Rights and wrongs of discretion on an advance ticket

[pompeyfan]

I saw a tweet conversation recently where a passenger had purchased an advance single ticket from somewhere like Kettering to Cranbrook Devon. The ticket and itinerary had been sold by Trainline before the current Covid timetable had been released. The journey itinerary had since been changed with the passenger being told to wait for 3 hours until after midnight at Yeovil Junction for a replacement bus.
The ticket holder claims they asked a member of staff (unknown if this was a guard or station staff, agency staff etc) if they could travel on a train closer to 2200 to either Feniton or Pinhoe but was refused because their advance ticket was only to Cranbrook and this put them in breech of T&Cs.

 

[185]

Where (any) operator has decided/chosen/been-made-to implement a temporary timetable, I reckon the basics of common sense should apply for journeys booked and confirmed prior to that change. Putting a bus on at 1am doesn't replace a cancelled/deleted service three hours earlier, and the operator should allow flexibility, especially given Pinhoe is a shorter journey... (**and assuming that person was right to be making a journey on that day during the recent travel restrictions.)

 

[yorkie]

I saw a tweet conversation recently where a passenger had purchased an advance single ticket from somewhere like Kettering to Cranbrook Devon. The ticket and itinerary had been sold by Trainline before the current Covid timetable had been released. The journey itinerary had since been changed with the passenger being told to wait for 3 hours until after midnight at Yeovil Junction for a replacement bus.
The ticket holder claims they asked a member of staff (unknown if this was a guard or station staff, agency staff etc) if they could travel on a train closer to 2200 to either Feniton or Pinhoe but was refused because their advance ticket was only to Cranbrook and this put them in breech of T&Cs.

What was the original itinerary?

The original contractual terms do still apply; the customer has a choice between travelling on the first available services at/after the booked departure time (and claiming Delay Repay against the original itinerary if this results in a delay) or travelling earlier in order to arrive close to the contracted time.

There is insufficient information to understand exactly what happened in this case, but I am aware of several examples where a train company has breached contract and consumer laws in this area. This is due to insufficient training provided to staff, and insufficient safeguards in place.

 

[pompeyfan]

The original itinerary put them on a direct service from Waterloo to Cranbrook, departing at approximately 1920, however the nearest departure after COVID timetable was released got them as far as Yeovil Junction, where they were then told they’d have to wait from approximately 2200 until approximately 0030, rather than joining a train around 2200 to the stations either side of Cranbrook. I appreciate T&Cs still apply, even if enforcement at the moment is quite rare, but this doesn’t seem particularly well handled.

 

[Kilopylae]

It seems particularly pedantic given that Pinhoe and Whimple stations are only about an hour's and an hour and a quarter's walk respectively from Cranbrook station (and significantly less to some areas of Cranbrook village). It's not as though the customer was hoping to travel a great distance long or short by boarding the 22.00 train

 

[Starmill]

The original itinerary put them on a direct service from Waterloo to Cranbrook, departing at approximately 1920, however the nearest departure after COVID timetable was released got them as far as Yeovil Junction, where they were then told they’d have to wait from approximately 2200 until approximately 0030, rather than joining a train around 2200 to the stations either side of Cranbrook. I appreciate T&Cs still apply, even if enforcement at the moment is quite rare, but this doesn’t seem particularly well handled.

If SWR were unwilling to agree to permit the ticket holder to travel to a different destination, through belligerence, and the traveller was unable to depart any sooner in order to minimise delay to their journey, and SWR offered the option of road transport, albeit with a very unreasonably long wait late at night at an unhelpful location for waiting, the traveller's only option would be to refund the ticket if they don't like it.

Of course, they'd be entitled to delay repay if they did travel.

Why am I not surprised that SWR would decide to deliberately make an essential journey more difficult than it needed to be? If it were me, given we are in a crisis, I would be tempted to ignore the instructions, just board the train and travel to the stop short of Cranbrook, and risk getting into a dispute with the company. If I were threatened with a charge I would pay and then complain.

 

[Belperpete]

It seems particularly pedantic given that Pinhoe and Whimple stations are only about an hour's and an hour and a quarter's walk respectively from Cranbrook station (and significantly less to some areas of Cranbrook village). It's not as though the customer was hoping to travel a great distance long or short by boarding the 22.00 train

Agreed, I would have seriously considered buying a new ticket from Yeovil to Pinhoe in order to travel on the 2200 train, and raising a customer complaint. I would certainly raise a customer complaint if whoever they asked didn't suggest this as a possible course of action.

