Reservable trains and non reservable trains

[DeverseSam]

If I book a LNER advance ticket with a « connections » component, can I use any appropriate Thaneslink train ?

Is there a master source of which trains are reservable? eg a website listing which specific trains ?

 

[JonathanH]

If I book a LNER advance ticket with a « connections » component, can I use any appropriate Thaneslink train ?

Is there a master source of which trains are reservable? eg a website listing which specific trains ?

Not necessarily. It depends on the route. Some Thameslink trains on the longer distance routes are now reservable. If the ticket shows a specific train on the connection you have to use it. The other way round is a bit more vague.

The National Rail timetable has a reservable symbol against trains which are reservable.

Also open data sites such as Realtimetrains show if a train is reservable - eg this Thameslink service from Brighton to Bedford is marked as 'Reservations available' https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C37520/2022-10-24/detailed

If being cynical, one of the reasons a train may be made 'Reservations available' is precisely to block the use of advance tickets of other operators at lower price quotas, although I don't know if that has ever been proved.

However, a very obvious example of this (and I am not giving anything away because GWR are fully aware and have acted on it) is Greater Anglia advance fares on one specific route between the Cotswolds and East Anglia. There are four levels of fare OS1, OS2, OS3 and OS4. It is only possible to buy the most expensive of these fares at the OS4 level because GWR don't ever release any quota for the three cheaper fare tiers.

 

[DeverseSam]

Thank you.

Is it prosecutable to not fully respect the reservations on the « connections » bit?

 

[Haywain]

If being cynical, one of the reasons a train may be made 'Reservations available' is precisely to block the use of advance tickets of other operators at lower price quotas, although I don't know if that has ever been proved.

I think it could also be to remove the option of Advance tickets being used as flexible tickets.

 

[30907]

Thank you.

Is it prosecutable to not fully respect the reservations on the « connections » bit?

No, but you would be liable to be charged the cheapest available walk-up fare - and in theory that would be for the whole journey not just the TL element.
You would IMO be unlucky to have that happen if you caught a train 15min earlier from (say) East Croydon, but that is the official rule.

Some websites (including NRE, but that doesn't sell tickets) allow you to add extra time for changing trains, but you would still probably be tied to a specific TL train - unfortunately LNER don't do this.
Or it may be possible to put in a "via" point that puts you on a non-reservable train.

 

[island]

Thameslink does not enforce the use of specific trains on +Connections advance tickets (although that is not to say they will not do so sometime in the future).

 

[JonathanH]

Thameslink does not enforce the use of specific trains on +Connections advance tickets (although that is not to say they will not do so sometime in the future).

Where is that recorded?

(Obviously the booking engines enforce it in as much as if no quota is available the through advance fare won't be possible to purchase.)

 

[Watershed]

Thameslink does not enforce the use of specific trains on +Connections advance tickets (although that is not to say they will not do so sometime in the future).

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Thameslink now offer their own Advance tickets on some of the major flows. I would have thought that RPIs would be trained/briefed accordingly.

 

[paul1609]

It would be good to see Thameslink and connections advances for flows like Brighton to York changing at Petetborough undercutting the "london premium" charged by LNER.
Thameslink control 129 miles out of 241 of this flow.

 

[Haywain]

It would be good to see Thameslink and connections advances for flows like Brighton to York changing at Petetborough undercutting the "london premium" charged by LNER.
Thameslink control 129 miles out of 241 of this flow.

As the only way of getting from Peterborough to York would be on an LNER train, why would LNER allow any quota for tickets undercutting their own?

 

[miklcct]

As the only way of getting from Peterborough to York would be on an LNER train, why would LNER allow any quota for tickets undercutting their own?

As the only way of getting from Brighton to London would be on a GTR train, GTR can set its own Advance fares for changing at Peterborough.

 

[paul1609]

Im not sure quite how it works but I envisage GTR taking LNERs Peterborough to York Advances (lowest tier £13.50) adding its own Brighton to Peterborough Advance (lowest tier £23.60) as a Thameslink & Connections Advance (lowest tier £36.10) undercutting LNERs London to York (lowest tier £42.10).
LNER are obviously charging a premium for the London to Peterborough section at a rate per mile they dont charge anywhere else.

 

[miklcct]

As the only way of getting from Peterborough to York would be on an LNER train, why would LNER allow any quota for tickets undercutting their own?

In this case after GTR introduce its own Advances, if LNER doesn't release quota for them GTR can also respond with not releasing quota for them between London and Brighton as well. However, this requires making Gatwick Express trains reservable as non-reservable trains can always be used as the connection regardless of price level.

 

[Haywain]

Im not sure quite how it works

Evidently. But the reality is that GTR cannot simply choose an LNER price level and include it in a completely different ticket type, while charging almost double that rate for only just over half the total journey. If you want to pay a lower fare than the through LNER priced Advance fare I would recommend you try a ticket splitting website for your purchase.

LNER are obviously charging a premium for the London to Peterborough section at a rate per mile they dont charge anywhere else.

