RMT statement discussion.

[Moonshot]

Unions ARE the members. No modern union can take industrial action unless supported by the membership.

If a modern union takes industrial action, it’s because the majority of members have voted for the action.

This fact is totally lost on some people on this forum. Strike action will always come down to a vote. Imo, there are going to be a lot of yes votes in the coming months, leading to some significant numbers of service cancellations.

 

[LAX54]

We’ve always had pay rises year on year on the railway since time began. It’s just how it is.

Don't think NR Signallers had one in 2020, and they are not getting one in 2021 either from what I have heard,

This fact is totally lost on some people on this forum. Strike action will always come down to a vote. Imo, there are going to be a lot of yes votes in the coming months, leading to some significant numbers of service cancellations.

also the way staff are treated in everyday life may have an influence on any vote, it seems if you laugh at a 'risque' joke someone says, you may, no will, be suspended and subject to disciplinary proceedings (as will the person who made such a joke)

 

[dk1]

Don't think NR Signallers had one in 2020, and they are not getting one in 2021 either from what I have heard,

I was referring to prior to the pandemic. I simply cannot recall a year when we didn’t get an increase in pay on the railways. It was as certain as Easter.

 

[43066]

That’s unfortunate considering some other TOCs employees appeared to benefit significantly from such practices & seemed keen to retain it as long as possible.

Which employees? Staff in office jobs such as roster clerks will have been able to work from home, not those working on the front line.

I’ve certainly observed that staff in other industries have been desperate to keep the Covid circus going for as long as possible, and for far longer than spare from home lasted on the railway. Furlough suited many who were happy to be paid £30k per year of taxpayers’ money to sit on their backsides, at a combined cost that will be being repaid for generations to come! I wonder how many on here moaning about railway staff wanting an an increase received furlough money.

Working from home seems to suit many rather too well - including some healthcare workers such as (extremely well paid) GPs to the detriment of their patients. Neither that nor furlough have been an option for front line railway staff, many of whom earn very modest salaries, who have had to continue to attend work throughout - yet we are now supposed to be grateful for our jobs? Frankly it’s an absolute joke.

I’ve long argued that given the very high level of extensive training required to drive any train on the Uk national network wages & conditions should be the same or at least broadly similar .

Have you indeed. You certainly do seem to take a keen interest in the Ts and Cs of railway staff. What do you do yourself, out of interest?

I’m also not sure that follows. I can think of any number of other jobs which have a long training period, but for which reward levels can be very variable. As someone has pointed out above, higher pay at certain operators hasn’t been given for nothing, conditions have been sold such as 12 hour movements off spare. You might be rostered to work at 0900, then with a couple of days’ notice discover you’re actually going in at 2100 for a night shift (or vice versa). Good luck planning any kind of life around that.

 

[exbrel]

every worker has the right to withdraw their labour... but, and there's always a but, with every price rising people have choices to make... now rail staff deserve a pay rise, so do most other workers, but, and there's that but again. Both the service and the demand have got to be in place, and covid has seen that they are not, no use a driver getting a good/desent rise if there are no passengers to carry, or no tracks available to run on, i think swings and roundabouts come to mind.
Unions besides looking after their members interests have their own agenda's, which don't always match, i have been in 2 unions during my working life, and membership is made up of hard core members, and those who want a job and do the job with no mither...
So supply and demand have got to be the key words... for both workers and management.

 

[Domh245]

Classified by whom? Surely they’re Private Sector non financial corporations?!

TOCs are private sector (albeit publicly traded) companies which have signed franchise agreements, and then additional EMA agreements which effectively amend the franchise agreements concerning financial support and revenue risk. If you look at the treasury sector classification documentation “Control” for these purposes means who controls the company itself (ie who are the shareholders who can appoint/remove directors) rather than the other parties to the agreements signed.

Of course it’s different when you get to franchises operated by the OLR and Scotrail who are effectively fully nationalised and controlled by companies in whom the government is the shareholder.

By the ONS for the purposes of government borrowing:

After reviewing their classification against international statistical guidelines, the Office for National Statistics (ONS) has concluded that those train operating companies (TOCs) that have entered into emergency measures agreements (EMAs) with the UK and Scottish Governments should be classified to the public sector for statistical purposes.

