Ridiculous fares in London

[rmt4ever]

My friend was booking a journey recently and it got me thinking, so I did a bit more research:

Travelling off peak according to online booking sites. London Paddington to West Drayton, travelling after 0930am, returning same day= £16.90 return.

London Paddington to Iver (further away), travelling after 0930am, returning same day= £10.60

Having a look, there are other similar examples of outrageous journey rip off's within London.

How is this right? And would the ticket office at London Paddington know to sell someone requesting the West Drayton journey, the cheaper Iver ticket and let them get off a stop early?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

London Paddington to/from West Drayton is £16.90 for an Anytime Day Return. There's seemingly no Off Peak Day Return equivalent, but savings can always be made by using Oyster / Pay as you go contactless.

London Paddington to/from Iver is £16.00 for an Anytime Day Return and £10.90 for an Off Peak Day Return. And yes, it's a mile or so further to Iver.

Presume that stopping short at West Drayton on such a London Paddington to /from Iver (walk up) Off Peak Day Return ticket would indeed be o.k.

 

[Haywain]

There's seemingly no Off Peak Day Return equivalent, but savings can always be made by using Oyster / Pay as you go contactless.

That applies for pretty much every journey within Greater London.

And would the ticket office at London Paddington know to sell someone requesting the West Drayton journey, the cheaper Iver ticket and let them get off a stop early?

The ticket would more likely ask questions and then advise on using contactless payment or sell a one-day travelcard.

 

[rmt4ever]

That applies for pretty much every journey within Greater London.

The ticket would more likely ask questions and then advise on using contactless payment or sell a one-day travelcard.

Why would you need a one day travelcard for a simple return journey

 

[alholmes]

If you use Oyster / Contactless then an off peak single between Paddington and West Drayton is only £3.60, so £7.20 return.

 

[PeterC]

Why would you need a one day travelcard for a simple return journey

If they had no wish or ability to use contactless an off peak travelcard would be slightly cheaper.

 

[JonathanH]

Having a look, there are other similar examples of outrageous journey rip off's within London.

How is this right?

It has been like this since 2010.

Off-peak 'paper' tickets (other than Travelcards) were abolished and people are expected to use Oyster and Contactless. Funnily enough, this is what people actually do. The simple intention was that people don't use 'paper' tickets for journeys wholly in Zones 1-6.

 

[Sonic1234]

Paper tickets within the London zones are punitively priced, with the exception of the Day Travelcard. For simple journeys, Oyster/Contactless is generally cheaper.

There are some times where using a paper ticket does have an advantage, the ones I can think of is if you have a railcard valid during the peak, if you want to break your journey and for security if connecting onto an Advance (so you can show its one journey if you get delayed).

 

[rmt4ever]

Is there anywhere else in the world where this would happen?? Only in London. It is a ridiculous situation.

Just price them the same, or maybe 10 or 20p discount for using a bank card if thats what they want to do.

 

[Watershed]

Is there anywhere else in the world where this would happen?? Only in London. It is a ridiculous situation.

Just price them the same, or maybe 10 or 20p discount for using a bank card if thats what they want to do.

In all fairness, although I maintain the view that the premium charged for paper tickets is unreasonable, it is hardly a phenomenon unique to London. There are many other cities which have similar surcharges for paper tickets or simply don't offer them at all.

 

[Sonic1234]

Just price them the same

It came around to push people towards Oyster. That being said, if paper tickets were reduced to the Oyster price I doubt you'd get many people switching back to paper.

It's probably more likely we'll see the London situation nationally, where people who choose paper tickets over contactless or e-tickets will pay a premium.

 

[Benjwri]

It's probably more likely we'll see the London situation nationally, where people who choose paper tickets over contactless or e-tickets will pay a premium.

Possibly in isolated areas, like PAYG in Bristol/Devon which discounts anytime singles for users. I don't think we'll ever see countrywide contactless, given the move towards advance tickets, or differentiating fares between paper and e-tickets, I would certainly pity whoever had to fill out an Equality Impact Assessment for that one.

