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Rishi Sunak and the Conservative Party.

DarloRich

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It looks like the Tories may have a positive this week. I think Houchen will win the Tees Valley mayoral election

There is honestly no hope for this country. All that nonsense over his teesport deal ( which stinks) and the hard of thinking still vote for him because airport

Sigh.

Perhaps @ainsworth74 can add more!
 
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The Ham

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https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/insight-and-analysis/data-and-charts/key-facts-figures-nhs has a chart showing there are more doctors and nurses in hospitals in the NHS in England since the Conservatives gained power in 2010, yet I think the consensus here would be that the NHS has gone downhill.

There's other factors which come into play (see below).

The number of over 65s in England and Wales increased from 9.2 million in 2011 to 11.1 million in 2022, while the population of England alone increased from c52.6 million to c56.5 million between 2010 and 2021, just quoting easy-to-find official statistics, so the consensus here would seem to be soundly based on fact and experience rather than briefings from Conservative Central Office or its puppets in the Dailys Mail and Telegraph.

Quite, the population of England has increased by 7.4%, which erodes the increase.

Add to that the 20% increase in those over 65 (who are now likely to need healthcare).

Combined that's likely to have resulted in a much closer overall impact than the number of digits/nurses would imply. It could even, especially given that a lot of the growth in the over 65 population is likely to be an increase in the over 75 population (where there's even more demand), mean that the demands of the staff are more than offset by the increases.

With many things, small increases in demand can have a significant negative impact. If something is running at 99% capacity (i.e. maybe small waits for something) and there's a 2% increase to 101% demand vs capacity that means that over time the wait times increase.

99 people use something with 100 places, there maybe small delays as the capacity is eroded marginal due to staff absences, however make that 101, now there's say 3 people who need to wait to the next year, next year the wait is 6, the year after an extra person needs care and the number waiting until the next year is 10. It doesn't take long for there to be 3 months of backlog carried over to the next year.

Only we were staying at 3 months and after a decade were could be closer to a whole year.
 

brad465

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It looks like the Tories may have a positive this week. I think Houchen will win the Tees Valley mayoral election

There is honestly no hope for this country. All that nonsense over his teesport deal ( which stinks) and the hard of thinking still vote for him because airport

Sigh.

Perhaps @ainsworth74 can add more!
The Mayors in question have largely distanced themselves from the wider party as they know the brand is toxic. Houchen is still expected to lose over 20 points in vote share, but as he did so well last time he has a lot of cushion.
 

DarloRich

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Houchen is still expected to lose over 20 points in vote share, but as he did so well last time he has a lot of cushion.
I haven't looked at the polls but the social media is off. I simply do not understand how people can vote for him. The lack of thinking is incredible. In the olden days the stink around teesport would have had him out. Now people seem to want more of it. I don't get it.

I also think the Tories might, just, hang on to the west midlands mayoralty
 

SteveM70

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The Mayors in question have largely distanced themselves from the wider party as they know the brand is toxic. Houchen is still expected to lose over 20 points in vote share, but as he did so well last time he has a lot of cushion.

Every single bit of Houchen’s advertising that I’ve seen contains only his name; the word Conservative hasn’t appeared at all
 

DarloRich

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Every single bit of Houchen’s advertising that I’ve seen contains only his name; the word Conservative hasn’t appeared at all
He even said he doesn't follow any part whip despite voting for Tory policy 19 times in the lords, where he sits as a ( checks notes) Tory peer!

The lack of critical thinking in much of the population is a massive worry.
 

birchesgreen

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Andy Street hasn't been especially bad as mayor. Mostly quite dull and consensus oriented, which isn't a bad way to be.
Well he is good at promising things which have yet to happen. He is also good at claiming credit for stuff even if he had no or little real input in it, but also seems strangely hard to find when things go wrong. He is also very bad at engaging with his electorate, he is happy to tell people about all the great things he is apparently doing but doesn't seem to want to listen to us. He does seem a decent man though and isn't poisoned by ideology like some of his Tory colleagues.

So basically yes he hasn't been bad as mayor but he hasn't been good either. Personally i think its time for a change.
 

ainsworth74

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It looks like the Tories may have a positive this week. I think Houchen will win the Tees Valley mayoral election

There is honestly no hope for this country. All that nonsense over his teesport deal ( which stinks) and the hard of thinking still vote for him because airport

Sigh.

Perhaps @ainsworth74 can add more!

