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Rishi Sunak and the Conservative Party.

brad465

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At any rate what we know so far is utterly weird ... locked in a room, had to pay a ransom, but apparently didn't go to the police about it??? Methinks there's a lot more to come out of this story.
Given that he had the whip suspended almost as soon as the story first broke, you're probably right there's more to this than is currently known, especially considering how slow the whip was removed for others like Wragg (who ended up giving it up himself).
 
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edwin_m

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I guess it depends if the money used was donated in good faith on the basis that it would be used for campaigning. I'm not sure of the details of the law but that would sound to me close to fraud (and reminiscent of a certain Scottish campervan) if it was used for other purposes.

At any rate what we know so far is utterly weird ... locked in a room, had to pay a ransom, but apparently didn't go to the police about it??? Methinks there's a lot more to come out of this story.
Sounds a bit like a certain individual who allegedly used campaign funds to pay off an adult film star.
 

Halwynd

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I would have thought it would have been a police matter by now, but perhaps because it's Conservative party money rather than expenses they are able to let it ride.

If what is alleged is true, it certainly ought to be a police matter now.

I recall watching this MP interviewed on a local news programme just after he was first elected, and the only reason I remember his name is because he came across as one of the most smarmy and arrogant politicians I have ever listened to... so I did raise a slight smile when I read about his hoisting today.
 

Typhoon

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What is it with the selection process in the North West? Benton gone, Wragg and Menzies not taking the whip, others accused of being part-time, uncontactable, 'generous' with their expenses claims, borderline offensive behaviour in public, or unsympathetic to the plight of others.
 

Enthusiast

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I would assume the reason SNCF could have action brought against it would be that it's a nationalized company.
The action against SNCF was a claim in a local court in South-West France. The family of a Polish Jew had claimed damages against SNCF as he had been transported by one of their trains to an internment camp in Nazi-occupied France. The local court ruled than SNCF was liable. The successful appeal was heard in the French divisional court which found against the claimant but not on the basis that SNCF had been coerced. It made its decision on the basis that the lower court was not competent to rule on the legal liability of the SNCF. The family pledged to appeal the decision (it was in fact a test case for a large number of potential claimants) but I can find no reports of such an appeal. However, in 2015, the French government agreed to pay $60m to the USA as compensation for (mainly) American victims of the holocaust whom SNCF had transported to internment camps. In return, "...the United States will ensure an enduring legal peace for France with regard to Holocaust deportation claims in the United States,” alluding to lawsuits brought in the US against the French state rail company SNCF. Here's an article explaining that and more:


It may be worth noting that surrounding this decision was the fact that the SNCF was facing legal action which threatened some of its commercial contracts in the USA.

These details are interesting in the context the matter was raised in relation to the Rwanda plan:

There's also precedent for transportation providers being tried in civil court for breaches of human rights (cf. a judgement against SNCF for transporting Jews to the concentration camps - though that was overturned on appeal since it was shown that they had acted under compulsion).

There is no mention in the French case of Human Rights abuses. As mentioned above, individuals or companies cannot face court action for such breaches. It was simply a civil claim against a commercial company. Furthermore, there was never any suggestion that individual officers of the SNCF would be held responsible for any wrongdoing that was found to have taken place (which may have been difficult anyway since the case was heard in 2003, some sixty years after event). In short, to attempt to cite as a precedent any removals that might happen under the Rwanda plan and events that took place courtesy of the Nazi regime during WW2 is a bit of a stretch.
 

brad465

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What is it with the selection process in the North West? Benton gone, Wragg and Menzies not taking the whip, others accused of being part-time, uncontactable, 'generous' with their expenses claims, borderline offensive behaviour in public, or unsympathetic to the plight of others.
You could ask that of the selection process generally, given some of those still in job despite clearly not being fit for it irrespective of where in the country they sit.
 

Typhoon

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You could ask that of the selection process generally, given some of those still in job despite clearly not being fit for it irrespective of where in the country they sit.
Possibly. I can't speak for the south west* but those Kent MPs where there are or have been issues (with the exception of Mr Elphicke) it is because they are ineffective or motormouths rather than anything else.

* - I've remembered the absentee MP for Torridge, and the former MP for Somerton and Frome, maybe you have a point.
 

nw1

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You could ask that of the selection process generally, given some of those still in job despite clearly not being fit for it irrespective of where in the country they sit.