 

[DaventryRabbit]

In all fairness, although I maintain the view that the premium charged for paper tickets is unreasonable, it is hardly a phenomenon unique to London. There are many other cities which have similar surcharges for paper tickets or simply don't offer them at all.

Melbourne Tram Network no longer has any Paper Tickets. Contactless or Local/Reigonal 'Myki' Card only.

 

[Haywain]

There are some times where using a paper ticket does have an advantage, the ones I can think of is if you have a railcard valid during the peak,

In this case the paper ticket would save 5p, and only against a return. No-one is going to worry about that.

 

[MikeWh]

Travelling off peak according to online booking sites. London Paddington to West Drayton, travelling after 0930am, returning same day= £16.90 return.

Which virtually no-one will do. They'll use Oyster/contactless, or possibly a travelcard.

London Paddington to Iver (further away), travelling after 0930am, returning same day= £10.60

Which is the same as contactless, largely because it's beyond the London zones.

How is this right? And would the ticket office at London Paddington know to sell someone requesting the West Drayton journey, the cheaper Iver ticket and let them get off a stop early?

To encourage people to switch to Oyster PAYG, off-peak single/return fares were abolished in 2010 for all journeys within zones 1-6.

In the early days of PAYG I made a few journeys from Barnehurst to Eltham in the evening peak. I was using a F&F railcard and went to the ticket office. I was sold off-peak day returns from Dartford to Eltham. When I queried why it was explained that it was cheaper because Dartford still has off-peak fares. Obviously I can't say if every ticket office person would do the same, but some will.

 

[yorkie]

And would the ticket office at London Paddington know to sell someone requesting the West Drayton journey, the cheaper Iver ticket and let them get off a stop early?

They shouldn't.

Ticket office staff are not supposed to "distort the market" by offering a ticket to a further destination. A Travelcard should be offered, if the customer didn't want to use Contactless/Oyster.

 

[fandroid]

In most European cities there are no return tickets as such, just singles and day tickets (ie Travelcard equivalents). If you cross the city's transport boundary (ie go beyond West Drayton) there are sure to be anomalies, as the London local ticketing system has been fundamentally different from the national one for a long time. Things are becoming more blurred (and potentially more confusing) with the extension of contactless, but that's relatively recent.

 

[redreni]

Abolishing off-peak fares was not, in my view, a sensible or proportionate means of encouraging take-up of PAYG. Increasing the off-peak ticket prices, but not PAYG prices, by a bit more than they would otherwise have risen would have been more proportionate and would have avoided the absurdity referred to by the OP.

Just in case any policy makers read this, the fact they got away with it in 2010 doesn't mean any decision to do the same thing over a wider area as contactless is rolled out further would be proportionate or legitimate. Especially if it continues to be the case that not all railcards can be used to obtain discounts on all PAYG journeys for which railcard discounts are available on the equivalent paper or e-tickets.

 

[yorkie]

Abolishing off-peak fares was not, in my view, a sensible or proportionate means of encouraging take-up of PAYG. Increasing the off-peak ticket prices, but not PAYG prices, by a bit more than they would otherwise have risen would have been more proportionate and would have avoided the absurdity referred to by the OP.

Just in case any policy makers read this, the fact they got away with it in 2010 doesn't mean any decision to do the same thing over a wider area as contactless is rolled out further would be proportionate or legitimate. Especially if it continues to be the case that not all railcards can be used to obtain discounts on all PAYG journeys for which railcard discounts are available on the equivalent paper or e-tickets.

To do this in the London area, where the Travelcard covered the entire area (and was not under any threat at the time; fortunately now reprieved!) and back when point-to-point tickets were mostly bought using expensive fulfilment methods (14 years ago), is one thing.

But to do that an era where, if done properly, e-tickets are very widely used and welcomed by passengers, in an area beyond that where a suitable zonal day ticket exists at a reasonable price, would be quite another. It would be totally unjustified and unacceptable.

 

[redreni]

To do this in the London area, where the Travelcard covered the entire area (and was not under any threat at the time; fortunately now reprieved!) and back when point-to-point tickets were mostly bought using expensive fulfilment methods (14 years ago), is one thing.

