Reopening Gisburn station as a parkway for West Craven and extending Clitheroe services there

[AlastairFraser]

Due to the stagnation of the SELRAP (Skipton to Colne reopening group) proposals to reinstate the former railway between Skipton and Colne as a third Yorks-Lancs trans-Pennine route, perhaps a cheaper interim proposal would be to reopen Gisburn station as a parkway station for the West Craven area, and extend the Northern Rochdale to Clitheroe services to terminate there.

It is only approx. 10 min drive from Barnoldswick/12 min drive from Earby (the largest settlements in the West Craven area) and Gisburn is connected to both those settlements by the hourly Stagecoach 280 from Preston to Skipton via Clitheroe.
The bus however is unreliable beyond Chatburn (between Gisburn and Clitheroe) in the Preston and Clitheroe direction, due to traffic and timing issues, so is not a fully attractive proposition for potential public transport users (unlike the train with the more consistent and predictable journey times).

The village of Gisburn itself also has significant potential for additional housing developments, so could provide a significant source of traffic in future.

 

[bluenoxid]

It’s an option. Question is, what else could you do with the money?

I am going to say £25m for the station and £3m per annum for the additional train. I expect there to be signalling and infrastructure requirements but they depend on the interface between existing movements and the new demands of this service. The service fare will sit in the £16 plus space and take a good 80 minutes into Manchester. It’s quite the commitment for a commute.

If someone said explore this area:

I would put forward adding a deck or two to Booths Clitheroe car park or Chester Avenue (next the Royal Mail Delivery office).

I would suggest that a bus service avoiding Chatburn is put in to resolve the issues you highlight.

I expect these would be delivered for a lot less than the values quoted above.However, if a developer offered a contribution, it might shift the case.

 

[mike57]

But then if you extend to Gisburn why not just carry on to Hellifield, its only another 6 miles ish. You then have a connection with services towards Skipton as well as the Settle - Carlisle.

Could anything be done to increase the line speeds for passenger trains over this section, is the low speed due to track condition, signalling or just because its (almost) freight only?

The problem as I see it would be cost, with the track being in place costs shouldn't be excessive, but these days anything infrastructure related seems to require blank cheques.

I have to say Colne to Skipton re-opening has to me always seemed to be very unlikely, encroachment on the track bed, particularly at the Colne end means the costs will rule it out. Should it have closed , NO... Should the alignment have been protected, YES... but to me too much has been lost to make reinstatement feasible.

 

[30907]

Due to the stagnation of the SELRAP (Skipton to Colne reopening group) proposals to reinstate the former railway between Skipton and Colne as a third Yorks-Lancs trans-Pennine route, perhaps a cheaper interim proposal would be to reopen Gisburn station as a parkway station for the West Craven area, and extend the Northern Rochdale to Clitheroe services to terminate there.

Sorry, but leaving aside the practicalities, I am puzzled by the logic.
SELRAP is seemingly based on access from East Lancs to Skipton and Leeds, but you are suggesting a service for West Craven (a much smaller catchment) to Blackburn and beyond (a much smaller employment area, unless you go another hour to Manchester or 30min to Preston).

Gisburn itself also has significant potential for additional housing developments, so could provide a significant source of traffic in future.

There has been a little recent new build, but it remains a small community.

I would suggest that a bus service avoiding Chatburn is put in to resolve the issues you highlight.

From memory, the traffic delays are largely on the section south of the Pimlico Link road which such a bus would use. Short of an express bus along the bypass and/or a P+R at Whalley or Langho I can't see much to be gained.

 

[AlastairFraser]

It’s an option. Question is, what else could you do with the money?

I am going to say £25m for the station and £3m per annum for the additional train. I expect there to be signalling and infrastructure requirements but they depend on the interface between existing movements and the new demands of this service. The service fare will sit in the £16 plus space and take a good 80 minutes into Manchester. It’s quite the commitment for a commute.

If someone said explore this area:

I would put forward adding a deck or two to Booths Clitheroe car park or Chester Avenue (next the Royal Mail Delivery office).