Under the EMAs, normal franchise mechanisms have been amended, transferring almost all revenue and cost risk to the government. In addition, the TOCs have had restrictions placed on their ability to borrow money and cannot make significant changes to fares or staffing levels without government agreement. This has led the ONS to conclude that public sector control exists over them and that, in accordance with international statistical guidelines, they should be classified as public non-financial corporations with effect from 1 April 2020. As the EMAs are temporary in nature, the ONS will review the classification status of TOCs again in the future if the EMAs are amended or expire.

Any organisation’s classification status is a statistical matter that does not have any direct implications in areas such as ownership, legal status, or management structure. Therefore, following a classification, the only direct change is how an organisation is accounted for in ONS official statistics. Accordingly, the TOCs’ net borrowing and debt will be included in the relevant ONS public sector finances series and their workforces will be included in the public sector employment totals as soon as possible.

Given the lack of further updates, and similarities between EMAs and ERMAs, I would expect the above still applies

 

[Annetts key]

I've personally never seen so many TSR & ESR of 20mph on the routes I sign. Whatever is going on, it's now affecting the ability to keep to time. Lineside vegetation is also now totally out of control too, though that's a separate discussion.

Network Rail’s current ideas on how to reduce costs are to reduce the amount of routine scheduled infrastructure maintenance carried out by its front line staff by half (50%). And to remove thousands of infrastructure jobs.

 

[43066]

By the ONS for the purposes of government borrowing:



Given the lack of further updates, and similarities between EMAs and ERMAs, I would expect the above still applies

Although importantly the document you’ve quoted also states:

Any organisation’s classification status is a statistical matter that does not have any direct implications in areas such as ownership, legal status, or management structure. Therefore, following a classification, the only direct change is how an organisation is accounted for in ONS official statistics.

So confirming, as discussed above, that this doesn’t make a material difference in the case of the non-nationalised TOCs.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

TOCs are public limited companies and their employees aren’t “public sector” by most definitions.

But the Office of National Statistics has reclassified the TOCs as public sector, like they did with Network Rail in 2015, because the majority of their funding and degree of control comes from the government.

 

[Annetts key]

Yet the routes I drive have very few ESRs or TSRs and I am blasting the horn at many locations daily where teams are tackling line side vegetation on a large scale. It’s certainly not a nationwide problem.

Although Network Rail has its own staff to clear vegetation, they can’t keep up with the workload. So in some areas, Network Rail are using contractors.

The unions would prefer that the money being spend on contractors instead be used to boost Network Rails own workforce. Because the vegetation is always going to be growing back. So the work will always be there

However, Network Rail claim that vegetation clearance cannot be an all year task, partly due to restrictions on disturbing wildlife.

Another consideration is that as Network Rail have effectively banned working with lookout protection, infrastructure engineering staff now have to get the passage of trains stopped if they cannot walk clear of the line(s). So where there is space, it is in the interest of everyone if the lineside can be kept free of vegetation and scrap so that staff can access the infrastructure.

 

[muz379]

also the way staff are treated in everyday life may have an influence on any vote, it seems if you laugh at a 'risque' joke someone says, you may, no will, be suspended and subject to disciplinary proceedings (as will the person who made such a joke)

This is a very true and often overlooked point , whilst the ballot paper might say put an X in the box for strike action over pay . How employees generally feel at that moment about many other areas of their employment will impact that decision that is just human nature .

Right now there is a lot of discontent about what feels like managed decline , with us carrying over 100% of pre covid leisure travel with a 75% timetable offering there is a lot of staff being put in unpalatable situations . Sure there are some staff who do not care about doing a good job but I think they are outweighed massively in the industry . The VLS that was only given to a very small number of managers also seems to have caused a great deal ill feeling among some .

Unions besides looking after their members interests have their own agenda's, which don't always match, i have been in 2 unions during my working life, and membership is made up of hard core members, and those who want a job and do the job with no mither...

Whilst the internal politics of a union is often dominated by the loudest and most militant . It is worth coming back to the point that they themselves cannot unilaterally decide to call a strike , it needs at least 50% of those employed to return a ballot paper , and 40% of those entitled to vote to vote in favour . In practice this is often exceeded on the railway .

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I was referring to prior to the pandemic. I simply cannot recall a year when we didn’t get an increase in pay on the railways. It was as certain as Easter.

