Reused Anytime short distance return ticket

[Bletchleyite]

Have you ALWAYS purchased a valid ticket for each day and can you prove this e.g. by way of your purchase history, regardless of what you scanned, and was that always purchased before boarding?

You may not want to answer that, but if the answer is "no" you probably want to look to settle.

 

[Undiscovered]

What should a guard say if they scan the return portion of a ticket which allows break of journey somewhere towards the end of the journey, and it indicates that it has already been scanned? The passenger may have broken their journey on a previous day and be resuming it, perfectly within the validity.

There’s only proof of misuse if the same ticket is scanned twice in the same segment of the journey on different days, surely? So this might explain why a guard didn’t mention this at the time.

This may have already been answered below, but the system, depending on exactly which one it is, isn't always the fastest at cross checking data.
While it is true that, when you scan a ticket, it should flag that it's already been used, in reality, it will only flag immediately if it's been seen by that particular machine that day. This prevents ticket sharing on the same journey.
You can interrogate the ticket further, and request its scan history, but this takes time- depends on phone signal, response times from databases, when (if) the ticket was used previously, etc. You don't really have the time to stand around waiting for the info to come back.
Personally, I've accepted tickets that initially scan as ok, but then show as rejected later on as the system has updated itself with the correct info. By then, the customer is long gone, so there's no opportunity to question or warn them.

 

[Sheffcaster202]

You can interrogate the ticket further, and request its scan history, but this takes time- depends on phone signal, response times from databases, when (if) the ticket was used previously, etc. You don't really have the time to stand around waiting for the info to come back.

When I scan a ticket it comes up immediately with its scan history.

For example if a passenger has come through a gate line at Leeds I’ll see the first scan, if they’ve change train I’ll see the previous train scan (including the service it was scanned on) and all scans have exact date and time on so I can easily see if it’s been used on a previous day.

When scanning we get all the ticket info and if it’s been scanned before a blue square shows that we can click on and get the full history straight away.

I can then judge if it’s a break of journey, repeated use of the return portion, newly bought and scanned at gate or a mid journey scan and take any (if appropriate) action

 

[Undiscovered]

When I scan a ticket it comes up immediately with its scan history.

For example if a passenger has come through a gate line at Leeds I’ll see the first scan, if they’ve change train I’ll see the previous train scan (including the service it was scanned on) and all scans have exact date and time on so I can easily see if it’s been used on a previous day.

When scanning we get all the ticket info and if it’s been scanned before a blue square shows that we can click on and get the full history straight away.

I can then judge if it’s a break of journey, repeated use of the return portion, newly bought and scanned at gate or a mid journey scan and take any (if appropriate) action

We get all that info too. Just not always quick enough to actually act on...
Purchase after depart is just comparing programmed departure time to ticket purchase, but requires a bit of nouse to work out how late your train is to check actual validity!

 

[RCP]

Have you ALWAYS purchased a valid ticket for each day and can you prove this e.g. by way of your purchase history, regardless of what you scanned, and was that always purchased before boarding?

You may not want to answer that, but if the answer is "no" you probably want to look to settle.

I often get lifts home from Manchester, one of the reasons I save so many open return tickets to my wallet and do not delete them. I have bought just singles in the past but most of the time i just buy open returns daily due to the extra cost being minimal. I guess the best thing i can do is wait for the dates in question and see if i can prove a purchased ticket for that date.

 

[Towers]

Regularly producing a used ticket when you are in possession of an unused ticket with a one month validity whiffs quite a lot of attempted fare evasion to me. It would suggest that the intention is end up not having to buy tickets for every time you travel, and that avoids the fare and means money is owed. Only the OP knows what they have been doing and what the real intention might have been, but if the pattern suggests what I have outlined then the rail company are right to be concerned and justified in asking questions.

Indeed, but again unless a journey or journeys have actually been made without payment, surely there is no offence? You can pick something up from the shelf in a supermarket and hide it in your pocket, but unless you leave you haven’t stolen it, etc etc. So the TOC may well ask questions but it isn’t at all clear what grounds exist for actually taking any action?

 

[AlterEgo]

Indeed, but again unless a journey or journeys have actually been made without payment, surely there is no offence? You can pick something up from the shelf in a supermarket and hide it in your pocket, but unless you leave you haven’t stolen it, etc etc.

Attempting to shoplift something is an offence! Gosh, I really hope the average person is a bit more clued up on this.

So the TOC may well ask questions but it isn’t at all clear what grounds exist for actually taking any action?

RORA:

(3)If any person—

(a)Travels or attempts to travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare, and with intent to avoid payment thereof

Attempting to commit fare evasion is an offence. This requires intent, which may be difficult to prove, but not impossible in retrospect.

