It's one thing to say that you think someone is overpaid, yet it's silliness in the extreme if you take two jobs that you have never done and then declare that one is worth four times the pay of the other one!
That's how silly this one has got!
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RMT suspends strike action
- Thread starter ANorthernGuard
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It's one thing to say that you think someone is overpaid, yet it's silliness in the extreme if you take two jobs that you have never done and then declare that one is worth four times the pay of the other one!
That's how silly this one has got!
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Whistler40145
Established Member
All I can say IMHO it's extortionate the high pay Footballers get paid.
Their pay keeps going up whether they do a good job or not.
Their pay keeps going up whether they do a good job or not.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
I see that a link is slowly appearing between strike action on the railways and that of professional football.
Based upon the same reasoning, how would Bob Crow fare as a manager of a professional football team...........or Sir Alex Ferguson as the leader of a large union with many railway members? Who would make a better success of these two hypothetical jobs?
This offers some scope for thought
Whistler40145
Established Member
Let's just say, I would be scared to even think of Sir Alex Ferguson in Bob Crow's shoes, he would have the union members shi**ing themselves.
Minilad
Established Member
I think you would find ferguson would do a fantasic job for his members. He was an delegate when he worked in the govan shipyards
Whistler40145
Established Member
Yes he would, but you would be watching every step.
I call myself 'Captain' because I am. < removed>
I have travelled in a few train cabs and personally know some drivers; I know what the job involves. You should read my posts more carefully and you'd see your statement above is tosh.
From some, yes. But not from the likes of you.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
They are entitled to 'a decent wage'. Isn't £40K a 'decent wage' for train driving? Or even £35K?
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ralphchadkirk
Established Member
Are airline captains arrogant as well?
Whistler40145
Established Member
Let's not get too heated on this subject!
ANorthernGuard
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just the one *sigh
Whistler40145
Established Member
I have a family friend who is a pilot with BA & he is anything but arrogant.
tbtc
Veteran Member
The problem is that if I suggest that £40,000 is a decent sum of money for driving a train (when average wages are maybe £21,000) people want to bite my head off and suggest that I'm wanting drivers to live below the poverty line.
As I'm not a driver I'm not allowed to comment, apparently.
tbtc, ignore those specious arguments. If we could comment on something only if we have first-hand experience of it, that would be a great way for for people to get away with ludicrous practices and payments without fear of anyone calling 'foul'.
Should we not decry the MPs who stole from us via their expenses system simply because we are not MPs ourselves?
Should we not criticise bankers for very poor financial performance while they continue to take home massive bonuses if we have never worked in banking?
If you see pi55-taking with our money or our services, feel free to express an opinion about it! More than that - it's your duty to society to express that opinion!
If those we accuse can justify what we accuse them of, they will be able to do so with logical argument. Resorting to trying to shut people up because they don't work in that industry is a sign of a poor case on their part - one they feel they cannot justify through open argument.
Should we not decry the MPs who stole from us via their expenses system simply because we are not MPs ourselves?
Should we not criticise bankers for very poor financial performance while they continue to take home massive bonuses if we have never worked in banking?
If you see pi55-taking with our money or our services, feel free to express an opinion about it! More than that - it's your duty to society to express that opinion!
If those we accuse can justify what we accuse them of, they will be able to do so with logical argument. Resorting to trying to shut people up because they don't work in that industry is a sign of a poor case on their part - one they feel they cannot justify through open argument.
It is a decent salary, no matter what the job is. But because it's a decent amount does not mean that those employees should be expected to have their pay reduced to be more in line with others.
I think that people quite understandably get defensive when it is suggested that they are paid too much, as the ifnerence is that this should be addressed by bringing their pay down in some way.
It doesn't mean you don't have the right to express an opinion though. Nor that others don't have the right to disagree!
ANorthernGuard
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I agree that 40k is a decent sum of money to drive, it does not mean tho that it isn't deserved (IMO)
notadriver
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Captain Speaking just for the record i think senior airliner Captains are worth their 100k+ salary (if they work in an airline that pays them that) ....
It's very difficult to say who's worth what. The market (and with a few historic and declining exceptions, it's the market that sets the rates) thinks £100K is about £30 to 40K too much for that job today. What determines who gets paid what is "how much do you need to pay to attract and keep persons of the requsite skills and ability". So far, the airlines are able to attract far more peope to flying jobs than there are jobs available, even with reduced slalries and conditions, and even though candidates often have to find up to £100K up front for their licences and type rating.
As new pilots find the job is not what it was, they may become dissilussioned and leave for careers elsewhere (they are bright and ambitious people and will do well almost anywhere). If that happens, expect to see airlines improving pay and conditions, and introducing more sponsorship schemes to help with intial training costs. As I said, it's market driven.