I would suggest that a bus service avoiding Chatburn is put in to resolve the issues you highlight.

I expect these would be delivered for a lot less than the values quoted above.However, if a developer offered a contribution, it might shift the case.

Clitheroe is too far to attract enough passengers from Barlick/Earby to use trains heading south or west in Lancs.
Anything over a 15 min drive makes it easier for passengers to head for the M65 and drive the whole way there.
Chatburn is a possibility, but it'll cost you more to buy out the surrounding industrial units, and the location is more awkward because it's away from the A59.
A bus service wouldn't be viable for the same reasons - it's a 23 min drive from Barlick to Clitheroe, more from Earby.

Developer contribution is a possibility.
Ribble Valley has had a lot of estates, mainly built between Clitheroe and Whalley, but, at some point, they're going to run out of land or palatable sites and Gisburn is one of the few areas where more new builds would be less contentious, as long as it is in keeping with the landscape and local style (given that most of Ribble Valley District is in the Forest of Bowland AONB).

But then if you extend to Gisburn why not just carry on to Hellifield, its only another 6 miles ish. You then have a connection with services towards Skipton as well as the Settle - Carlisle.

Could anything be done to increase the line speeds for passenger trains over this section, is the low speed due to track condition, signalling or just because its (almost) freight only?

The problem as I see it would be cost, with the track being in place costs shouldn't be excessive, but these days anything infrastructure related seems to require blank cheques.

I have to say Colne to Skipton re-opening has to me always seemed to be very unlikely, encroachment on the track bed, particularly at the Colne end means the costs will rule it out. Should it have closed , NO... Should the alignment have been protected, YES... but to me too much has been lost to make reinstatement feasible.

The demand for services north/south is met by the bus or driving to Skipton to connect with services there, and the added cost to extend on to Hellifield just isn't competitive in light of the additional traffic it would bring (few people are going to drive 20 mins in the wrong direction to Hellfield and take an even longer journey on Northern towards Preston/Blackburn/Manchester).

I think the line speed is low as a factor of the use case to increase speeds not being demonstrated.
Perhaps with a regular service this would change.

As for Colne to Skipton, I hope it does eventually happen, but an alternative for the people of West Craven at least can be delivered before that.

Sorry, but leaving aside the practicalities, I am puzzled by the logic.
SELRAP is seemingly based on access from East Lancs to Skipton and Leeds, but you are suggesting a service for West Craven (a much smaller catchment) to Blackburn and beyond (a much smaller employment area, unless you go another hour to Manchester or 30min to Preston).

There has been a little recent new build, but it remains a small community.

From memory, the traffic delays are largely on the section south of the Pimlico Link road which such a bus would use. Short of an express bus along the bypass and/or a P+R at Whalley or Langho I can't see much to be gained.

I'm suggesting the extension of the Rochdale to Clitheroe service as an interim measure to serve the people of West Craven - the greater objectives of SELRAP's scheme are not achievable without actually building it. So I'm suggesting building something that will achieve a lesser objective (providing rail access to the people of West Craven), for a more achievable investment.

Gisburn itself is a small community, but the Barlick and Earby area would be the primary destinations served by this station.
That area has a population of around 18k.

I agree with your comment about the buses - the 280 ride along the A59 corridor is a lovely scenic ride, but any route along that corridor isn't really going to cut the mustard for connections beyond Clitheroe.

 

[30907]

the added cost to extend on to Hellifield just isn't competitive in light of the additional traffic it would bring

Compared with Gisburn it would be minimal - basically the mileage cost of the DMU(s) versus the capital saving on turnback facilities, as you would require the same extra unit and crews either way. Not that I think either is viable!

I'm suggesting the extension of the Rochdale to Clitheroe service as an interim measure to serve the people of West Craven - the greater objectives of SELRAP's scheme are not achievable without actually building it. So I'm suggesting building something that will achieve a lesser objective (providing rail access to the people of West Craven), for a more achievable investment.