 

[fandroid]

I often get lifts home from Manchester, one of the reasons I save so many open return tickets to my wallet and do not delete them. I have bought just singles in the past but most of the time i just buy open returns daily due to the extra cost being minimal. I guess the best thing i can do is wait for the dates in question and see if i can prove a purchased ticket for that date.

At last we can see where the big risks lie in the OP's undisciplined approach to open return tickets. From here on*, they should fastidiously delete all used tickets, especially the return portions, immediately those journeys are completed. Whether there was intent or not, there's obviously been a huge risk that offences have been committed. Sadly, lack of intent is no defence against a byelaw prosecution.

* a record and archive of all historic tickets and journeys should be maintained, but in a place where those that are still in date cannot be re-used.

Edit: typo corrected

 

[Towers]

Attempting to shoplift something is an offence! Gosh, I really hope the average person is a bit more clued up on this.


RORA:

(3)If any person—

(a)Travels or attempts to travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare, and with intent to avoid payment thereof

Attempting to commit fare evasion is an offence. This requires intent, which may be difficult to prove, but not impossible in retrospect.

Indeed, but you’ve hit the nail on the head with “difficult to prove”. TOCs like ‘slam dunk’, and we often hear how the intent is proven with the RPIs’ favourite question “did you intend to avoid payment”, in this case that’s a hard “no”.

There’s also the consideration here that the OP was using barcode tickets, and therefore would be very well aware that a person checking the ticket will identify that it has been used previously. The OP states that this happened on a number of occasions. Why would the OP therefore have intentionally continued to offer used tickets, knowing very well that they would be rejected? The far more likely explanation is the one that the OP has given, no?

 

[Haywain]

in this case that’s a hard “no”.

Is it?

The far more likely explanation is the one that the OP has given, no?

Its difficult to say without the benefit of seeing whatever the train company have as evidence and without being inside the OP's head to know the truth of the matter.

 

[Towers]

Is it?

Well, for argument’s sake we’ll say yes!

 

[tspaul26]

You can pick something up from the shelf in a supermarket and hide it in your pocket, but unless you leave you haven’t stolen it, etc etc.

Supermarket analogies are, as usual, not helpful.

The part I have highlighted in bold above is in particular fundamentally wrong as a matter of law.

 

[Towers]

Supermarket analogies are, as usual, not helpful.

The part I have highlighted in bold above is in particular fundamentally wrong as a matter of law.

I take your point; both unhelpful and largely irrelevant here I accept.

It would be most interesting to see a TOC take this forwards for prosecution, as it may result in the unusual spectacle of an actual court battle as opposed to a succession of guilty parties being given their fines and a matter of formality.

 

[Sultan]

I would agree that supermarket analogies are indeed not comparable. Apparently (according to much news discussion recently), I can (currently) go into Co-op this afternoon, grab all the fillet steaks in the chiller cabinet and just walk out with them, and not be stopped. Yes it's against the law, but until there is more enforcement by either the police or security guards, it is only my morals and conscience that is stopping me from doing it.

Yet on the railway, I can be found guilty of not being in a position to show a valid ticket on demand when asked that I had previously purchased before alighting the train (be it lost, or a drained battery on the phone). I don't even get an opportunity to demonstrate afterwards that I had one.

It's a funny old world!

 

[Towers]

I would agree that supermarket analogies are indeed not comparable. Apparently (according to much news discussion recently), I can (currently) go into Co-op this afternoon, grab all the fillet steaks in the chiller cabinet and just walk out with them, and not be stopped. Yes it's against the law, but until there is more enforcement by either the police or security guards, it is only my morals and conscience that is stopping me from doing it.

Yet on the railway, I can be found guilty of not being in a position to show a valid ticket on demand when asked that I had previously purchased before alighting the train (be it lost, or a drained battery on the phone). I don't even get an opportunity to demonstrate afterwards that I had one.

It's a funny old world!

The difference here is that which you mention; morals and conscience. There are plenty of regular fare evaders on the network who have little care for being caught, the same applies to many of those clearing a shelf of expensive groceries in a shop. If crime is your chosen (or inherited) lifestyle then these things are largely trivial.

 

[skyhigh]

It would be most interesting to see a TOC take this forwards for prosecution, as it may result in the unusual spectacle of an actual court battle as opposed to a succession of guilty parties being given their fines and a matter of formality.

We have no idea what evidence the TOC hold and only have one side of the story. They may well have enough evidence to present a strong case which would result in a straightforward prosecution.