Now, why would prices be higher on the section of route which consistently has the heaviest loadings?

 

[AY1975]

Some Thameslink trains on the longer distance routes are now reservable.

Thameslink now offer their own Advance tickets on some of the major flows.

Do they actually allocate you a specific seat if you travel on such a train and make a reservation or have a Thameslink Advance ticket, or is it just a "counted place" reservation?

 

[paul1609]

Do they actually allocate you a specific seat if you travel on such a train and make a reservation or have a Thameslink Advance ticket, or is it just a "counted place" reservation?

They are counted places but given the nature of the routes that they are available on thats unlikely to be a problem.
On the Brighton Line its basically Gatwick Airport and south of to St Albans and North to Bedford, Hitchin and north to Peterborough and Kings Lynn.

 

[route101]

Pretty sure Scotrail don't enforce it between Edinburgh and Glasgow. I often get an earlier train than what the connection states for Edinburgh.

 

[Hadders]

Do they actually allocate you a specific seat if you travel on such a train and make a reservation or have a Thameslink Advance ticket, or is it just a "counted place" reservation?

Just a counted place. Thameslink trains are designed to ghave fewer seats so more people can stand.

I got into a bit of an argument last year with Thameslink customer services about their trains being reservable. This is an issue when using Thameslink as a connection into a longer distance Advance because yiu get issued with a compulsory reservation, meaning that you cannot take an earlier connection which anyone would consider entirely reasonable.

They tried to tell me that having a reservation would 'guarantee me a seat on the train (yeah, right!)
They then tried to tell me that they would check tickets at stations like St Pancras to make sure passengers boarded the corrrect train (I'd like to see them try)
Finally they claimed they didn't offer seat reservations on their trains, when I sent them one they said 'ah that's issued by a 3rd party retailer, we don't issue them'.

They completely missed the point.

 

[mangyiscute]

I have very frequently gotten on an earlier train at Paddington going to Reading than was scheduled, and also have taken a later train from Reading to Paddington than the booked journey and never had any issues - this train is not the one specified on the advance ticket (like on the paper ticket it will say "valid on the 14:45 Leeds to Kings Cross" or something like that, with no mention of the GWR service) so the inspector would have no way of telling which train you were meant to be on anyway

 

[miklcct]

like on the paper ticket it will say "valid on the 14:45 Leeds to Kings Cross" or something like that, with no mention of the GWR service

This is only possible if you have forced a non-reservable train in the journey planner. Under normal circumstances, because the fastest high-speed trains are all reservable, you will be booked a reservation on the high-speed train which ties you onto the service.

 

[JonathanH]

the inspector would have no way of telling which train you were meant to be on anyway

Not true - the only non reservable trains between Paddington and Reading are those formed of 345s and 387s. The only way to get a through advance ticket without a reservation is to include one of these trains in the itinerary.

In theory at least, someone checking tickets on a fast line service could ask why you don't have a reservation for that train.

It would be interesting to know what happens with e-tickets in due course with such itineraries but for the time being they aren't offered for journeys involving the underground.

 

[Hadders]

It would be interesting to know what happens with e-tickets in due course with such itineraries but for the time being they aren't offered for journeys involving the underground.

The itinerary and associated seat reservations are on the eticket, just like on a paper ticket.

 

[JonathanH]

The itinerary and associated seat reservations are on the eticket, just like on a paper ticket.

Indeed, so when checked, the ticket inspector should see that the ticket doesn't match the train, and get an appropriate warning notification.

 

[mangyiscute]

Not true - the only non reservable trains between Paddington and Reading are those formed of 345s and 387s. The only way to get a through advance ticket without a reservation is to include one of these trains in the itinerary.

In theory at least, someone checking tickets on a fast line service could ask why you don't have a reservation for that train.

It would be interesting to know what happens with e-tickets in due course with such itineraries but for the time being they aren't offered for journeys involving the underground.

If I use a paper ticket, the ticket will specify the exact LNER train that I have to travel on but the GWR train is only specified on the seat reservation ticket, which you aren't required to have on you and you don't need to show the ticket inspector, so they cannot tell which GWR train you are supposed to be on from the paper ticket alone - and as I said, I've never had an issue getting on a different train for the Paddington to Reading leg

 

[Wallsendmag]

If I use a paper ticket, the ticket will specify the exact LNER train that I have to travel on but the GWR train is only specified on the seat reservation ticket, which you aren't required to have on you and you don't need to show the ticket inspector, so they cannot tell which GWR train you are supposed to be on from the paper ticket alone - and as I said, I've never had an issue getting on a different train for the Paddington to Reading leg

Does it not say coupon 1 of 2 on your ticket? If you're on a reservable service you should have a reservation otherwise your ticket is invalid.

 

[alistairlees]

Just a counted place. Thameslink trains are designed to ghave fewer seats so more people can stand.