SELRAP doesn't even mention West Craven - or employment opportunitiesin Lancashire - in its blurb. So it's hardly an objective for them.

Gisburn itself is a small community, but the Barlick and Earby area would be the primary destinations served by this station.
That area has a population of around 18k.

I can see that if there were to be significant new building at Gisburn (why not Chatburn, which at least has the infrastructure?) then there might be a case for reopening the station. And if it were to happen, there would be some additional traffic from Barlick and perhaps Earby across the border (!) into Lancashire.
But the most likely destination is Preston which is straight down the A59 (until you hit the traffic queue beyond the M6).

 

[AlastairFraser]

Compared with Gisburn it would be minimal - basically the mileage cost of the DMU(s) versus the capital saving on turnback facilities, as you would require the same extra unit and crews either way. Not that I think either is viable!

SELRAP doesn't even mention West Craven - or employment opportunitiesin Lancashire - in its blurb. So it's hardly an objective for them.

I can see that if there were to be significant new building at Gisburn (why not Chatburn, which at least has the infrastructure?) then there might be a case for reopening the station. And if it were to happen, there would be some additional traffic from Barlick and perhaps Earby across the border (!) into Lancashire.
But the most likely destination is Preston which is straight down the A59 (until you hit the traffic queue beyond the M6).

1.) Extension to Hellifield wouldn't attract the same volume of passengers as Gisburn would, so the business case is undermined.

2) Strange omission, but connecting Barlick/Earby is definitely an objective of theirs - isn't it their idea to build a West Craven Parkway as an intermediate station?

3) I've discussed why a reopened Chatburn station would be in a poor location, you'd have to spend additional funds to improve the road access before reopening while a reopened Gisburn station would be just off the A59.
A development in Gisburn would improve the business case for reopening, but the primary use would be as a western railhead for Barlick/Earby (which are Lancs, but try telling them that of course!)
Preston is nearly an hour's drive, when Gisburn to Preston by rail would be a competitive 45 mins with a smooth change at Blackburn.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Preston is nearly an hour's drive, when Gisburn to Preston by rail would be a competitive 45 mins with a smooth change at Blackburn.

Journey planners show Clitheroe - Preston as a 1 hour 15 minute journey by rail so how is Gisburn to Preston going to take 45 minutes?

 

[AlastairFraser]

Journey planners show Clitheroe - Preston as a 1 hour 15 minute journey by rail so how is Gisburn to Preston going to take 45 minutes?

That's due to the poor journey connection onto the semi fast Blackpool North to York at Blackburn, which could be improved.
Gisburn to Blackburn should be around 25 to 30 mins, then 15 mins on the semifast YRK-BPN Blackburn to Preston.

 

[Bertie the bus]

The connection could be improved but won't. The % of Clitheroe's passengers to/from Preston is around 2%. Gisburn - Preston obviously wouldn't be 45 minutes, or anywhere near it, even if the connections were improved and reopening a station in some small, remote village isn't a good reason to rewrite timetables. Clitheroe - Blackburn is 24 minutes so it isn't going to be 25 from Gisburn and Blackburn - Preston, even on the fast service, is 18 minutes. So it would be more than 45 minutes even you you jumped from one moving train to another at Blackburn. Even if the timetable was optimised just for Gisburn - Preston passengers the journey would be around 1 hour.

 

[AlastairFraser]

The connection could be improved but won't. The % of Clitheroe's passengers to/from Preston is around 2%. Gisburn - Preston obviously wouldn't be 45 minutes, or anywhere near it, even if the connections were improved and reopening a station in some small, remote village isn't a good reason to rewrite timetables. Clitheroe - Blackburn is 24 minutes so it isn't going to be 25 from Gisburn and Blackburn - Preston, even on the fast service, is 18 minutes. So it would be more than 45 minutes even you you jumped from one moving train to another at Blackburn. Even if the timetable was optimised just for Gisburn - Preston passengers the journey would be around 1 hour.

OK, let's say you didn't optimise the connection.