Not really anything to add, I suspect you're right though. I think it'll be close but he'll get over the line fairly comfortably in the end. Personally I'm bracing myself for the reality that Labour and the Lib Dems will notch up more than 50% between them but because they'll split the vote Houchen will come through the middle. Just as the anti-democratic reform of reverting to a FPTP for Mayoral elections was intended to achieve.

As for why? Well I think it's less that people are thick and more that Labour haven't run an particularly strong campaign. They appear to have run the same story that is being run nationally (i.e. Tory chaos) rather than focussing in on the local issues, particularly those around Teesworks and the apparently enrichment of two local businessmen and their families for little to no risk/investment on their part. There's plenty of meat to target Houchen over to persuade people that he's not a good candidate but that appears to be being ignored by a centrally run campaign. No criticism of local activists is intended to be clear(!) who I'm sure have been putting in the hard yards but I do think that whoever is directing the campaign has done them (and us) a disservice.

That being said if there is one silver lining I suppose it would be that if Labour win the upcoming General Election hopefully they'll be able to launch a full inquiry into all the dodgy dealings up here and they will be doing so whilst Houchen is still in office rather than after he's swanned off to just getting his day rate in the Lords.
 

DarloRich

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Andy Street hasn't been especially bad as mayor. Mostly quite dull and consensus oriented, which isn't a bad way to be.
TBH Street, if he wasn't a Tory, might well get my vote. He speaks well and sensibly when interviewed and seems to be honest and trying to do a good job. Shame he is a Tory..........
Labour and the Lib Dems will notch up more than 50% between them but because they'll split the vote Houchen will come through the middle
Agreed - the Lib Dems will see Houchen home.

As for why? Well I think it's less that people are thick and more that Labour haven't run an particularly strong campaign. They appear to have run the same story that is being run nationally (i.e. Tory chaos) rather than focussing in on the local issues, particularly those around Teesworks and the apparently enrichment of two local businessmen and their families for little to no risk/investment on their part. There's plenty of meat to target Houchen over to persuade people that he's not a good candidate but that appears to be being ignored by a centrally run campaign. No criticism of local activists is intended to be clear(!) who I'm sure have been putting in the hard yards but I do think that whoever is directing the campaign has done them (and us) a disservice.
I do think may people lack the willingness to think or even to see what is going on. I think that to do so means the whole thing unravels meaning you have to admit that your whole belief structure is, in fact, rotten! It is easier to swallow the "alternative facts" and pretend that things are going well and witter on about flights to Faro. Although some/most days I just think people are thick!

That said I agree on the campaign. I don't get how Labour haven't stuck the boot in. The whole thing is a personality cult so you have to attack the personality. It is an open goal ffs. The Tessport deal stinks. The Airport deal stinks. Private Eye and the Yorkshire Post have done the work for you! Just steal it and pump it out.

( it doesn't help Houchen has the Echo and Gazette "captive" - odd how the Echo put the anti Houchen news about Steve Gibson behind a paywall yet put every press release from Houchen free to air!)
 

nw1

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I find it staggering that Teesside, a traditionally Labour area, would vote for a Tory even after all that has happened in the past 5 years.

Is it a sign that the area is still leaning rightwards, and might be an area where the Tories do disproportionately well in the coming general election compared to other parts of the north?
 

takno

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Well he is good at promising things which have yet to happen. He is also good at claiming credit for stuff even if he had no or little real input in it, but also seems strangely hard to find when things go wrong. He is also very bad at engaging with his electorate, he is happy to tell people about all the great things he is apparently doing but doesn't seem to want to listen to us. He does seem a decent man though and isn't poisoned by ideology like some of his Tory colleagues.

So basically yes he hasn't been bad as mayor but he hasn't been good either. Personally i think its time for a change.
I don't disagree, and if I'm feeling cynical I'd say that anything he has achieved has been because the colour of his rosette matches the government's. If that's the case then it's probably worth switching mayor to match the likely next government
 

D6130

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I find it staggering that Teesside, a traditionally Labour area, would vote for a Tory even after all that has happened in the past 5 years.