I've always considered Essex as something of a hotspot for dodgy MPs. Again just coincidence and I suspect they are spread throughout the country.
 

brad465

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I've always considered Essex as something of a hotspot for dodgy MPs. Again just coincidence and I suspect they are spread throughout the country.
Anywhere that's a safe seat(s) is higher risk I think, as MPs there take being elected for granted and can be complacent after a while. Swing seats, while not immune, the MP has to deliver much more to remain in office.
 

nw1

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I'm sure Greater Manchester Police will be able to spare 12 detectives to investigate.

Definitely. ;)

Anywhere that's a safe seat(s) is higher risk I think, as MPs there take being elected for granted and can be complacent after a while. Swing seats, while not immune, the MP has to deliver much more to remain in office.

Could well be. Menzies seems to be MP for the type of location which would elect a donkey were it to wear a blue rosette.

On the other hand, some controversial (as opposed to being accused of alleged wrongdoing) MPs with strident views do seem to represent very marginal constituencies. Mr Gullis, for example.
 

edwin_m

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On the other hand, some controversial (as opposed to being accused of alleged wrongdoing) MPs with strident views do seem to represent very marginal constituencies. Mr Gullis, for example.
I guess jumping up and down and making a lot of noise is one way of convincing your voters you're doing something.
 

nr758123

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On the other hand, some controversial (as opposed to being accused of alleged wrongdoing) MPs with strident views do seem to represent very marginal constituencies. Mr Gullis, for example.
Mr Gullis only became notorious/strident/opinionated/"telling it how it is" (delete according to your opinion about him) after he was elected.
 

nw1

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I see Sunak is attacking what he calls "sick note culture" now, including removing the right to get a sick note from a GP:


Attracting quite a bit of criticism from mental health professionals. To me, it does seem to denigrate people who may well have genuine long-term health, including mental health, problems.

He seems to tick every right-wing-cliche box. Anti-immigration? Check. Anti-woke? Check. Environmentalist sceptic? Check. Pro-austerity? Check. Pro-Brexit? Check. Anti pro-Palestine demonstrations? Check. And now he's using the tired old Tory "workshy" cliche. Such is the predictability of his position on just about everything, you could probably replace him with a computer program. ;)

It seems patently obvious that he is only interested in attracting potential Reform voters and not interested in the centre - and as a result is second only to Truss as most right-wing post-war British PM. And I do get the impression that he has a distinct lack of empathy for certain people in society, perhaps due to his extremely privileged background, both financially and socially.
 
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dangie

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I see Sunak is attacking what he calls "sick note culture" now, including removing the right to get a sick note from a GP…
This is a very contentious issue as of course there are many who due to one reason or another do have genuine long term health or mental problems.

On the other hand there are also others who ‘milk the system’ for all it’s worth. Differentiating between the two has always been the difficult thing.
 

nw1

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This is a very contentious issue as of course there are many who due to one reason or another do have genuine long term health or mental problems.

On the other hand there are also others who ‘milk the system’ for all it’s worth. Differentiating between the two has always been the difficult thing.

I think you have to give the benefit of the doubt as it would be very, very wrong to make life more difficult for people with genuine illness. If that means some people get away with "faking it", so be it.

Plus, if I am quite honest, I don't think people like Sunak understand mental health issues enough. He was basically born with a silver spoon in his mouth in more ways than one - not just financial. So it's easy for him to pontificate.

And if he thinks not enough people are working - how about, erm, making it easier for immigrants to settle here if they are willing to work? Better that, than assuming that people with long-term health problems are scroungers by default, as he seems to be doing.
 
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edwin_m

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I have to say a lot of the reasons for poor mental health probably arise from the actions of the post-2010 government...
 

SteveM70

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I see Sunak is attacking what he calls "sick note culture" now

What a vile speech.

Two quotes from it:

"I will never dismiss or downplay the illnesses people have."

Less than a minute later: ""over-medicalising the everyday challenges and worries of life".
 

birchesgreen

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Well kicking migrants isn't working for them, they are giving sick people a kicking again to see if it gains them popularity with the right wing voters.
 

bleeder4

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There does seem to be a trend in recent years in attaching a label to every possible type of human behaviour. We're all different - what's abnormal for one person might be perfectly normal for another person. No need to differentiate the two people by giving one of them a label. I dated a mental health nurse for a short period but the relationship ended as she kept saying that two particular quirks/habits I had meant that I was autistic and I needed to go and get a diagnosis. After one row too many about it we had to call it a day.
 

Bantamzen

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I see Sunak is attacking what he calls "sick note culture" now, including removing the right to get a sick note from a GP:


Attracting quite a bit of criticism from mental health professionals. To me, it does seem to denigrate people who may well have genuine long-term health, including mental health, problems.