The situation with train driving is not the same. You can't qualify for train driving school, buy yourself a train driving course, get licenced if you are good enough, get a Pendelino type rating and go to Virgin for a job, or a 66 rating and try the freight companies. It doesn't work like that. Therefore it isn't market driven. That's because, unlike the airline or the bus business, railways are not market driven. They live in a monopolistic environment on a subsidy from the taxpayer; the TOCs put up with paying drivers far more than they'd probably need to in a market-driven environment because costs on the railway are not under the same pressures as they would be in a truly competitive industry, such as civil aviation.
However, as McNulty has pointed out, this can't last. If the railways are to survive, never mind grow, they must cut costs. If they don't they will wither as lines and services are cut back as unaffordable. Probably only the London Commuter business would be difficult to replace by other forms of transport.
Those of us who like travelling by train are concerned about this - we want rail to thrive, not be choked to death by union greed.
Ask Stelios and Michael O'Leary about cutting out cost!
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Whistler40145
Established Member
The total pay one gets depends on how much responsibility each member of staff has & in the case of Train Drivers how much you are relied upon to provide a high class service.
The ability to handle responsibility is taken into account when candidates are profiled for particular roles; those who can achieve what the job demands are in line to get that job (assuming they meet the other job requirements), while those that cannot or do not wish to handle that level of reponsibility, will not get that job.
The pay for the more responsible role may well be higher, but that's because there are fewer people that can handle the responsibility than people who can't or who don't wish to. And therefore the employer has to pay more to attract those more able folk to the role.
There are of course other factors that determine level of pay, such as:
Adaptability.
Ability to get things done without having to be promted from above.
Working well in a team.
Resourcefulness.
Appropriate technical skills.
Communication skills.
Being a worker rather than a shirker.
.....And many more.
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I've been a passenger on a plane before (and once,would you believe,sat right next to the aisle leading up to the cabin) therefore I am a pilot.:roll:
You CAN comment on any job/career/hobby you like.
You CANNOT compare how difficult one career is compared to another if you have no first-hand experience of that career.
Well,actually,you can but don't expect to be taken seriously Capt Irrelevant
I have no experience of Rocket Science,Atomic Research or working in a latex contraception factory.
My lack of absolute arrogance stops me telling anyone who will listen (read) which is the more deserving career.
Perhaps others should take my lead.
You CAN comment on any job/career/hobby you like.
You CANNOT compare how difficult one career is compared to another if you have no first-hand experience of that career.
Well,actually,you can but don't expect to be taken seriously Capt Irrelevant
I have no experience of Rocket Science,Atomic Research or working in a latex contraception factory.
My lack of absolute arrogance stops me telling anyone who will listen (read) which is the more deserving career.
Perhaps others should take my lead.
Whistler40145
Established Member
Certainly not, especially Sir Fred Goodwin!
And I have more faith in a Train Driver getting me from A to B than Bankers & Politicians in their jobs!
And I have more faith in a Train Driver getting me from A to B than Bankers & Politicians in their jobs!
In my book it says:
"Qualified,experienced train driver? No? Then how can you possibly understand?"
It's quite a simple premise - nothing like the complicated 'who's to blame for the financial crisis?' scenario.
Naturally,I'll expect your next post to contain more questions that totally (deliberately?) miss the point.
As you were...
Whistler40145
Established Member
Blimey, was that decision expected or have FTPE crumbled under pressure?
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Where did your hear this..at what time?
nedchester
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Flying Snail
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No, because they have proven themselves to be incompetents.
The justification always given for the astronomical salaries and bonuses earned by senior bankers was that they were uniquely brilliant at their jobs. They were the only ones able to master the complex world of international finance. The truth was they were greedy fools who believed their own hype and wasted trillions of other people's money buying into financial junk products that they didn't understand.
You are correct that Market forces, not worth or responsibility is the driver of salaries. You are wrong that it is the subsidies that have pushed up drivers' salaries. If that was true other rail staff would be on similar rates which they are not.
It is the speciity of the skills required for the job that is dictating the Market.
Unlike pilots the main skills involved are ones that are not transferable to across the industry. An exPerienced SR electric driver will need costly and time costly and time consuming training at their employer,s expense to take a job driving DMUs for TPE.
With pilots as you point out many people enter the industry having self financed most of their training almost ready to jump straight into the seat of an in service jet with minimal expense from the employer. Add to that the oversupply of pilots and the competition for jobs it is a
Inevitable that salaries are sliding.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
The statement on the First TPE site says that no agreement was made and the talks were to resume again.....unless I have read it wrongly.
Agree with most of that, FS, and it's good to read such a well constructed and sensibly argued post; most refreshing!
I think the TOCs are responsible for high train driver salaries because at privatisation, they percieved there was an oversupply for the privatised railway and offered severance deals to cut driver numbers. They overdid it, and because they are reluctant to train large numbers of new drivers, those in service command a 'rarity' value. Chickens, roost, home etc.
There is actually currently a pilot shortage - even BA, the holy grail of pilot employment who can usually easily poach from from other airlines are advertising for pilot entrants. I don't think we'll ever see the likes of Hamble again, but I think those market forces are beginning to stop, and perhaps reverse, the worstening conditions in the cockpit.
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