But to do that an era where, if done properly, e-tickets are very widely used and welcomed by passengers, in an area beyond that where a suitable zonal day ticket exists at a reasonable price, would be quite another. It would be totally unjustified and unacceptable.

Agreed that the travelcard is a partial mitigation, but the lack of off-peak returns affects people who only want to make one relatively short return journey. It's meant to nudge them to use PAYG but that adds 50% to a Network Railcard holder's fare at weekends. This can sometimes be mitigated in part by long-faring, but only by passengers who know that.

 

[yorkie]

Agreed that the travelcard is a partial mitigation, but the lack of off-peak returns affects people who only want to make one relatively short return journey. It's meant to nudge them to use PAYG but that adds 50% to a Network Railcard holder's fare at weekends. This can sometimes be mitigated in part by long-faring, but only by passengers who know that.

The real issue here is the anomaly with the Network Railcard and PAYG.

 

[redreni]

The real issue here is the anomaly with the Network Railcard and PAYG.

Well, yes.

Too difficult to fix, according to many. In which case we should stop penalising people for buying tickets!

 

[JonathanH]

Too difficult to fix

Not enough interest to fix, and almost certainly not seen as a problem.

 

[Craig1122]

Off peak London fares have increased enormously above inflation in some cases since the advent of contactless. To give one example:

Richmond to Twickenham is about 2.5 miles. Around the turn of the century was £1.60 return off peak after 0930. (Around £2.90 at current prices) You were also able to get a 1/3 discount with a network card taking it down to £1.05. Do that same journey now in the evening peak period and it's £3.20 each way with no discount available.

Abolition of 2-6 and family travelcards were also massive back door fare increases. There are some winners, mainly single journeys off peak but it would be interesting to see a 'true' figure Vs inflation.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Possibly in isolated areas, like PAYG in Bristol/Devon which discounts anytime singles for users. I don't think we'll ever see countrywide contactless, given the move towards advance tickets, or differentiating fares between paper and e-tickets, I would certainly pity whoever had to fill out an Equality Impact Assessment for that one.

There aren't many (Any?) disabilities where you could have a paper ticket but not an e-ticket. Indeed, many disabilities are disadvantaged by not having e-tickets. I have a blind friend who doesn't travel to Liverpool as they can't have a ticket "that talks to them" i.e. they can get their phone screen to read their e-ticket to them, but not their ccst ticket. In London they can log-in to their account to hear their journeys.
I can't think of any disability that's disadvantaged by PAYG or e-tickets, but am happy to be corrected.

 

[Benjwri]

There aren't many (Any?) disabilities where you could have a paper ticket but not an e-ticket. Indeed, many disabilities are disadvantaged by not having e-tickets. I have a blind friend who doesn't travel to Liverpool as they can't have a ticket "that talks to them" i.e. they can get their phone screen to read their e-ticket to them, but not their ccst ticket. In London they can log-in to their account to hear their journeys.
I can't think of any disability that's disadvantaged by PAYG or e-tickets, but am happy to be corrected

Equality Impact Assessments also have to think about age though. Some people may not have access to a computer or the internet, or be able to use one, for whatever reason. Charging significant increased fares for any kind of ticket you can buy at the station, whithout a smartphone, will not go down well. Many can use a computer but not a phone, so this would discriminate against on that basis, especially for tickets bought on that day.

 

[JonathanH]

Equality Impact Assessments also have to think about age though.

Isn't that covered by the Freedom Pass? When making considerations about fares in London, I'm pretty sure that only Londoners need to be considered.

 

[Benjwri]

Isn't that covered by the Freedom Pass? When making considerations about fares in London, I'm pretty sure that only Londoners need to be considered.

Was talking about a theoretical increase of paper ticket prices as compared to e-tickets on a countrywide basis that was theorised as a future option.

 

[Haywain]

Was talking about a theoretical increase of paper ticket prices as compared to e-tickets on a countrywide basis that was theorised as a future option.

But that belongs elsewhere, as this thread is about "Ridiculous" fares in London.