Is it a sign that the area is still leaning rightwards, and might be an area where the Tories do disproportionately well in the coming general election compared to other parts of the north?
Houchen is mayor of 'Tees Valley' rather than just the traditionally (formerly) industrial area of Teesside. His area includes some fairly rich farming areas and well-to-do market/commuter towns. For example the formerly-industrial town of Darlington - once famous for its railway, engineering and bridge-building workshops - was and still is a historic market town and, after a period in the economic doldrums, is now rapidly becoming a commuter centre for Teesside, Newcastle, York and even London....given its excellent fast rail connections.
 

takno

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is now rapidly becoming a commuter centre for Teesside, Newcastle, York and even London....given its excellent fast rail connections.
Don't forget the incredibly useful airport. Why would anybody spend 2 and a half hours on the train when they could spend just twice that wondering around muddy fields looking for a glorified portacabin with a daily flight there?
 

ainsworth74

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I do think may people lack the willingness to think or even to see what is going on. I think that to do so means the whole thing unravels meaning you have to admit that your whole belief structure is, in fact, rotten! It is easier to swallow the "alternative facts" and pretend that things are going well and witter on about flights to Faro. Although some/most days I just think people are thick!
I think there's probably an element of that going on but at the same time it's not the easiest story to unpick and understand exactly what's going on. I read Private Eye religiously and still don't fully understand all the nuances of what's going on! How someone who isn't as politically switched on is supposed to understand the issues is beyond me. Whereas understanding that there are more flights to the airport, you can fly to Faro or Alicante direct, there's signs of progress at the steelworks is an easier thing to grasp even if it's all mired in dodgy dealings and could well represent poor value for money.

Even the duo of Campbell and Stewart I seem to recall fudged their explanation of the issues when they covered it a couple of months ago on their podcast and they're amongst the most politically switched on of anyone!
( it doesn't help Houchen has the Echo and Gazette "captive" - odd how the Echo put the anti Houchen news about Steve Gibson behind a paywall yet put every press release from Houchen free to air!)
Yes the Gazette at least published Gibson's attack without a paywall a few days later but you still had to navigate all the ads to see it! However it is disappointing that the local papers appear to be some degree of captive. I'm not sure it's malicious particularly, just a symptom of the death of local journalism generally meaning that all they really have the capacity to do these days is pump out press releases from whoever sends them without ever really doing any actual journalism by asking questions.
Is it a sign that the area is still leaning rightwards, and might be an area where the Tories do disproportionately well in the coming general election compared to other parts of the north?
Maybe?

I think the Tees Valley has been on quite an interesting journey politically. In 2019 (the big bang, with Houchen in 2017 being the warning sign that went unnoticed) I think it was a sign that the area was fed up with Labour, rightly or wrongly, so voted for change in the form of Tories (still miraculous how they painted themselves as the change candidates in 2019 after nine years in power) as well as it being a vote in favour of Boris who, no matter how odious many of us found him, did have quite high personal popularity. It was also a reaction to the toxicity of Corbyn. It is sometimes forgotten (or never realised) just how deeply unpopular he was personally in this area. Houchen winning in 2021 was on the back of the vaccine rollout, Boris still being comparatively popular (this was pre-Partygate recall), the rebuilding job of Labour still being a work in progress (this is the same election where Hartlepool went Tory in a by-election) and the Labour Mayoral candidate being, I'm sure lovely, but making zero impact at all in their campaign.

Now in 2024, personally, I suspect a lot of the MPs are toast (hopefully not just me projecting). I do think there's a general groundswell, as there is in many places, of general being fed up with them which will, probably, translate into Labour votes. But as me and @DarloRich have noted Houchen himself has managed to tie himself to something which are perceived positively even if, you dig a bit deeper, they're mired in potential scandal. I think he is also quite popular because he is seen, rightly or wrongly, as standing up for the area and talking a positive story about Teesside. That will probably be enough to see him over the line (even if he doesn't win a majority of the votes). If we still had a proper electoral system being used where second preferences were counted I'd be much more confident that he would be toast.

I think the other thing that's interesting, and potentially having an impact, is that Teesside feels like one of the few areas (and perhaps others will be able to opine on whether my sense on this is right) which has actually done well out of "Levelling Up". There are actually signs of money being spent (not enough, and not cleanly) but shovels are impacting the ground. It feels as if that's quite unusual nationally? It seems like we're having money thrown at us in way that other areas are not. See, for instance, the new return service to London with LNER from Middlesbrough, the signs of works at Middlesbrough and Darlington stations. With more funding promised with £1bn being announced in January 2024 for more transport projects.

I'm not sure that the area is particularly right wing compared to anywhere else. Socially perhaps more conservative than the leafy suburbs of London but economically I don't think there's any sign that we're suddenly buccaneering free marketeers desperate for a small government and limited state interference.

So, if I had to predict it, my prediction would be that Houchen wins a narrow victory on the back of a split vote but in the General Election the Tees Valley will return a majority of Labour MPs with most Tories unseated. Houchen has some local popularity, but I don't think that means that the Tories themselves have a wellspring of popularity.
 

