RMT announcement regarding sewage on tracks

[syorksdeano]

Just reading the RMT press release about trains depositing sewage in the tracks.

Am I missing something of are the 8 routes mentioned not named?

RMT reveals the eight rail routes still dumping raw sewage

RMT reveals the eight rail routes still dumping raw sewage on tracks and in stations.

RAIL UNION RMT has today revealed the eight routes still dumping raw sewage on tracks and in stations and demanded an immediate end to the archaic practice of trains spraying human excrement across the rail network.

Following answers to a number of Parliamentary questions RMT has learnt that eight major train operating companies continue to run trains that dump human waste on tracks and in stations across the rail network despite a pledge for the practice to end by the end of 2019.

According to recent answers to parliamentary the eight companies are Chiltern, CrossCountry, East Midlands Railway, Great Western Railway, Greater Anglia, Northern, West Midlands Trains and Transport for Wales. In the midst of a global health pandemic there is still no end in sight for the dumping of human waste as the Government admits by the end of this 2020 vehicles will still discharge waste onto the track.

Senior Assistant General Secretary Mick Lynch said;

“It beggars belief that in 2020 this Government continues to allow train operating companies to routinely dump raw sewage across our rail network and stations.

“It is utterly shameful that this foul and disgusting practice, which leaves our members out on the railways regularly sprayed with human sewage, continues in the midst of a global health pandemic.

“Promise after promise and deadline after deadline has been missed to end this practice once and for all and this revolting saga is now a totemic symbol of the decades old failure of privatised railway. RMT demands that this practice ends now to ensure our members health and safety is put first.”[\quote]

 

[swt_passenger]

Just reading the RMT press release about trains depositing sewage in the tracks.

Am I missing something of are the 8 routes mentioned not named?

RMT reveals the eight rail routes still dumping raw sewage

They list 8 TOCs? Confusing TOC and route...

 

[Brissle Girl]

How many still actually use the concession?I would have thought XC no longer does?

 

[sd0733]

Just reading the RMT press release about trains depositing sewage in the tracks.

Am I missing something of are the 8 routes mentioned not named?

RMT reveals the eight rail routes still dumping raw sewage

I presume by 8 routes they are referring to 8 TOCs.
Although the timing seems a little off as a fair chunk of those trains arent in use at the moment and some wont be again or have already been modified with tanks.
The Chiltern is the 'Banbury set' which is now at Long Marston stored and i believe replaced by ex-GA mk3s with tanks, Cross Country is the HSTs which i believe are now all fitted with tanks and WMT is the 153s which i dont think have seen use over any Corona timetable.
EMR is 153 and HST fleets, Anglia is the non renatus 321s and 317s, GWR i think is just a few 143s, Northern have the pacers and 153s and a couple of non PRM 156s and 323s and TfW have the temporary 153s which should go when the 230s and 769s enter service

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Much of this is down to the delay in withdrawing/upgrading Mk3 sets for various reasons.
The Covid service reductions also mean that not much of this old stock is actually in service at the moment (eg at TfW), and may never be again.
GA has surely got rid of all its Mk3 sets now?
The amount on non-compliant stock at each TOC is also very low (eg Chiltern and XC).

 

[Parallel]

To be fair, things have massively improved over the last few years, and are still improving - it won't be long before any remaining trains not fitted with tanks are removed from the network or fitted with the necessary modifications. A few years ago, nearly every GWR train (except the 180s), Transport for Wales (except the 175s), Northern and EMT train dumped waste on the tracks. A lot of the trains (14x) are only in use to help with the COVID situation, or used as a stop gap until other trains are cascaded.

 

[StephenHunter]

Much of this is down to the delay in withdrawing/upgrading Mk3 sets for various reasons.
The Covid service reductions also mean that not much of this old stock is actually in service at the moment (eg at TfW), and may never be again.
GA has surely got rid of all its Mk3 sets now?
The amount on non-compliant stock at each TOC is also very low (eg Chiltern and XC).

GA withdrew all the Mark 3s in the March and the rest of the non-compliant units will go as 720s replace them.

 

[sd0733]

GA has surely got rid of all its Mk3 sets now?
The amount on non-compliant stock at each TOC is also very low (eg Chiltern and XC).