1hr is still competitive. Even at 9pm, the predicted journey time is still 47 mins Barnoldswick to Preston, and that's fairly accurate in my experience actually doing the journey.
In the peaks, you're looking at 1hr15min max. This is if there are no issues in Preston. So a train looks in fact slightly quicker then.

Blackburn to Barnoldswick is around 35-50 mins. The train from Gisburn would be a consistent 35 mins at most.

Let's use another forum user's prediction of 80 mins for Gisburn to Manchester on the train.
Manchester to Barnoldswick is around 1hr30 drive in the peaks.
Again, competitive.

 

[Bertie the bus]

You have contradicted yourself. You can't accept the timetable won't be optimised and then say the journey time if it was optimised would be competitive. If the timetable was optimised, which it wouldn't be, the journey would be at least 1 hour. If it wasn't then the journey would be around 1 1/2 hours.

Either way it simply wouldn't be competitive. Just about everybody would still choose to drive a 1 1/4 hour journey than a 1 hour hourly train service that involved a connection, which if missed would make it a 2 hour journey.

Clitheroe - Preston had 3,000 passenger journeys last year. So Gisburn - Preston would almost certainly have far fewer than 1,000. That isn't even 3 per day.

 

[biggerisbetter]

I have always been interested in how development, particularly residential development, may be able to provide part of the infrastructure funding and additional patronage that help to underpin wider improvements in services.

I think ultimately the controversy of the additional residential development coupled with the costs would be unfeasible but I wondered if you could:

- Extend Clitheroe services to Hellifield via additional station at Chatburn and Gisburn
- Extend one of the Leeds to Skipton services to Hellifield using battery EMUs calling at Gargrave
- Introduce an hourly service from Leeds to Heysham/Carlisle splitting at Hellifield (something like 2 x 2 carriage 195s)

This would need development of Hellifield station with additional platforms and would need to be supported by fairly significant residential development at Gargrave (area between rail line and existing village), Hellifield (area between A65 and rail line), Chatburn (area between A59 and Sawley Road around a new station) and Gisburn (area either side of A682 around a new station) along with decent parking facilities at these stations. The case for the residential development would be that there is an identified need across all areas therefore given you have to put it somewhere it makes sense to direct this to places it can support the provision of improved rail services as these improved services deliver much wider benefits across the area.

This would:

- Improve services on the Bentham and Settle to Carlisle lines materially which would be supported in part by the increased population at the southern part of the line and in part by the improved connections from the Clitheroe line.
- Allow better access from Manchester, Bolton and Blackburn to the Yorkshire Dales and to a lesser extent the Forest of Bowland.
- Improve connections from points north of Manchester to Skipton, Keighley and Bingley.

As I say though, the controversy of the additional residential development coupled with the costs would make this unfeasible but would hugely improve connectivity across these poorly connected parts of Lancashire and Yorkshire.

 

[mike57]

few people are going to drive 20 mins in the wrong direction to Hellfield and take an even longer journey on Northern towards Preston/Blackburn/Manchester

I wasnt suggesting services to Hellifield instead of the Gisburn station, more as closing a missing link if you extend to Gisburn and reopen the station, over tracks that exist.

 

[30907]

1.) Extension to Hellifield wouldn't attract the same volume of passengers as Gisburn would, so the business case is undermined.

Quite the reverse: the business case is improved by reducing capital outlay (turnback facility at Gisburn). Settle/Long Preston/Hellifield is a reasonable potential source (you'd need decent connections of course), and there is certainly a Ribble Valley-Skipton market (you only have to drive the A59 at peak times to know).

2) Strange omission, but connecting Barlick/Earby is definitely an objective of theirs - isn't it their idea to build a West Craven Parkway as an intermediate station?

Probably, and it would be daft not to serve Earby etc - but if even they haven't identified West Craven-Lancs as a market that probably means it's negligible.

3) I've discussed why a reopened Chatburn station would be in a poor location, you'd have to spend additional funds to improve the road access before reopening while a reopened Gisburn station would be just off the A59.

I wasn't referring to Chatburn as a Parkway but as a location for housing develooment (which would be within car-free distance of a starion).