I got into a bit of an argument last year with Thameslink customer services about their trains being reservable. This is an issue when using Thameslink as a connection into a longer distance Advance because yiu get issued with a compulsory reservation, meaning that you cannot take an earlier connection which anyone would consider entirely reasonable.

They tried to tell me that having a reservation would 'guarantee me a seat on the train (yeah, right!)
They then tried to tell me that they would check tickets at stations like St Pancras to make sure passengers boarded the corrrect train (I'd like to see them try)
Finally they claimed they didn't offer seat reservations on their trains, when I sent them one they said 'ah that's issued by a 3rd party retailer, we don't issue them'.

They completely missed the point.

There needs to be a facepalm emoji on here. Blaming other retailers for things that are data driven / nothing to do with the other retailer is a corrosive culture that must be stamped out.

 

[Hadders]

If I use a paper ticket, the ticket will specify the exact LNER train that I have to travel on but the GWR train is only specified on the seat reservation ticket, which you aren't required to have on you and you don't need to show the ticket inspector, so they cannot tell which GWR train you are supposed to be on from the paper ticket alone - and as I said, I've never had an issue getting on a different train for the Paddington to Reading leg

I'm afraid this is incorrect.

If you travel on an Advance ticket then you must travel on the trains detailed on your ticket. Sometimes the seat reservations won't all fit onto the ticket itself and are detailed on a separate seat reservations coupon (which will normally state 'compulsory reservation' on it). If there is no seat reservation for a particular portion of the journey then you may travel on any reasonable unreservable train.

In your case you might not have enountered an issue between Paddington and Reading but that doesn't mean you won't face an issue in the future.

 

[miklcct]

In theory at least, someone checking tickets on a fast line service could ask why you don't have a reservation for that train.

This is something I have done before - choosing an unreservable service for part of the journey to circumvent quota restriction, obtaining a paper ticket such that the train wouldn't be printed, and travelling on a fast train on that portion of the journey.

This may come in one of the following two forms:
1. I choose an unreservable train, for example, Woking to Basingstoke, to connect to a reservable train, for example, Basingstoke to Bournemouth, when choosing another reservable train for that portion will push the price up. I eventually travel on another reservable train on the portion without a reservation, i.e. Woking to Basingstoke, in order to connect to my booked train from Basingstoke to Bournemouth.
2. I choose an unreservable train to connect to a reservable train, for a journey which can be done wholly on the reservable train, for example, Stratford to Norwich by forcing a connection from an unreservable train at Colchester, when making a reservation for the whole journey will push up the price. I eventually travel on my booked train from Stratford to Norwich without making a change.

I have got my ticket checked by the guard in scenario 1 above and there wasn't any problem at all, with the guard just telling me to change at Basingstoke.

Can anyone tell me if the above is officially allowed or not, i.e. travelling on a reservable train for the connection bit, when no reservation is made?

I can now think of the following examples:
1. Someone buys an LNER & Connections ticket to travel from Clapham Junction to York. The Clapham Junction to Victoria connection generated by the journey planner is on a reservable train, which is then printed on the ticket. According to the rules he must travel on the exact train from Clapham Junction to Victoria, however, it is not possible to identify the train as they don't run to a schedule, and eventually he gets on a wrong train. He is then penalty fared by a Southern revenue inspector.
2. Someone buys an LNER & Connections ticket to travel from Clapham Junction to York. The Clapham Junction to Victoria connection generated by the journey planner is on a unreservable train, which is not shown on the ticket. However, it is not possible to know if a train is reservable or not at Clapham Junction. He boarded the first train towards London Victoria and it's, unknowingly to him, a reservable train. The inspector then questions him if he is travelling according to the itinerary because he should have a reservation on that train.

 

[mangyiscute]

I'm afraid this is incorrect.

If you travel on an Advance ticket then you must travel on the trains detailed on your ticket. Sometimes the seat reservations won't all fit onto the ticket itself and are detailed on a separate seat reservations coupon (which will normally state 'compulsory reservation' on it). If there is no seat reservation for a particular portion of the journey then you may travel on any reasonable unreservable train.

In your case you might not have enountered an issue between Paddington and Reading but that doesn't mean you won't face an issue in the future.

If you buy an advance ticket from say Leeds to Reading, the ticket will say "valid on specified LNER train(s) & connections" or something like that. It will show the LNER train and seat number that you must travel on, but it will not reference the GWR service. Unless you are suggesting that I must being the reservation tickets with me (which i am almost certain you don't have to), there is no way a ticket inspector can tell which GWR train you shouldve been on.

 

[island]

If you buy an advance ticket from say Leeds to Reading, the ticket will say "valid on specified LNER train(s) & connections" or something like that. It will show the LNER train and seat number that you must travel on, but it will not reference the GWR service. Unless you are suggesting that I must being the reservation tickets with me (which i am almost certain you don't have to), there is no way a ticket inspector can tell which GWR train you shouldve been on.

If your advance ticket has not got enough space to print the required train, it will bear wording such as "valid only with reservations", as such you do have to bring the reservation tickets with you.