), is to use that and a track cleaning rubber and just see how good I can get the electrical continuity. I will use jumper wires to help with that if necessary, and will replace components as required. It doesn't have to be perfect, just work reasonably well.

 

[Cowley]

It has been useful posting this thread as I have learnt that underlay is not necessary (in fact possibly disadvantageous) and flexi track is worth using.
My strategy, once my bumper pack of glass fibre pen refills gets here ( ! ), is to use that and a track cleaning rubber and just see how good I can get the electrical continuity. I will use jumper wires to help with that if necessary, and will replace components as required. It doesn't have to be perfect, just work reasonably well.

I guess as a project to show your son how it all works and also showing him that you can repair things that are old it’s a pretty worthwhile experience.
One thing that might be useful to get (I get mine off eBay normally) is a can of contact cleaner:

WD-40 Specialist Fast Drying Contact Cleaner 250ml | Halfords UK

Shop the latest WD-40 Specialist Fast Drying Contact Cleaner is a fast acting, non-conductive cleaner. at Halfords UK

www.googleadservices.com

It works wonders on points and older locomotives I find.

Let us know how it goes Justin.

 

[Justin Smith]

I guess as a project to show your son how it all works and also showing him that you can repair things that are old it’s a pretty worthwhile experience.
One thing that might be useful to get (I get mine off eBay normally) is a can of contact cleaner:

WD-40 Specialist Fast Drying Contact Cleaner 250ml | Halfords UK

Shop the latest WD-40 Specialist Fast Drying Contact Cleaner is a fast acting, non-conductive cleaner. at Halfords UK

www.googleadservices.com

It works wonders on points and older locomotives I find.

Let us know how it goes Justin.

How does that contact cleaner work C. ? Does it disolve the dirt and it falls off ?

 

[Cowley]

How does that contact cleaner work C. ? Does it disolve the dirt and it falls off ?

Not really, you’ll still have to clean the blades first. It just encourages a better electrical contact between the surfaces once everything’s done.
Sometimes on mine I’ll have a loco stalling on a set of points and a quick squirt of this seems to sort it out without resorting to cleaning the whole thing.

 

[Justin Smith]

Not really, you’ll still have to clean the blades first. It just encourages a better electrical contact between the surfaces once everything’s done.
Sometimes on mine I’ll have a loco stalling on a set of points and a quick squirt of this seems to sort it out without resorting to cleaning the whole thing.

I have just checked one of my workshop shelves, right at the back, and I have some !

 

[Ediswan]

I have just checked one of my workshop shelves, right at the back, and I have some !

Just be sure it is contact cleaner, not the more common "multi-use product".

 

[Justin Smith]

Has anyone got any hints as to how to improve the electrical contact on the point blades, I mean at the "toe" end (where the stretcher bars would go on a full size point) ?
I have tried cleaning it a few times but think it is a lack of pressure holding the point blade against the incoming rail.
Should I be gently bending the point blades ?

 

[Cowley]

Has anyone got any hints as to how to improve the electrical contact on the point blades, I mean at the "toe" end (where the stretcher bars would go on a full size point) ?
I have tried cleaning it a few times but think it is a lack of pressure holding the point blade against the incoming rail.
Should I be gently bending the point blades ?

Would you be able to post a close up photo of the point?

 

[Justin Smith]

Would you be able to post a close up photo of the point?

Big news, I got the outer loop working treasonably(ish) last night and the inner loop is on the way to the same. TBH I am a bit surprised myself...... Measuring continuity with a DVM is not the same as 12V finding its way though, because the latter seems to do so !
The Deltic works well, I think it has current pick up on all axles and all axles are also powered so it keeps going over track one would not have though would work at all with corroded patches and everything.
The C31 (1970s vintage) only has current pick up from one bogie and two axles of the other powered, so that struggles a bit, as does the 1980s vintage ( ? ) 0-6-0 pannier tank (it only picks up current over a short section of track and through only 3 axles).

As I mentioned earlier one or two places are more prone to derailing but these are not the places one would expect. It's weird, the trains travel over sections that look a certainty for it to come off, then derail at a place where one cannot even see a fault !

There are a few sections of track and (particularly) 2 or 3 points that I would like to replace but am up against how difficult it is to remove the track with the corroded in pins. I bought a Xuron track cutter which works well on a few spare pieces of scrap track. So I could just cut it and lift that section straight out, but fishplating in the new piece without removing / moving the adjacent sections seems impossible.
Is it possible to solder track sections in ? If so that might solve the conundrum, any tips ?

 

[Cowley]

Big news, I got the outer loop working treasonably(ish) last night and the inner loop is on the way to the same. TBH I am a bit surprised myself...... Measuring continuity with a DVM is not the same as 12V finding its way though, because the latter seems to do so !
The Deltic works well, I think it has current pick up on all axles and all axles are also powered so it keeps going over track one would not have though would work at all with corroded patches and everything.
The C31 (1970s vintage) only has current pick up from one bogie and two axles of the other powered, so that struggles a bit, as does the 1980s vintage 0-6-0 pannier tank (it only picks up current over a short section of track and through only 3 axles).

As I mentioned earlier one or two places are more prone to derailing but these are not the places one would expect. It's weird, the trains travel over sections that look a certainty for it to come off, then derail at a place where one cannot even see a fault !

There are a few sections of track and (particularly) 2 or 3 points that I would like to replace but am up against how difficult it is to remove the track with the corroded in pins. I bought a Xuron track cutter which works well on a few spare pieces of scrap track. So I could just cut it and lift that section straight out, but fishplating in the new piece without removing / moving the adjacent sections seems impossible.
Is it possible to solder track sections in ? If so that might solve the conundrum, any tips ?

This is just for demonstration purposes but I’ve done this before.
A bit of plastikard either side of the track to hold everything square and then solder wires each side around the joint.

 

[Justin Smith]

This is just for demonstration purposes but I’ve done this before.
A bit of plastikard either side of the track to hold everything square and then solder wires each side around the joint.

View attachment 114236

Brilliant.
I shall take the relevant points down to "Rails" (Sheffield) and hope they can stock the same shape piunts, what do you think teh chances are ?
Incidentally I managed to replace a coupler on the C31 !

 

[Cowley]

Brilliant.
I shall take the relevant points down to "Rails" (Sheffield) and hope they can stock the same shape piunts, what do you think teh chances are ?
Incidentally I managed to replace a coupler on the C31 !

Good work.

 

[Justin Smith]

I am still wondering if I can solder the rails together, I tried soldering them direct to each other but no luck so far. Latest thought is to buy some 0.8mm tinned wire and solder that to the outside of the rails at the joint.

The Deltic works well, I think it has current pick up on all axles and all axles are also powered so it keeps going over track one would not have though would work at all with corroded patches and everything.
The C31 (1970s vintage) only has current pick up from one bogie and two axles of the other powered, so that struggles a bit, as does the 1980s vintage ( ? ) 0-6-0 pannier tank (it only picks up current over a short section of track and through only 3 axles).

I am thinking I may have to buy a second loco as the layout has two independent loops and I have a double controller. But the Deltic is the only one that works reasonably reliably for the reasons mentioned above. the thing is my lad wants us to get a steam loco (he liked the look of an A4).
I am shocked by how expensive all this model railway stuff is (esp the rolling stock, even 2nd hand, someone must be making a fortune ! ) but I also need to know do N gauge model steam engines run as well as diesels ? The latter being powered on all axles and (hopefully) having current pickup from all axles ?