Research Inquiry - Busy commuter trains!

[duggie_1001]

Does anybody know anywhere that i can get in to see a carriage being re-fitted or being assembled? i really need to see the seats going in to help me understand my new system.

Thanks.

 

[bnsf734]

Hi

I have enjoyed reading this thread so far.

The only UK company building rail vehicles currently is Bombardier Transportation in Derby, who, if you contacted may allow you to visit the plant. There is also another smaller company in Derby (Delta Rail) who are currently refurbishing East Midland Trains class 158's which involve new seats.

Hope this helps

Calvin

 

[duggie_1001]

So two more questions i have,

Is there a maximum number or weight of passengers allowed in any carraige at one time?

Also what are the regulations with regard to seat back heights? i have read they must be higher than an average male, but have also seen some designs in trains with folding seats where there is nothing infront of them so am a bit confused!

Thanks

Ryan

 

[stiffy]

Just sent you a PM but I'm not sure if its actually sent as I've not made 5 posts yet lol

If you havnt got it then send me a PM with your email address? I have some info I think you'll find useful (doing a similar project myself for uni!)

rob

 

[duggie_1001]

Hi rob,

I recieved your PM i cannot send you one back though because it says "you have chosen not to receive private messages". My email is [email protected] it would be awesome if you could send me the info. How are you finding the project so far...My research is taking forever

Many thanks,

Ryan

 

[Helvellyn]

What nobody has mentioned yet is hand and grab rails. If you have a seating layout that can be altered, then you need to think about those. Particularly if the seating layout were to be changed from say an outer-suburban type with airline and/or facing seats to a metro type with longitudual seating.

One thing SWT did when it refurbished the 455 stock, chnaging the seating from low-backed 3+2 to high-backed 2+2 was to increase the number of hand and grab rails thoughout the coach. This was to encouarge standing passengers to move into the coach, so they'd have something to hold onto. It was also the reason they switched to a 2+2 seating layout, so that standing passengers in the peak had more room. In a sense it was similar to the way tube trains have moved from having some seats in a 2+2 layout to being all longitudual seating. In the peaks (and central London) it gives more standing room. Off-peak, it's generally easy to get a seat, and the same applies on the SWT 455 units. They are certainly easier to walk through than a Class 450 with 3+2 seating.

Compare this to a Southern Class 455 unit, where new seats were fitted but the original 3+2 layout was retained.

SWT also gave more room in the entrance vestibules to speed up boarding/alighting. The doors were also modified to open to their full width, something those on the Southern units do not.

 

[duggie_1001]

hi,

I see on the first image there is no draft shield by the doors. I was thinking of doing this on my concept but didn't think it would be accepted. Obviously its viable... is it effective?

 

[northwichcat]

The Class 150 Sprinters are an interesting one.

The original seating configuration was 3+2: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a5/British_Rail_Class_150_interior.jpg

In the West Country 2+2 seating with some tables was introduced:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:150233_C_Half_Internal.JPG

Some 150s in the North West are inbetween the 2 as they got refurbished with 3+2 seating using larger seats but no tables. Try searching for 'North Western Trains refurbished 150 Sprinter' or something along those lines. I've not been unsuccessful in finding one.


The Class 142 Pacer are also an interesting one. They all started with 3+2 seating like http://avocetlinerailusers.wikispac...16-09-07...Newton-Heath...S-Thew.JPG/31408549

The South Wales and North East units got refurbished with 2+2 seating like http://www.revival.stormshadow.com/railways/harrogate-line-2009/dscf5207.jpg

Ones in Merseyside got refurbished with even more 3+2 seats and people struggle to sit one to each seat unless they're school kids. Again I can't find an interior picture.


I think the door arrangement on trains is also an issue. If you look at the 142s they have 3 double doors for small carriages http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:142009_C_Exeter_St_Davids.JPG This leads to longer loading and unloading times and frequently people are standing on the doorways, which makes matters worse.

 

[jopsuk]

Grab rails- the SWT style grab rails are also a lot more likely to be used than the grab points on the souther seating, as you're not reaching behind someone's head to use them.