 

[Stargull]

Interesting case this. I know Trainline aren’t popular but their app has a very useful ‘mark ticket as used’ function which lets the user separate tickets they’ve travelled on from those they have not.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting case this. I know Trainline aren’t popular but their app has a very useful ‘mark ticket as used’ function which lets the user separate tickets they’ve travelled on from those they have not.

And you can just delete them out of Apple or Google Wallet.

 

[randyrippley]

Why wouldn't you simply throw away/delete the used ones?

So you've got proof of purchase when someone comes making false accusations in a year or so's time.....

 

[Bletchleyite]

So you've got proof of purchase when someone comes making false accusations in a year or so's time.....

You've got the email with the PDF. Store it in a folder called Used Tickets. Not hard.

Delay Repay claims prefer the PDF anyway.

 

[RCP]

Hi All, so after 4 emails from Northern Rail, they are dropping the case as they have insufficient evidence. They gave me 6 dates where a ticket was re-used, all in a span of 2 weeks. I questioned whether the app/conductors scanner had been faulty for this period due to have travelled the same route for 5 years, yet it seems i would commit this ticket offence for just 2 weeks. The dates given were also back in September and none since which also says to me maybe it was their side of things. On the dates given i had not purchased another ticket on my banking transactions and therefore had no explanation how i had been let off with invalid tickets. They haven't really put up a fight to this and seem to have just accepted defeat and closed to matter which makes me think could it have been something on their end? How many people are they scaring with the threat of court who will just pay the fine and move on? I can honestly say i have never not had a valid ticket on me therefore in my eyes was in the right (albeit i have been very lazy) i have always produced another ticket which was valid. Rail companies/gov can do one as far as im concerned. Overpriced, always delayed and cancelled. The UK is an absolute sh!t show

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Hi All, so after 4 emails from Northern Rail, they are dropping the case as they have insufficient evidence. They gave me 6 dates where a ticket was re-used, all in a span of 2 weeks. I questioned whether the app/conductors scanner had been faulty for this period due to have travelled the same route for 5 years, yet it seems i would commit this ticket offence for just 2 weeks. The dates given were also back in September and none since which also says to me maybe it was their side of things. On the dates given i had not purchased another ticket on my banking transactions and therefore had no explanation how i had been let off with invalid tickets. They haven't really put up a fight to this and seem to have just accepted defeat and closed to matter which makes me think could it have been something on their end? How many people are they scaring with the threat of court who will just pay the fine and move on? I can honestly say i have never not had a valid ticket on me therefore in my eyes was in the right (albeit i have been very lazy) i have always produced another ticket which was valid. Rail companies/gov can do one as far as im concerned. Overpriced, always delayed and cancelled. The UK is an absolute sh!t show

Thanks for letting us know - it's always useful for us when advising others to know what really happens.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Attempting to shoplift something is an offence! Gosh, I really hope the average person is a bit more clued up

No supermarket will stop you till you've passed the checkout without paying. How on earth could they prove you weren't going to pay otherwise?
Just last night I called in Lidl and didn't have a £1 coin for a trolley and all the baskets were in use, so I had to carry stuff and stuff it in pockets, then I put it all on the conveyor belt at the till-taking care I'd got everything out-no one stopped me in store claiming I wasn't going to pay!

 

[AlterEgo]

No supermarket will stop you till you've passed the checkout without paying. How on earth could they prove you weren't going to pay otherwise?

They will, and often do. We had a shoplifter arrested in the store when I worked in Homebase for stuffing a bag of compost up the back of his jumper in the garden centre area and then concealing it with a large coat, in summer. There was no need to let him leave first. Attempting to shoplift things is an offence! Here is the relevant law:

(5)The Criminal Attempts Act 1981 is amended as follows—

(a)in section 1 (attempting to commit an offence) after subsection (4) there is inserted—

“(5)This section also applies to low-value shoplifting (which is defined in, and is triable only summarily by virtue of, section 22A of the Magistrates' Courts Act 1980).”;

Just last night I called in Lidl and didn't have a £1 coin for a trolley and all the baskets were in use, so I had to carry stuff and stuff it in pockets, then I put it all on the conveyor belt at the till-taking care I'd got everything out-no one stopped me in store claiming I wasn't going to pay!

So? I ran a red light once and didn't get a ticket.

The point is that for offences which require intent, inchoate or not, your actions can signify intent. Here, you give a reasonable explanation why you would put some of your items in your pocket, and I assume you also had the means to pay on you, which would be good evidence against any allegation that your actions amounted to an attempt to shoplift things.

If you don't believe me, here is someone getting charged for attempted shoplifting...in a Lidl! https://www.hampshire.police.uk/new...sault-and-attempted-shoplifting-in-aldershot/

PS: if you find yourself with a coin for the trolley at Lidl, ask and they will use a token to unlock it for you!