A development in Gisburn would improve the business case for reopening, but the primary use would be as a western railhead for Barlick/Earby (which are Lancs, but try telling them that of course!).

You obviously know Barlick better than I, but I still think they will continue look to Leeds, which is considerably nearer than Manchester.
It's not a coincidence that the parishioners demanded to remain ecclesiastically in Yorkshire when the (C of E) Dioceses Commission wanted to align the diocesan and county boundaries 10 years ago

 

[AlastairFraser]

You have contradicted yourself. You can't accept the timetable won't be optimised and then say the journey time if it was optimised would be competitive. If the timetable was optimised, which it wouldn't be, the journey would be at least 1 hour. If it wasn't then the journey would be around 1 1/2 hours.

Either way it simply wouldn't be competitive. Just about everybody would still choose to drive a 1 1/4 hour journey than a 1 hour hourly train service that involved a connection, which if missed would make it a 2 hour journey.

Clitheroe - Preston had 3,000 passenger journeys last year. So Gisburn - Preston would almost certainly have far fewer than 1,000. That isn't even 3 per day.

I accepted the timetable won't be optimised in some ways - modifications could be made to the Gisburn to Preston service to permit this, rather than the Blackpool North to York, which is, of course, more difficult to tweak.

It's not necessarily a given that people would still choose to drive given the poor state of the roads in the area.

I have always been interested in how development, particularly residential development, may be able to provide part of the infrastructure funding and additional patronage that help to underpin wider improvements in services.

I think ultimately the controversy of the additional residential development coupled with the costs would be unfeasible but I wondered if you could:

- Extend Clitheroe services to Hellifield via additional station at Chatburn and Gisburn
- Extend one of the Leeds to Skipton services to Hellifield using battery EMUs calling at Gargrave
- Introduce an hourly service from Leeds to Heysham/Carlisle splitting at Hellifield (something like 2 x 2 carriage 195s)

This would need development of Hellifield station with additional platforms and would need to be supported by fairly significant residential development at Gargrave (area between rail line and existing village), Hellifield (area between A65 and rail line), Chatburn (area between A59 and Sawley Road around a new station) and Gisburn (area either side of A682 around a new station) along with decent parking facilities at these stations. The case for the residential development would be that there is an identified need across all areas therefore given you have to put it somewhere it makes sense to direct this to places it can support the provision of improved rail services as these improved services deliver much wider benefits across the area.

This would:

- Improve services on the Bentham and Settle to Carlisle lines materially which would be supported in part by the increased population at the southern part of the line and in part by the improved connections from the Clitheroe line.
- Allow better access from Manchester, Bolton and Blackburn to the Yorkshire Dales and to a lesser extent the Forest of Bowland.
- Improve connections from points north of Manchester to Skipton, Keighley and Bingley.

As I say though, the controversy of the additional residential development coupled with the costs would make this unfeasible but would hugely improve connectivity across these poorly connected parts of Lancashire and Yorkshire.

I think this is a good plan, but it could work without huge housing development on a smaller scale.
A split at Hellifield for Carlisle/Morecambe hourly (Heysham is a pointless extension with the current infrastructure) wouldn't be a bad idea, especially to soak up passengers on the Skipton to Leeds section of the lines. You wouldn't necessarily need new platforms at Hellifield to facilitate this either.
I'd avoid investing in new platforms and extending the Skipton to Leeds electrics until a few thousand units of new housing was in place, rather than build before.
Extending the Clitheroe line to Hellifield in that scenario is a decent idea with the regular connections down the Bentham line or S+C.
I'm not convinced about the station at Chatburn because even a completely new location towards Sawley would be difficult to access, and receive objections from local powerful landowners given the proximity to Downham and the Pendle Hill section of the Forest of Bowland AONB, and it's only a 10 min drive or bus ride (they have the C3/66/67 on top of the 280 here too) to Clitheroe station for people living in Chatburn itself.