Seating- I'm sure I've seen pictures of Pacers of some variety with manual reversible seat backs? As for the underground, on the tube stock that still has transverse seating I avoid it unless it's quiet- very small seats.

Doors- if the connector between the carriages was wider and the doors wider as well, then in theory three doors should be "enough" on a two car pacer- it is the same length as one and a half sprinter carriages. Works out at the same lenght-door ratio, essentially one set of doors for every ten metres of carriage.

 

[northwichcat]

Seating- I'm sure I've seen pictures of Pacers of some variety with manual reversible seat backs? As for the underground, on the tube stock that still has transverse seating I avoid it unless it's quiet- very small seats.

It must have been 141s or the prototype Pacer. The only place I've seen that is on a Blackpool tram.

Doors- if the connector between the carriages was wider and the doors wider as well, then in theory three doors should be "enough" on a two car pacer- it is the same length as one and a half sprinter carriages. Works out at the same lenght-door ratio, essentially one set of doors for every ten metres of carriage.

You need to be aware that 2 car 142s in Northern territory can carry 180 passengers, despite only having 102-121 seats. A 150 carrying that number of passengers is officially full and would have less people blocking the doorways.

Also note it's not just the number of people on the train, it's how many board and alight at intermediary stations. If 100 board and 100 alight at a station half way along the line then it causes delays if it's 142 operated compared to a Sprinter.

 

[Helvellyn]

hi,

I see on the first image there is no draft shield by the doors. I was thinking of doing this on my concept but didn't think it would be accepted. Obviously its viable... is it effective?

There are some draft shields, though they are solid glass. Look carefully and you can see two perch seats mounted on the glass draft shield. On the driving coaches, of which this is one, they are not each side of the doors due to the layout used. But in the trailer coaches they are.

 

[duggie_1001]

Ahh yes i see them, Thanks

Am i right in assuming that the seats on the SWT 455 are aluminium backs with foam seating?

 

[northwichcat]

So two more questions i have,

Is there a maximum number or weight of passengers allowed in any carraige at one time?

Also what are the regulations with regard to seat back heights? i have read they must be higher than an average male, but have also seen some designs in trains with folding seats where there is nothing infront of them so am a bit confused!

Thanks

Ryan

The official DfT figure is the standing capacity is 35% of the seating capacity. In reality that's a load of rubbish as some Class 142 Pacers can't hold 35% of the seating capacity standing, while other seating arrangements have been designed to allow for extra standing so there is less chance of passengers being left behind.

There's no regulations whatsoever to seat backs. The Class 142 Pacers I have mentioned provide the most jolted ride you could ever imagine and most of them have standard British Leyland style bus seats and I've been on Pacers that have done emergency stops and I'm surprised Northern Rail haven't had 100+ whiplash claims each time.

 

[poshbakerloo]

The Transpennine and East Midlands route Manchester-Sheffield is so stupidly over crowded! They run 2/3 coach trains when it should be more like 4/5!

 

[northwichcat]

The Transpennine and East Midlands route Manchester-Sheffield is so stupidly over crowded! They run 2/3 coach trains when it should be more like 4/5!

And Manchester-Stockport-Sheffield is actually quiet compared to Manchester-Huddersfield-Leeds or Manchester-Warrington-Liverpool.

 

[Helvellyn]

The Transpennine and East Midlands route Manchester-Sheffield is so stupidly over crowded! They run 2/3 coach trains when it should be more like 4/5!

Blame DfT who won't let EMT and TPE buy/lease extra trains. EMT does hope to get some ex-LM 150 units to release some 158 units from local services next year in order to run 4-car trains between Nottingham and Liverpool.

 

[142094]

Not sure if this has been suggested before, but something along the lines of normal pull down seats which can be locked into the upright position (e.g. at the touch of a button when everyone is off the train). During off-peak they are normal seats, arranged lengthways along the train and not side to side, then when it is peak time there is more room for standing passengers and the seats provide a small ledge for standing passengers to rest on, but not actually sit down. I've seen these on some Tube stock but some of the seats are always in the down position.