If you go back far enough, there were national (ie it applied to everybody) pay and price freezes after the hyper-inflation years 1974-5 (caused by the oil crisis).
Eventually, it was realised that you could get round that by having bonus systems linked to productivity (which could be at the corporate or personal level).
It was the beginning of the annual bonus round which applies in many industries today, based on profits or increases in "efficiency".

 

[dk1]

If you go back far enough, there were national (ie it applied to everybody) pay and price freezes after the hyper-inflation years 1974-5 (caused by the oil crisis).
Eventually, it was realised that you could get round that by having bonus systems linked to productivity (which could be at the corporate or personal level).
It was the beginning of the annual bonus round which applies in many industries today, based on profits or increases in "efficiency".

Thank you. Didnt know that. My employment started in 1984 so only a boy

 

[Annetts key]

This is a very true and often overlooked point , whilst the ballot paper might say put an X in the box for strike action over pay . How employees generally feel at that moment about many other areas of their employment will impact that decision that is just human nature .

Right now there is a lot of discontent about what feels like managed decline , with us carrying over 100% of pre covid leisure travel with a 75% timetable offering there is a lot of staff being put in unpalatable situations . Sure there are some staff who do not care about doing a good job but I think they are outweighed massively in the industry . The VLS that was only given to a very small number of managers also seems to have caused a great deal ill feeling among some .

Whilst the internal politics of a union is often dominated by the loudest and most militant . It is worth coming back to the point that they themselves cannot unilaterally decide to call a strike , it needs at least 50% of those employed to return a ballot paper , and 40% of those entitled to vote to vote in favour . In practice this is often exceeded on the railway .

This is an extract from the U.K. Government “CODE OF PRACTICE,
Industrial Action Ballots and Notice to Employers”:

Ballot thresholds for industrial action
25.Section 226(2) of the 1992 Act sets minimum thresholds of a 50% turnout in all industrial action ballots, and for a 40% level of support in favour of industrial action where the majority of those entitled to vote are normally engaged in the provision of a specified important public service unless at that time the union reasonably believes this not to be the case. In all cases, a simple majority (i.e. more than half) of the votes cast must be in favour of industrial action in order for it to go ahead.

The relevant link to this document is from this government web site www.gov.uk/industrial-action-strikes. The current direct link is this www.gov.uk/government/publications/code-of-practice-industrial-action-ballots-and-notice-to-employers
(It’s too large to quote everything)

 

[Domh245]

Although importantly the document you’ve quoted also states:



So confirming, as discussed above, that this doesn’t make a material difference in the case of the non-nationalised TOCs.

Sure the non-OLR TOCs are technically still privately owned, but I don't see how that's at all relevant in this case (bar semantics) when it's abundantly clear that TOC staff are all public sector employees to all intents and purposes. That (eg) Abellio owns "Abellio East Midlands Limited" doesn't matter when the DfT are making all the important decisions

 

[ComUtoR]

Both the service and the demand have got to be in place, and covid has seen that they are not, no use a driver getting a good/desent rise if there are no passengers to carry, or no tracks available to run on, i think swings and roundabouts come to mind.

(...)
So supply and demand have got to be the key words... for both workers and management.

Whilst there is an element of truth that a business must consider supply and demand when negotiating pay; there is far more to it. You will also have to consider the is a competitive job market. You need to attract staff into your business to sustain a healthy workforce. This also includes staff turnover and retention. There could also be a contractual obligation. Many Driver pay deals are multi year. Great if they were in just before Covid but less so if nothing was on the table. As you say, cost of living is going up, there is almost a moral obligation for simple cost of living rises. The National Living Wage has been increased by 6.6% for +23yr olds. Would people support Drivers and other Railway staff getting a 6% rise ? BT are touting a potential 8% increase. Can I have that ?

 

[Starmill]

Yes Furlough happened at open access operators but they completely ceased operations

It was a possibility that the entire railway would cease operations. That's what the point being made was. Luckily this didn't happen.

Sure the non-OLR TOCs are technically still privately owned, but I don't see how that's at all relevant in this case (bar semantics) when it's abundantly clear that TOC staff are all public sector employees to all intents and purposes. That (eg) Abellio owns "Abellio East Midlands Limited" doesn't matter when the DfT are making all the important decisions

Indeed. Consultants for example are quite different because they are able to choose whom they bid for work from, from both the public sector and more widely. Unfortunately, Abellio East Midlands Limited has only one client and is permitted to work for them only.