Gisburn can support more development, perhaps more housebuilding in Barnoldswick or Earby could support a more frequent bus link from Housing Infrastructure Levy/S106 payments?

I wasnt suggesting services to Hellifield instead of the Gisburn station, more as closing a missing link if you extend to Gisburn and reopen the station, over tracks that exist.

OK.
Biggerisbetter's plan is a reasonable idea that combines mine and your ideas.

Quite the reverse: the business case is improved by reducing capital outlay (turnback facility at Gisburn). Settle/Long Preston/Hellifield is a reasonable potential source (you'd need decent connections of course), and there is certainly a Ribble Valley-Skipton market (you only have to drive the A59 at peak times to know).

Probably, and it would be daft not to serve Earby etc - but if even they haven't identified West Craven-Lancs as a market that probably means it's negligible.

I wasn't referring to Chatburn as a Parkway but as a location for housing develooment (which would be within car-free distance of a starion).

You obviously know Barlick better than I, but I still think they will continue look to Leeds, which is considerably nearer than Manchester.
It's not a coincidence that the parishioners demanded to remain ecclesiastically in Yorkshire when the (C of E) Dioceses Commission wanted to align the diocesan and county boundaries 10 years ago

The issue with extending to Hellifield is it means you'd probably make an extension using the same unit unviable and mess up the paths through Manchester.
But it could be worth additional units if the Leeds - Keighley - Skipton - Hellifield (split) --> Morecambe/Carlisle service pattern was chosen for the connection options.

On SELRAP's plans, I would suggest the roughly 30 min frequency on the M5 and M6 buses from Barnoldswick and Earby mean the demand is hardly negligible, and the daily traffic jams on the A682 in Barrowford, plus the A6068 Vivary Way in Colne (between the end of the M56 and the A56 towards Earby/Barnoldswick/Skipton) are pretty notorious.

Chatburn as a location for development is pretty hamstrung by the proximity of the Bowland AONB as mentioned above, and the powerful local landowners obstructing it (hence why the A59 Clitheroe-Whalley Bypass was built in a cutting round there).

As for the West Craven towns and villages, there'll always be some that want to be in Yorkshire or still think of themselves as Yorkshiremen/women, but there's a fair bit of economic links to the businesses around Colne/Burnley/Blackburn/Preston/Accrington.
Not linked with Manchester as much, but as you acknowledge, that's a factor of distance if anything.

 

[deltic08]

I think splitting/combining units at Hellifield for Morecambe/ Carlisle is a terrible idea. Northbound would not be too bad but headway on the Settle-Carlisle is 20 minutes. It might be less between Hellifield and Settle Junction but one unit is going to have to wait at least 10 minutes for the other one to clear Settle Junction. This is not saving fuel or crew costs so would be better to run as now and give Gargrave and Hellifield a more frequent service. Please let me know if things on the ground are different. These journeys are long enough as it is without extra waiting.
The same applies in the southbound direction but made worse by one unit running late and the other having to wait at Hellifield.
Will the spare crew ride the cushions from Skipton to Hellifield or join/leave the second unit at Hellifield?
It would be nice if Skipton-Hellifield was electrified or even to Ribblehead and one Leeds-Skipton train an hour extended to Hellifield or Ribblehead. This would allow battery bimodes from Leeds to just about reach Carlisle. If not electrify from Carlisle back towards Appleby for recharging.
Skipton-Hellifield only has 5 arched bridges to lift. Some may have sufficient clearance and not need lifting.
This won't happen beyond Hellifield as the BCR is not great enough.

 

[Bertie the bus]

It would be nice if Skipton-Hellifield was electrified or even to Ribblehead and one Leeds-Skipton train an hour extended to Hellifield or Ribblehead. This would allow battery bimodes from Leeds to just about reach Carlisle. If not electrify from Carlisle back towards Appleby for recharging.

An hourly electric service to Ribblehead! Seriously?