DarloRich

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I find it staggering that Teesside, a traditionally Labour area, would vote for a Tory even after all that has happened in the past 5 years.

Is it a sign that the area is still leaning rightwards, and might be an area where the Tories do disproportionately well in the coming general election compared to other parts of the north?
It is all part of the "Red wall" changes brought about by Brexit lies and years of Daily Mail headlines and bloody Corbyn. Look at the MP's for the area. This will be Houchens third term if/when he wins
Houchen is mayor of 'Tees Valley' rather than just the traditionally (formerly) industrial area of Teesside. His area includes some fairly rich farming areas and well-to-do market/commuter towns. For example the formerly-industrial town of Darlington - once famous for its railway, engineering and bridge-building workshops - was and still is a historic market town and, after a period in the economic doldrums, is now rapidly becoming a commuter centre for Teesside, Newcastle, York and even London....given its excellent fast rail connections.
This is an inaccurate definition of why Houchen wins or of his area. He isn't winning on the back of "rich farming areas" or "well to do market/commuter towns". There aren't many of those. He is winning because old labour voters in places like Hartlepool and Redcar bought into what he and Johnson were selling and keep voting for him. That is despite or perhaps because of all of the controversy around the deals at Teesport.

Houchen has then used that to get a few crumbs thrown his way like the treasury admin moved to Darlo and (apparently) the station rebuilt. He also uses the 3 flights a week to the airport as a touchstone. He then hammers this hard on social media and in his captive local media outlets and people lap it up.

Also you see a different Darlington to me!

I read Private Eye religiously and still don't fully understand all the nuances of what's going on!
I agree it is very complicated and the local media not challenging Houchen enough make it harder still.However, pictures of the youngish son of one of the Teesworks beneficiaries collecting his fancy Rolls Royce should be enough to hammer home the point that the deal stinks even if you don't get the nuances.

Just keep hammering how Houchen spent millions cleaning the site up to hand to his chums for pennies and how we have yet to see anything back from them.

Just keep showing the completely redacted documents received from FOI requests and say: What has he got to hide?

Just clip up and show that interview from Victoria Derbyshire over and over and say: he doesn't even know his own lines. What's he hiding?

Keep out of the detail and use the big items over and over again. I would also set up fact checking social media accounts and comment on every post pointing out when he has been less than accurate. I don't get the lacklustre Labour campaign. Perhaps they don't want to make it personal but the mayoralty has been and is about one man. You have to attack that.

I'm not sure it's malicious particularly, just a symptom of the death of local journalism generally meaning that all they really have the capacity to do these days is pump out press releases from whoever sends them without ever really doing any actual journalism by asking questions.
I agree but he is using that to his benefit. Why aren't Labour?
So, if I had to predict it, my prediction would be that Houchen wins a narrow victory on the back of a split vote but in the General Election the Tees Valley will return a majority of Labour MPs with most Tories unseated. Houchen has some local popularity, but I don't think that means that the Tories themselves have a wellspring of popularity.
Agreed.
 
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ainsworth74

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Don't forget the incredibly useful airport. Why would anybody spend 2 and a half hours on the train when they could spend just twice that wondering around muddy fields looking for a glorified portacabin with a daily flight there?
Okay, I'm perhaps one of the most vocal critics of the airport and even I wouldn't describe it as glorified portacabin, by all accounts the terminal building itself is quite nice having been recently refurbished :lol:

Should still be closed down though ;)

Houchen has then used that to get a few crumbs thrown his way like the treasury admin moved to Darlo and (apparently) the station rebuilt.
To be fair there's no apparent to the station rebuilding's at Darlington or Boro, they're definitely happening as we speak. The new platforms and railway infrastructure at Boro is in flux but the revamped station entrance and internal layout is well on its way to completion whilst Darlington station is currently half a building site with a massive new structure going up on the old car park.
I agree it is very complicated and the local media not challenging Houchen enough make it harder still.

However, pictures of the youngish son of one of the Teesworks beneficiaries collecting his fancy Rolls Royce should be enough to hammer home the point that the deal stinks even if you don't get the nuances.

Just keep hammering how Houchen spent millions cleaning the site up to hand to his chums for pennies and how we have yet to see anything back from them.

Just keep showing the completely redacted documents received from FOI requests and say: What has he got to hide?

Just clip up and show that interview from Victoria Derbyshire over and over and say: he doesn't even know his own lines. What's he hiding?