Can I have that ?

I don't know why you're asking us but the answer from me is absolutely 100% sure. Along with all other public sector workers. I quite agree with you about the moral case for public borrowing to fund this. I assume of course that you voted for an opposition party which supports public sector pay rise and not the Conservatives? Now what's your plan for getting Rishi Sunak out of office because it is pretty obvious that he won't be giving people in the public sector such pay rises?

 

[exbrel]

the main consideration is starting points, a top notch driver due to training and experience is worth his salt, a road sweeper(do they still have them?) is still worth his salt, but not as much as the driver, but their bills are the same, they shop in the same shops. So do you hold the driver back so that the sweeper catches up? would the drivers union agree to that?, would productivity come into play or opportunity,? Or is it down to who has the biggest, powerful union,

 

[muz379]

It was a possibility that the entire railway would cease operations. That's what the point being made was. Luckily this didn't happen.

I understand the point perfectly clearly thank you . I still do not think that is down to luck either . I think it was a calculated decision .

I do not think it would have been an easy case of just reccomencing operations once we came out of lockdown . And of course with restrictions towards the latter end of the pandemic being gradually increased/relaxed based on events would you have stopped/started operations on a week by week basis ?

 

[Starmill]

I understand the point perfectly clearly thank you . I still do not think that is down to luck either . I think it was a calculated decision .

I do not think it would have been an easy case of just reccomencing operations once we came out of lockdown . And of course with restrictions towards the latter end of the pandemic being gradually increased/relaxed based on events would you have stopped/started operations on a week by week basis ?

It was a decision which was out of the hands of the industry is the point that was being made in the post which you quoted. Fortunately lobbying was a success and short time available to make a decision likely worked very much in favour of the railway at this point. A decision had to be made very quickly within a few days and once it was made going back on it would have looked particularly silly.

I would prefer to avoid speculating about what might have happened if there had been a full close down but it is unlikely that operations would have recommenced by now other than on a small number of long distance routes given the scale of the challenge. Bus, tram and other similar systems would have been possible to bring back online much more quickly although still with many months of downtime.

 

[43066]

Sure the non-OLR TOCs are technically still privately owned, but I don't see how that's at all relevant in this case (bar semantics) when it's abundantly clear that TOC staff are all public sector employees to all intents and purposes. That (eg) Abellio owns "Abellio East Midlands Limited" doesn't matter when the DfT are making all the important decisions

The original point (which has been lost somewhat) was to refute the statement that, just because something is publicly funded, it’s public sector. There’s more to it than that as the example I gave of consultants working on public sector projects demonstrates. It’s an important distinction, albeit one which I accept doesn’t matter much in practice for the purposes of this discussion.

However the ONS classifies the railway at the moment, most TOCs remain privately owned, in contrast with fully nationalised TOCs where the ownership has been temporarily transferred to the government. That basic ownership structure hasn’t changed at all. The much vaunted “re nationalisation” of the railway is only temporary and will be unwound in due course.

British Rail has not been recreated here, and very clearly isn’t going to be.

I understand the point perfectly clearly thank you . I still do not think that is down to luck either . I think it was a calculated decision .

I do not think it would have been an easy case of just reccomencing operations once we came out of lockdown . And of course with restrictions towards the latter end of the pandemic being gradually increased/relaxed based on events would you have stopped/started operations on a week by week basis ?

I’ve not seen any evidence that full closure of the railway was ever seriously considered by anybody other than certain posters on here who seem to be on a crusade to rip up branch lines to create guided busways etc.

 

[Goldfish62]

Working from home seems to suit many rather too well - including some healthcare workers such as (extremely well paid) GPs to the detriment of their patients.

This is the second time the salaries of GPs has been mentioned on this thread.

GPs have between two and five times the suicide rate of the general population such is the stress of the job.

Believe it or not highly stressful and dangerous jobs do exist outside the railway bubble.

 

[bramling]

It was a decision which was out of the hands of the industry is the point that was being made in the post which you quoted. Fortunately lobbying was a success and short time available to make a decision likely worked very much in favour of the railway at this point. A decision had to be made very quickly within a few days and once it was made going back on it would have looked particularly silly.

I would prefer to avoid speculating about what might have happened if there had been a full close down but it is unlikely that operations would have recommenced by now other than on a small number of long distance routes given the scale of the challenge. Bus, tram and other similar systems would have been possible to bring back online much more quickly although still with many months of downtime.