Hi All, so after 4 emails from Northern Rail, they are dropping the case as they have insufficient evidence. They gave me 6 dates where a ticket was re-used, all in a span of 2 weeks. I questioned whether the app/conductors scanner had been faulty for this period due to have travelled the same route for 5 years, yet it seems i would commit this ticket offence for just 2 weeks. The dates given were also back in September and none since which also says to me maybe it was their side of things. On the dates given i had not purchased another ticket on my banking transactions and therefore had no explanation how i had been let off with invalid tickets. They haven't really put up a fight to this and seem to have just accepted defeat and closed to matter which makes me think could it have been something on their end? How many people are they scaring with the threat of court who will just pay the fine and move on? I can honestly say i have never not had a valid ticket on me therefore in my eyes was in the right (albeit i have been very lazy) i have always produced another ticket which was valid. Rail companies/gov can do one as far as im concerned. Overpriced, always delayed and cancelled. The UK is an absolute sh!t show

That's a good result for you, and well done for pushing back. It does seem they have insufficient evidence to mount any sort of charge, if the only thing they have is a set of scans, some of which were duplicates. This would never ever pass muster on its own in a court; this is an offence of intent which is much more difficult to prove than just a Bylaw "you didn't have a valid ticket" (for which you'd need to basically be caught, on the train or at the station, red handed). Train companies do often send correspondence alleging offences to see if you will confess to wrongdoing. It's not a great way to operate, but I'm glad you got a result in the end.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's a good result for you, and well done for pushing back. It does seem they have insufficient evidence to mount any sort of charge, if the only thing they have is a set of scans, some of which were duplicates. This would never ever pass muster on its own in a court; this is an offence of intent which is much more difficult to prove than just a Bylaw "you didn't have a valid ticket" (for which you'd need to basically be caught, on the train or at the station, red handed). Train companies do often send correspondence alleging offences to see if you will confess to wrongdoing. It's not a great way to operate, but I'm glad you got a result in the end.

The other thing is that there are legitimate reasons for buying what may appear to be short fares. Ignoring the recent oddity of that slight ticketing mess I got into at Exeter, my usual pattern is to buy walk-up tickets on the day using Trainline (I prefer the app but they're not getting any fees, plus they do a couple of handy splits without a fee I use a fair bit) but to book in advance using Trainsplit so I can use the seat selector. I thus have rather a lot of what look like MKC <-> Bletchley tickets on my Trainline account, which given the lack of scan at one end might look rather like short-faring but in fact are where I've just bought the extra bit* once I've realised there will be a decent connection, so it doesn't go through the gateline at MKC.

I've never had a letter for this, presumably because there is a possible legitimate use-case (and indeed if they did send me one I'd be able to send them all the long distance e-tickets that went with the alleged short fares and correspondingly had no scan in/out at MKC). So the scans alone aren't enough evidence to prove intent, as you say. However if they'd caught me at a gateline without the corresponding ticket, that would start alarm bells ringing and it'd be time to investigate.

(There are other short faring cases where this is unlikely to be legitimate, though - such as using one of the Overground stations from Euston to open the gateline there when you haven't come off an Overground train)

* Break of journey is often prohibited on the outward on long distance WCML tickets, so while MKC and BLY are usually the same price and gateline staff do tend to let people through I prefer not to risk any hassle for the sake of a couple of quid.

 

[shredder1]

No supermarket will stop you till you've passed the checkout without paying. How on earth could they prove you weren't going to pay otherwise?
Just last night I called in Lidl and didn't have a £1 coin for a trolley and all the baskets were in use, so I had to carry stuff and stuff it in pockets, then I put it all on the conveyor belt at the till-taking care I'd got everything out-no one stopped me in store claiming I wasn't going to pay!

That's not strictly true, if say you eat something in the store, not having paid for it, regardless of passing the checkouts, this is theft

 

[island]

That's not strictly true, if say you eat something in the store, not having paid for it, regardless of passing the checkouts, this is theft

No it isn't. Theft requires dishonesty to be proven, and if you intended to pay for the item at the checkouts, it would not be dishonest.

 

[shredder1]

No it isn't. Theft requires dishonesty to be proven, and if you intended to pay for the item at the checkouts, it would not be dishonest.

it is breaking the law according to section 6 of the theft act 1968

 

[island]

it is breaking the law according to section 6 of the theft act 1968

The Theft Act 1968 requires all of sections 2 to 6 to be met for an act to constitute theft, not just one of them.

 

[shredder1]

The Theft Act 1968 requires all of sections 2 to 6 to be met for an act to constitute theft, not just one of them.

I didn't say theft, I pointed to the act, it is illegal, and can be acted on,