Hellifield is a nothing place in the middle of nowhere but it resembles downtown Manhattan in comparison to Ribblehead. Ribblehead consists of a pub and about 8 houses.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I think splitting/combining units at Hellifield for Morecambe/ Carlisle is a terrible idea. Northbound would not be too bad but headway on the Settle-Carlisle is 20 minutes. It might be less between Hellifield and Settle Junction but one unit is going to have to wait at least 10 minutes for the other one to clear Settle Junction. This is not saving fuel or crew costs so would be better to run as now and give Gargrave and Hellifield a more frequent service. Please let me know if things on the ground are different. These journeys are long enough as it is without extra waiting.

What infrastructure improvements would you need to enable the hourly split?

 

[zwk500]

What infrastructure improvements would you need to enable the hourly split?

Resignalling Hellifield to allow the attachment, for one. You also might want to shorten the block section from Carnforth Station Junction to Settle Junction.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Resignalling Hellifield to allow the attachment, for one. You also might want to shorten the block section from Carnforth Station Junction to Settle Junction.

Is it token based on the Bentham line? So perhaps a token box at Bentham.
And are there any free levers (at the box for Hellifield - assume it's mechanical?)

 

[M&NEJ]

Is it token based on the Bentham line? So perhaps a token box at Bentham.

No, it's double track throughout with signal boxes at Carnforth Station Junction and Settle Junction. A set of intermediate block signals each way would be the simplest way to increase capacity.

 

[AlastairFraser]

No, it's double track throughout with signal boxes at Carnforth Station Junction and Settle Junction. A set of intermediate block signals each way would be the simplest way to increase capacity.

How much would that cost to implement?

 

[deltic08]

An hourly electric service to Ribblehead! Seriously?

Hellifield is a nothing place in the middle of nowhere but it resembles downtown Manhattan in comparison to Ribblehead. Ribblehead consists of a pub and about 8 houses.

Don't sound so patronising. Do you dislike Hellifield because you live there? I bet others living in Hellifield don't call it a nowhere place. It is in the delightful Yorkshire Dales, has a railway station with a population of 1500 and slowly expanding.
Settle (pop.3000) would be the ideal terminating station but the nearest turnback facility is Ribblehead. You can always use your bus to provide an hourly connection from Skipton to Settle if so against the suggestion of extending the Leeds-Skipton service.
It is about to become a junction again with a Saturday service from Manchester to, wait for it, Ribblehead.
If you read what I actually said before jumping down my throat, I am suggesting electrifying to Ribblehead or better still Blea Moor tunnel entrance for when battery bimodes operate Leeds-Carlisle services. They do not have the charge to operate from Skipton-Carlisle and not enough wires to recharge the batteries in Carlisle on turnround. By electrifying to near the top of the climb at Blea Moor will save battery use on the climb from Settle.
It would also help Leeds-Lancaster battery bimodes by extending electrification to Hellifield.

 

[Bertie the bus]

What you are suggesting is fantasy rubbish. Even in this fantasy section of the forum suggestions should really have some basis in reality and yours don't. I don't dislike Hellifield at all. It is a perfectly pleasant little village in a very nice area of the country but it is a nothing place of no importance and the suggestion of running an hourly electric service to there, or to Ribblehead, from Leeds is a perfect example of why many line reopening / service enhancement suggestions are just laughed at.

 

[30907]

What you are suggesting is fantasy rubbish. Even in this fantasy section of the forum suggestions should really have some basis in reality and yours don't. I don't dislike Hellifield at all. It is a perfectly pleasant little village in a very nice area of the country but it is a nothing place of no importance and the suggestion of running an hourly electric service to there, or to Ribblehead, from Leeds is a perfect example of why many line reopening / service enhancement suggestions are just laughed at.

There is already an almost-hourly service to Hellifield. It is bigger than Cononley, pop. 1000-odd, which by accident of geography gets 4tph.

To respond constructively to Yankee54: I can't see any circumstances in which wires would go over Ribblehead on aesthetic grounds, and I doubt wires beyond Skipton would make that much difference to bi-mode viability to Carlisle.

 

[zwk500]

Is it token based on the Bentham line? So perhaps a token box at Bentham.