I thought the GA sets were fitted with retention tanks at the last refurb anyway. Could be wrong though

 

[Alfie1014]

I thought the GA sets were fitted with retention tanks at the last refurb anyway. Could be wrong though

They were, their withdrawal was always about being non-PRM compliant. The big non-compliance on GA is the EMU fleet. The peak timetable on the GE is almost back up to pre-COVID levels (with only the Norwich service not running fully), that means the best part of 70 unrefurbished 321s are still in service, though the Northern 321s and 322s arriving will help a little. On the WA side the Stansted Express service is still only half hourly so some 379s are substituting for unmodified 317s and hopefully the 745/1s will enter service soon, which should pretty much eliminate all the non-compliant 317s on the West side. It will be a challenge to eliminate the 321s as quickly, though they have a dispensation to remain in traffic until the year end. The 360s not being needed until December for training helps a little too. Whether they are gone by year end we’ll have to wait and see especially as the normal solution to short form trains in the peak is not an attractive solution in the current climate.

 

[RichSwitch]

It would have been better if they had listed train classes and subclass rather than operators.

 

[superjohn]

It would have been better if they had listed train classes and subclass rather than operators.

They will quote whatever gives the biggest number to shout about.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

RMT never let the facts get in the way of a press release.

 

[py_megapixel]

They will quote whatever gives the biggest number to shout about.

Well I can think of 9 classes still in service without CETs (though I might be a bit out of date with a few of these):
142, 143, 144, 150, 153, 156, 323, IC125, 68+Mk3
If we count individual trains, then that's probably dozens of services a day.

I think, given the general sloppiness of how that article is written, it's more likely just poorly thought through.

 

[43096]

Well I can think of 9 classes still in service without CETs (though I might be a bit out of date with a few of these):
142, 143, 144, 150, 153, 156, 323, IC125, 68+Mk3
If we count individual trains, then that's probably dozens of services a day.

I think, given the general sloppiness of how that article is written, it's more likely just poorly thought through.

Were 323s not built with CET?

 

[BrianW]

How many YEARS have 'the authorities' had in which to get their act together and COMPLY.?
It's unpleasant, unhealthy and unnecessary.

 

[py_megapixel]

Were 323s not built with CET?

I didn't think so: their original toilets contain the "Do not operate flush in stations" stickers generally found on non-CET units.

 

[Energy]

"In the midst of a global health pandemic there is still no end in sight for the dumping of human waste as the Government admits by the end of this 2020 vehicles will still discharge waste onto the track." Err there is an end in sight as all the trains mentioned have a plan to be either replaced or CET fitted and the number of vehicles dumping waste is far lower than what it was a couple years ago.

Chiltern - will soon be receiving the GA mk3s to replace the Banbury set.
XC - HSTs getting fitted by Wabtec, not sure how many left but not many
EMR - the HSTs will be gone by the end of the year due to 360s and 180s
GWR - only a couple pacers, possibly a couple short HSTs but I believe all have been done by Wabtec
GA - 720s will replace all remaining non PRM stock and are undergoing testing.
Northern - all getting PRM fitted, check Northern refurbishments thread for list
WMT - 153s will be gone soon, 323s getting replaced by 730s
TfW - Pacers should be getting replaced by 769s and 230 soon, rest of stock is getting PRMd and replaced in 2022.

 

[Energy]

How many YEARS have 'the authorities' had in which to get their act together and COMPLY.?
It's unpleasant, unhealthy and unnecessary.

New trains take a while to get made, the modifications have also taken longer than expected for some trains, such as the creation of 230s and 769s and the HST conversions.

 

[py_megapixel]

How many YEARS have 'the authorities' had in which to get their act together and COMPLY.?
It's unpleasant, unhealthy and unnecessary.

While agree with you in principle, it's not that simple in practice.

To be fair the last units built without tanks entered service in the 1990s. Also you have to understand it's not as simple as just putting the CETs in: you have to provide facilities to pump out waste and clean the tanks, there are considerations such as how the situation will be handled if a toilet locks out due to a full tank on long journeys, and probably more that I haven't thought of.

There really was no incentive for any franchisees to do all of this anyway. Because of the way the system works, there is no value in a TOC voluntarily paying for CET fitment and all the other associated costs if their franchise ended before the deadline. In other words, there is no reason for a company to pay to be compliant with legislation which only comes into force when they'll be long-gone! This of course highlights why in my opinion the franchising system is so poor, but that's a can of worms I wish not to open, at least not in this thread.