 

[ValleyLines142]

I find Advances are really hit and miss. They are a great option for those who need no flexibility and are guaranteed to be able to catch that train. But I think there should be some leniency when disruption occurs.

Back in January I had a First Class Advance from Birmingham to Manchester, on the 19:57 departure. There were signalling problems at Oxford and XC services were delayed by about 45 minutes. I just so happened to have been at New Street quite early (by just after 7pm), and I tweeted XC to ask if I could travel on the delayed 18:57 instead (which was about half an hour late by this point). They refused as I had an Advance ticket, and said that I could only travel on another train if my original was completely cancelled. Whilst the 19:57 was only eight minutes late at this point, I knew it would get later, and as it happened it ended up arriving into Birmingham nearly an hour late, and I got to Manchester at 22:20 instead of 21:30. Jokes on XC though, as I filed for delay repay (when if they had just allowed me to travel on the service before I wouldn't have needed to!).

I also feel that if there is disruption then Advance ticket holders should be permitted to travel on another route. On a journey from Cardiff to Brighton once, there was an issue involving GWR at Swansea, and both my booked train from Cardiff and the service before were heavily delayed. I was due to travel via Reading and Gatwick, a route I don't particularly like at the best of times (connections on the North Downs are incredibly tight). I noticed my booked train was getting later and later, and was at risk of missing my connection at Reading, so when the first London train pulled in, I asked the train manager if I could travel straight to Paddington, go across to Victoria and catch the same train as I would have from Gatwick to Brighton just from Victoria instead, and was firmly told no. I had to wait for my original train from Cardiff, which left 35 minutes late, missed my connecting train from Reading by 5 minutes and ended up in Brighton nearly an hour late. Again, filed for delay repay but wouldn't have had to if the train manager allowed me to travel on the previous service, so he'd shot himself in the foot there.

Anyway, I feel I'm turning this thread into my own woes and am digressing from the original case, but I do think it's a little silly being expected to wait for such a ridiculously long time. Especially at that time of the night where there are no decent facilities or anything open!

 

[Realfish]

Anyway, I feel I'm turning this thread into my own woes and am digressing...

Not really, your examples and those seen by the OP do the railway no favours at all. The Rail Delivery Group should take a keen interest and build some / ensure some safeguards for passengers in these situations, including some reciprocity where different TOC's might come to the aid of stranded and delayed passengers (I always thought that there was - perhaps, once again, it is a training issue). There shouldn't be a free for all, where passengers who fancy an early ride can try it on, but in this day and age there must be a way of systems validating, for onboard staff, that there is an issue somewhere; real-time information perhaps accessed via a QR code embedded in a ticket.

Thankfully, I have had better experiences. A WCML problem at Rugby meant my LM train from Lichfield to Euston had been cancelled and I was instead directed to B'ham and then on to Marylebone via Chiltern. By the time I got to Brum, the problem had cleared and services were running again. The LM service I would need to catch from Brum would have taken an eternity and I would have missed an important appointment. Virgin had no obligation to help me out, but a word at New Street saw a friendly supervisor endorse my ticket and I got to London in time.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Not really, your examples and those seen by the OP do the railway no favours at all. The Rail Delivery Group should take a keen interest and build some / ensure some safeguards for passengers in these situations, including some reciprocity where different TOC's might come to the aid of stranded and delayed passengers (I always thought that there was - perhaps, once again, it is a training issue). There shouldn't be a free for all, where passengers who fancy an early ride can try it on, but in this day and age there must be a way of systems validating, for onboard staff, that there is an issue somewhere; real-time information perhaps accessed via a QR code embedded in a ticket.

Thankfully, I have had better experiences. A WCML problem at Rugby meant my LM train from Lichfield to Euston had been cancelled and I was instead directed to B'ham and then on to Marylebone via Chiltern. By the time I got to Brum, the problem had cleared and services were running again. The LM service I would need to catch from Brum would have taken an eternity and I would have missed an important appointment. Virgin had no obligation to help me out, but a word at New Street saw a friendly supervisor endorse my ticket and I got to London in time.

I know, hence why I said I'm digressing. The point still stands however.