No, as mentioned it's Absolute Block. Provision of an additional box to shorten the sections is extremely unlikely to be authorised due to the staffing requirements and cost of changes.

And are there any free levers (at the box for Hellifield - assume it's mechanical?)

Few, if any according to other threads - and permissive working may require more than just a short arm (e.g. track circuits to verify platform occupancy, or changes to the interlocking setup). I can't find the thread now (might be on the re-establishment of Clitheroe-Hellifield thread) but apparently Hellifield was resignalled as part of the rationalisation, and the box sized to the existing layout.

How much would that cost to implement?

It depends how many signals there are and how far from the boxes they are. As IB signals normally require continuous track circuits or axle counters from the box to the signal, to have an even headway would require installing axle counters on 50% of the track mileage of the line. However on this line halving the headway isn't required, so it's possible signals could be closer to each box and therefore be cheaper to install. Even in it's most simple form, however, it's likely to cost a lot, which won't justify the traffic.

It is about to become a junction again with a Saturday service from Manchester to, wait for it, Ribblehead.

For 2 services each way, a day.

I am suggesting electrifying to Ribblehead or better still Blea Moor tunnel entrance for when battery bimodes operate Leeds-Carlisle services. They do not have the charge to operate from Skipton-Carlisle and not enough wires to recharge the batteries in Carlisle on turnround. By electrifying to near the top of the climb at Blea Moor will save battery use on the climb from Settle.
It would also help Leeds-Lancaster battery bimodes by extending electrification to Hellifield.

I don't see wires being extended from Skipton for aesthetic and practicality grounds. Fast-Charge installations along the line with a trickle-charged power bank to dump the power into the unit will be far more sensible for the amount of traffic that's ever going to be on offer. You might get some wires at the Carlisle end and half a mile more at Skipton to allow units to get around the corner, so to speak, but once the train is beyond Skipton it's not really in the way any more.

 

[AlastairFraser]

It depends how many signals there are and how far from the boxes they are. As IB signals normally require continuous track circuits or axle counters from the box to the signal, to have an even headway would require installing axle counters on 50% of the track mileage of the line. However on this line halving the headway isn't required, so it's possible signals could be closer to each box and therefore be cheaper to install. Even in it's most simple form, however, it's likely to cost a lot, which won't justify the traffic.

Thanks for the detailed explanation. It's a shame an hourly Leeds to Morecambe/Carlisle is currently not viable, but extending the Clitheroe services to Hellifield could still be a viable phase 2 of a Ribble Valley line extension.

 

[30907]

Thanks for the detailed explanation. It's a shame an hourly Leeds to Morecambe/Carlisle is currently not viable, but extending the Clitheroe services to Hellifield could still be a viable phase 2 of a Ribble Valley line extension.

The justification for an hourly service to Lancaster strikes me as remote (though the existing signalling would cope - as it does currently, with successive departures in mid-morningl).

 

[chris53]

Don't sound so patronising. Do you dislike Hellifield because you live there? I bet others living in Hellifield don't call it a nowhere place. It is in the delightful Yorkshire Dales, has a railway station with a population of 1500 and slowly expanding.
Settle (pop.3000) would be the ideal terminating station but the nearest turnback facility is Ribblehead. You can always use your bus to provide an hourly connection from Skipton to Settle if so against the suggestion of extending the Leeds-Skipton service.
It is about to become a junction again with a Saturday service from Manchester to, wait for it, Ribblehead.
If you read what I actually said before jumping down my throat, I am suggesting electrifying to Ribblehead or better still Blea Moor tunnel entrance for when battery bimodes operate Leeds-Carlisle services. They do not have the charge to operate from Skipton-Carlisle and not enough wires to recharge the batteries in Carlisle on turnround. By electrifying to near the top of the climb at Blea Moor will save battery use on the climb from Settle.
It would also help Leeds-Lancaster battery bimodes by extending electrification to Hellifield.

Hellifield is a place I'm very fond of. Had some memorable holidays in that area with my late mother before she died. I agree it Is a delightful place