There's also the fact that the cited RMT article is appalling badly written, as if it's been bashed out carelessly in a few minutes and then not seen so much as a proof-reading before being put online.

I'm not trying to excuse the practice of dumping waste onto the tracks, I just think your expectations are a little unrealistic.

 

[Liverpool 507]

Were 323s not built with CET?

I can confirm that 323’s do all have CET tanks, as I used to clean and service these units before they were PRMd.

The CET extraction drain is in the middle of the middle carriage above the solebar.

 

[Liverpool 507]

I presume by 8 routes they are referring to 8 TOCs.
Although the timing seems a little off as a fair chunk of those trains arent in use at the moment and some wont be again or have already been modified with tanks.
The Chiltern is the 'Banbury set' which is now at Long Marston stored and i believe replaced by ex-GA mk3s with tanks, Cross Country is the HSTs which i believe are now all fitted with tanks and WMT is the 153s which i dont think have seen use over any Corona timetable.
EMR is 153 and HST fleets, Anglia is the non renatus 321s and 317s, GWR i think is just a few 143s, Northern have the pacers and 153s and a couple of non PRM 156s and 323s and TfW have the temporary 153s which should go when the 230s and 769s enter service

The two remaining Northern 156s without CET tanks (156460 & 156464) are at Wolverton being worked on. The five ex ScotRail 156’s already had these fitted before moving to Northern.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

I think the RMT's jumping the gun here quite a lot here - first of all know XC or Scotrail HST's are running with their slam doors.

I'm not sure what the case is with the GWR Mark 3's as they have slam doors.

Pacers I understand have this issue - meaning dumping waste onto the tracks.

I don't know about the Class 15x trains though.

 

[43096]

I think the RMT's jumping the gun here quite a lot here - first of all know XC or Scotrail HST's are running with their slam doors.

I'm not sure what the case is with the GWR Mark 3's as they have slam doors.

The HST sets are all sliding door so have CET. The sleepers have had CET from new, which just leaves the Night Riviera day coaches - I assume they were all fitted at last overhaul.

 

[221129]

So the actual number is only 6 TOCs continue to have stock which dump waste onto the track. Of which a couple of them only have a very small number of units that do and they are planned for withdrawal soon.

 

[DarloRich]

I wonder how many posters have been hit by someone elses pooh while at work? It is fairly disgusting. I am surprised the RMT haven't made more of an issue about it frankly.

 

[py_megapixel]

I can confirm that 323’s do all have CET tanks, as I used to clean and service these units before they were PRMd.

The CET extraction drain is in the middle of the middle carriage above the solebar.

OK, I stand corrected... but what's with the stickers in the toilets about not operating the flush in stations then?

 

[DB]

Chiltern - will soon be receiving the GA mk3s to replace the Banbury set.

And the old Banbury set has already been withdrawn, so they no longer have any track-dump toilets.

XC - HSTs getting fitted by Wabtec, not sure how many left but not many

All now done

GWR - only a couple pacers, possibly a couple short HSTs but I believe all have been done by Wabtec

All HSTs in use since the beginning of the year have had tanks.

Do the RMT not realise that putting out this sort of rubbish does their credibility no good at all?

I wonder how many posters have been hit by someone elses pooh while at work? It is fairly disgusting. I am surprised the RMT haven't made more of an issue about it frankly.

Absolutely it needs to be dealt with, but the RMT's list includes some TOCs which have already elimintated it, and of the others there are active ongoing plans in all cases to do the same.

 

[Liverpool 507]

OK, I stand corrected... but what's with the stickers in the toilets about not operating the flush in stations then?

The 319s of ours had the same stickers before being PRMd. I can only assume Northern applied these stickers to get people in to the habit of not flushing the bog at stations, as the majority of Northerns fleet didn’t have CET tanks at the time.

 

[Liverpool 507]

The rate of Northerns 150’s getting CET tanks fitted has remarkably been sped up.

 

[pdeaves]

To be fair the last units built without tanks entered service in the 1990s. Also you have to understand it's not as simple as just putting the CETs in: you have to provide facilities to pump out waste and clean the tanks, there are considerations such as how the situation will be handled if a toilet locks out due to a full tank on long journeys, and probably more that I haven't thought of.

Potentially moving/replacing other equipment to make space for the tank(s), too. If there's nowhere to put a tank, you can't just plonk one in.