Notwithstanding all the fuss about TFL, I don't think it would have been viable to close London's rail system, certainly not beyond the very early days of March 2020's lockdown. With the lack of car ownership and parking in London, there's no way the road system would have been able to cope, and buses simply wouldn't have offered sufficient capacity.

 

[SuperNova]

I’ve seen a few suggestions that rail workers should be subject to public sector pay policy. There is no argument for that to be applied to employees of any company that is not state owned. The DFT may dictate a lot of what happens at TOCs but they’re not public sector companies and accordingly should not be subject to public sector pay policy. Even the TOCs that are ran by the DFT aren’t public sector companies, they’re private companies that are owned by the taxpayer.

The only rail employers I could potentially see there being a valid argument to apply public sector pay policy to are those where the operations are very much nationalised - ScotRail, TFW, London Underground and Tyne & Wear Metro - and Network Rail.


Those assets could however by nationalised by a new act of Parliament should it be decided that nationalisation is the best plan of action.

All TOC's are nationalised all but in name. Just because they're contracted out to operators through the DfT and the National Rail Contracts does not mean they are 'privatised'. Taxpayers are funding the railways and as such, rail workers are now in effect public sector workers. No wage rises will be agreed without input from the Department for Transport.

I find it quite worrying as a union member that unions like the RMT and their reps don't understand the impact of National Rail Contracts.

 

[Starmill]

This is the second time the salaries of GPs has been mentioned on this thread.

GPs have between two and five times the suicide rate of the general population such is the stress of the job.

Believe it or not highly stressful and dangerous jobs do exist outside the railway bubble.

I do find it very weird how people think it is the fault of GPs and GP surgeries that they can't get access to care, rather than questioning the government as to why funding for the service is so poor in the first place. Especially in the same discussion as where it is being pointed out ad infinitum that insufficient government funding is made available for public transport.

 

[bramling]

This is the second time the salaries of GPs has been mentioned on this thread.

GPs have between two and five times the suicide rate of the general population such is the stress of the job.

Believe it or not highly stressful and dangerous jobs do exist outside the railway bubble.

The problem in that specific case is the general practice "industry" really hasn't done itself any favours over the last two years. Proverbial brick walls round surgeries and patients fobbed off, tragically this is almost certain to lead to numerous cases of people having a worse outcome in the medium and long term through missed or late diagnosis.

 

[Starmill]

I find it quite worrying as a union member that unions like the RMT and their reps don't understand the impact of National Rail Contracts.

It is very concerning yes. In particular they do still have some significant leverage over the Department, especially around recruitment, training, retention and efficiency. There is a lot that they could be using to make their case to the Department in those things which could actually be quite effective; arguments about living expenses and similar costs are very ineffective unfortunately. Maybe they already are, though, I don't know!

 

[ComUtoR]

I assume of course that you voted for an opposition party which supports public sector pay rise and not the Conservatives?

I am not eligible to vote. I'm a Non Dom...

 

[DennisM]

Sure the non-OLR TOCs are technically still privately owned, but I don't see how that's at all relevant in this case (bar semantics) when it's abundantly clear that TOC staff are all public sector employees to all intents and purposes. That (eg) Abellio owns "Abellio East Midlands Limited" doesn't matter when the DfT are making all the important decisions

TOC staff worked their way through the entire pandemic, this wasn’t done as a favour to the staff, It was so essential travel could still happen.
Sure some staff had the odd spare from home or an early finish, but an early finish last year is not going to help with the 40% increase on the gas bill.

In stark contrast many companies shut down and sent everyone home on 75% pay for which the tax payer footed the bill. Why do these workers not owe a debt to taxpayers in the same way as rail staff? Many of these companies have returned to making profit, handing out pay rises and bonuses. No one is suggesting these companies or their staff, who were paid to sit at home for a year, make sacrifices in return for the taxpayer support received.

 

[bramling]

I do find it very weird how people think it is the fault of GPs and GP surgeries that they can't get access to care, rather than questioning the government as to why funding for the service is so poor in the first place. Especially in the same discussion as where it is being pointed out ad infinitum that insufficient government funding is made available for public transport.

I'm not convinced funding is the main issue here. Compare the experience, even now, between seeing a dentist and seeing a GP.