He seems to tick every right-wing-cliche box. Anti-immigration? Check. Anti-woke? Check. Environmentalist sceptic? Check. Pro-austerity? Check. Pro-Brexit? Check. Anti pro-Palestine demonstrations? Check. And now he's using the tired old Tory "workshy" cliche. Such is the predictability of his position on just about everything, you could probably replace him with a computer program. ;)

It seems patently obvious that he is only interested in attracting potential Reform voters and not interested in the centre - and as a result is second only to Truss as most right-wing post-war British PM. And I do get the impression that he has a distinct lack of empathy for certain people in society, perhaps due to his extremely privileged background, both financially and socially.
Yikes, these plans are really going cause issues! o_O

This is a very contentious issue as of course there are many who due to one reason or another do have genuine long term health or mental problems.

On the other hand there are also others who ‘milk the system’ for all it’s worth. Differentiating between the two has always been the difficult thing.
A lot harder than most people think.
 

dangie

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From the BBC. He is quoted as saying.

He said "work is good for people"

Maybe not a good choice of words. Sounds much like Arbeit macht frei (Work Sets You Free) above the gates at Auschwitz. I’m sure any similarity was certainly not meant, but all the same in hindsight a little thoughtless.
 

Bantamzen

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From the BBC. He is quoted as saying.

He said "work is good for people"

Maybe not a good choice of words. Sounds much like Arbeit macht frei (Work Sets You Free) above the gates at Auschwitz. I’m sure any similarity was certainly not meant, but all the same in hindsight a little thoughtless.
I thought exactly the same.
 

SteveM70

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I don't understand why they don't just try and pass a law declaring that everyone in the country is fit for work :lol: ;)
 

ainsworth74

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I see Sunak is attacking what he calls "sick note culture" now, including removing the right to get a sick note from a GP:


Attracting quite a bit of criticism from mental health professionals. To me, it does seem to denigrate people who may well have genuine long-term health, including mental health, problems.

He seems to tick every right-wing-cliche box. Anti-immigration? Check. Anti-woke? Check. Environmentalist sceptic? Check. Pro-austerity? Check. Pro-Brexit? Check. Anti pro-Palestine demonstrations? Check. And now he's using the tired old Tory "workshy" cliche. Such is the predictability of his position on just about everything, you could probably replace him with a computer program. ;)

It seems patently obvious that he is only interested in attracting potential Reform voters and not interested in the centre - and as a result is second only to Truss as most right-wing post-war British PM. And I do get the impression that he has a distinct lack of empathy for certain people in society, perhaps due to his extremely privileged background, both financially and socially.

Well, fixing the actual problem would be difficult and expensive and very hard to do in the time remaining before the election. Because the actual problem is the continuing slow motion collapse of the NHS meaning that people are unable to access treatment for their physical and mental health issues promptly which means that minor issues which someone could endure whilst waiting a few weeks or a month or two for treatment are deteriorating to the point that they cannot carry on in employment or are moving further away from re-entering the workforce. These people then linger outside of the work force for longer continuing to wait for treatment for their ailments.

That's the real problem that has caused the sudden upsurge in the number of people needing sick notes who then go on to access benefits on the basis of being not fit for work.

But its far easier to just say that it's the "work shy" and the development of a "fit note culture" to blame then accept that Government decisions are at the root of this problem and it will take time and money to fix the problem. Instead lets go for the quick win and brutalise a group that's already often marginalised and get the favourable headlines from tame media outlets. We'll worry about what happens when the new scheme doesn't work and causes real harm to those caught up in it's gears later.

They come so close to spotting the problem even. Quoting that article from the BBC:

It also said a large proportion of these were repeat fit notes issued without any advice.

I wonder why they're not giving any advice on the fit notes? Is that GPs have suddenly all decided that they'll just issue fit notes willy nilly? Perhaps for some yes that might apply as it gets that patient squared away quickly (itself a symptom of mismanagement of the health service of course). But for most GPs the reason they will be issuing repeat fit notes with no advice is because for a lot of the people getting the fit notes what the advice will be is "await treatment for your medical condition and in the meantime muddle through as best you can".
 

uglymonkey

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They might like to go down the route of PIP and have an " assessment" before a sick note. "Get back to work, you are not "sick" enough - a lot of people get turned down ( which is overturned on appeal) as they seem to be "gatekeepers" with the sole intention of putting disabled and long term sick people though countless Hoops and stress as possible to gain access to support which they should have had in the first place - to save money.
 

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