Keep out of the detail and use the big items over and over again. I would also set up fact checking social media accounts and comment on every post pointing out when he has been less than accurate.

I don't get the lacklustre campaign. Perhaps they don't want to make it personal but the mayoralty has been and is about one man. You have to attack that.
Agreed, I don't get it either hence why I think it must be being dictated from Labour HQ who don't get the local nuance and the weapons they could deploy locally should they want to.
 
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DarloRich

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To be fair there's no apparent to the station rebuilding's at Darlington or Boro, they're definitely happening as we speak. The new platforms and railway infrastructure at Boro is in flux but the revamped station entrance and internal layout is well on its way to completion whilst Darlington station is currently half a building site with a massive new structure going up on the old car park.
Are new platforms for branch line trains the biggest priority in the Tees Valley? Are they even the biggest transport priority? it is misdirection on a grand scale.
 

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Are new platforms for branch line trains the biggest priority in the Tees Valley? Are they even the biggest transport priority? it is misdirection on a grand scale.
Sure but it's still something to point to isn't it as "proof" of what Houchen has "achieved and delivered" for the Tees Valley isn't it? That's the usefulness of it politically.
 

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Andy Street losing would be a shock considering he's pretty decent. London is probably going to be a win for Labour although stranger things have happen.
 

birchesgreen

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Andy Street losing would be a shock considering he's pretty decent. London is probably going to be a win for Labour although stranger things have happen.
Well it wouldn't really be a shock, a lot of people are fed up with him though a lot of the criticisms are along the lines of "why are you spending money on trams when it should be spent on X" where X isn't really in the mayor's purview. It looks like it will be pretty tight now, so the advantage is probably with the encumbant.
 

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Didn't he end up being exposed for being involved in some murky dealings too?

Well, he had a bit of an expenses scandal, but fairly modest by Conservative standards (under £10,000, I think). What did for him was ‘wandering hands’: normally this would probably have been dismissed as tittle-tattle, but it coincided with Harvey Weinstein starting to get his (over-)due desserts.
 

nw1

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Maybe?

I think the Tees Valley has been on quite an interesting journey politically. In 2019 (the big bang, with Houchen in 2017 being the warning sign that went unnoticed) I think it was a sign that the area was fed up with Labour, rightly or wrongly, so voted for change in the form of Tories (still miraculous how they painted themselves as the change candidates in 2019 after nine years in power) as well as it being a vote in favour of Boris who, no matter how odious many of us found him, did have quite high personal popularity. It was also a reaction to the toxicity of Corbyn. It is sometimes forgotten (or never realised) just how deeply unpopular he was personally in this area. Houchen winning in 2021 was on the back of the vaccine rollout, Boris still being comparatively popular (this was pre-Partygate recall), the rebuilding job of Labour still being a work in progress (this is the same election where Hartlepool went Tory in a by-election) and the Labour Mayoral candidate being, I'm sure lovely, but making zero impact at all in their campaign.
That would explain the move to Boris and the Tories in 2019, but even still, I thought most in the Red Wall were fed up of the Tories now.

Houchen sounds a bit of an iffy character by all accounts, so puzzled people would vote for him. Voting for Street is more understandable, by all accounts.

But I guess Houchen is a kind of "Boris of the North", some kind of larger-than-life character, but hasn't yet been discredited in the same way as Boris hence people still love him, or something?
 

SteveM70

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But I guess Houchen is a kind of "Boris of the North", some kind of larger-than-life character, but hasn't yet been discredited in the same way as Boris hence people still love him, or something?

Yeah, sort of. Perhaps (?) without the sexual incontinence though
 

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But I guess Houchen is a kind of "Boris of the North", some kind of larger-than-life character, but hasn't yet been discredited in the same way as Boris hence people still love him, or something?
I'm not especially convinced by that, he was happy to associate himself with Boris whilst Boris was popular but I wouldn't have said he shares any particular Boris traits as a politician or individual.

I think it's simply, as has been noted, that the issues around Teesworks, and elsewhere, are quite complex to fully understand, a lot of people value the amenity of a local airport he's seen as having "saved" (despite never using it), there are signs of money being spent on the area (Darlington and Middlesbrough station upgrades), the promise of more to come, the clear progress on clearing the steelworks site, the appearance of a new factory (to make wind turbine foundations), the supine nature of the local press who happily regurgitate puff pieces from his public relations staff without engaging critically with the content, and so on.

It's all quite thin as @DarloRich notes. But it isn't nothing and I can certainly see why he will do well enough, with a split vote, to win.
 

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