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Road and rail building plans under review after Covid

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Bletchleyite

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Before covid, the block grant was only about a third of local government funding. The majority is property-linked tax.

And to some view, it does not matter whether central government or local government is subsidising suburban sprawl. It is an inefficient use of land and a soulless place to live. We can do much better but must build roads and rails for it.

The inefficiency argument I can accept, but "soulless" is entirely a matter of opinion (it can be countered with "safe, quiet and undisturbed") and it isn't yours or mine to judge how others choose to live other than on a practical level.
 
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snowball

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Isn’t the real benefit of the whole process that DfT/NR can show that some repetitive and high profile reopening proposals just need to be finally ignored?
Proponents of schemes rarely take no for an answer.

And to be fair, people like that are needed.
 

ashkeba

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The inefficiency argument I can accept, but "soulless" is entirely a matter of opinion (it can be countered with "safe, quiet and undisturbed") and it isn't yours or mine to judge how others choose to live other than on a practical level.
No, we should let them judge and they are less happy in surveys but feel it is the best available option they can afford. British urban housing has been neglected, is often impractical for modern life and some is almost modern slum. British villages are often either unaffordable to many or too remote for work. So people make do with suburban sprawl estates out near recent ring roads, unhappy. Changing this could start with changing what infrastructure is funded.
 

Class 170101

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Re your penultimate para, l am a Civil Servant and we understand that the next Spending Review will be multi-year. Last year was a one off in exceptional circumstances.

Still not holding out much for the railways but now over many years. Beyond HS2 Stage 2B Western there doesn't seem like a lot.
 

Mark J

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.

Johnson and the government want to create a general impression that they are reversing Beeching among those voters who have no special knowledge or interest. But as Bald Rick says, specific promises have been avoided. The number of actual schemes will be small.
Looking at the list of schemes, I'm disappointed that 'reopen this station', and 'redouble this line' have been included in the list of projects.

Why?

A) The 'restoring your railway' initiative should be about reopening old lines - either existing freight lines, or old formations for modern day passenger services.
B) Isn't there already/hasn't there been a scheme in place regarding submitting proposals for re-opening Stations? Therefore I don't see why Stations have been included.
C) Redoubling of existing routes should be Network Rail's responsibility. Isn't part of NR's remit to ensure that the existing infrastructure can cope with modern day demands? If not, to provide enhancements.
D) What has "Ascot to Ash Vale 'reconfiguration' " got to do with restoring a railway? It is an extant line providing regular services. Again, any enhancements should be a NR responsibility.
 

Kingham West

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Looking at the list of schemes, I'm disappointed that 'reopen this station', and 'redouble this line' have been included in the list of projects.

Why?

A) The 'restoring your railway' initiative should be about reopening old lines - either existing freight lines, or old formations for modern day passenger services.
B) Isn't there already/hasn't there been a scheme in place regarding submitting proposals for re-opening Stations? Therefore I don't see why Stations have been included.
C) Redoubling of existing routes should be Network Rail's responsibility. Isn't part of NR's remit to ensure that the existing infrastructure can cope with modern day demands? If not, to provide enhancements.
D) What has "Ascot to Ash Vale 'reconfiguration' " got to do with restoring a railway? It is an extant line providing regular services. Again, any enhancements should be a NR responsibility.
I think Beeching did close a lot of stations , in what are now growth /boom towns like Wantage , and Wooton Bassett.
So it is fair to include these.
Presumably with demographic change, and the move to the more rural areas , it will be hard for minsters to reject schemes like Ludgershall and Witney, which are serving the growth markets of tomorrow.
 

Mark J

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I think Beeching did close a lot of stations , in what are now growth /boom towns like Wantage , and Wooton Bassett.
So it is fair to include these.
Presumably with demographic change, and the move to the more rural areas , it will be hard for minsters to reject schemes like Ludgershall and Witney, which are serving the growth markets of tomorrow.
Although those last two mentioned are actual rail line reopening proposals and should be rightly be on the 'restoring your railway' list of proposals.

Individual station re-openings and redoubling of existing lines shouldn't be, as I thought the existing 'New Stations Fund' already covered reopening of Stations.
 

zwk500

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Looking at the list of schemes, I'm disappointed that 'reopen this station', and 'redouble this line' have been included in the list of projects.

Why?

A) The 'restoring your railway' initiative should be about reopening old lines - either existing freight lines, or old formations for modern day passenger services.
B) Isn't there already/hasn't there been a scheme in place regarding submitting proposals for re-opening Stations? Therefore I don't see why Stations have been included.
C) Redoubling of existing routes should be Network Rail's responsibility. Isn't part of NR's remit to ensure that the existing infrastructure can cope with modern day demands? If not, to provide enhancements.
D) What has "Ascot to Ash Vale 'reconfiguration' " got to do with restoring a railway? It is an extant line providing regular services. Again, any enhancements should be a NR responsibility.
The answer is that Johnson doesn't care about Beeching specifically. He wants a list of 'quick wins' that allow him and his fellow Tory candidates to demonstrate that people should keep voting for them at the next election as they'll come round and open your local station.
 

snowball

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Although those last two mentioned are actual rail line reopening proposals and should be rightly be on the 'restoring your railway' list of proposals.

Individual station re-openings and redoubling of existing lines shouldn't be, as I thought the existing 'New Stations Fund' already covered reopening of Stations.
The money put aside for the overall initiative is not enough to reinstate more than a handful of lines. Station reopenings and redoubling have to be included make the whole thing seem bigger than it is.
 
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Mark J

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I think Beeching did close a lot of stations , in what are now growth /boom towns like Wantage , and Wooton Bassett.
So it is fair to include these.
Presumably with demographic change, and the move to the more rural areas , it will be hard for minsters to reject schemes like Ludgershall and Witney, which are serving the growth markets of tomorrow.
Just to quote your post once more. :D

With Wantage, any station on the GW mainline would in effect be 'Wantage Parkway', as the station would be around two and a half miles from the centre of Wantage itself.
 

Bletchleyite

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Just to quote your post once more. :D

With Wantage, any station on the GW mainline would in effect be 'Wantage Parkway', as the station would be around two and a half miles from the centre of Wantage itself.

This is no great problem for traffic sources, though, which I imagine it would be. The reason not to do it would be if there's another nearby station that's just as convenient to drive* to. (This is why for example Swanbourne shouldn't and won't reopen - it is easier to drive from Swanbourne to Winslow than it would be to the old Swanbourne station).

* Or cycle; if you think cycling might be popular, providing better cycle facilities on that route would be cheaper and better than another station.
 

BrianW

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Just to quote your post once more. :D

With Wantage, any station on the GW mainline would in effect be 'Wantage Parkway', as the station would be around two and a half miles from the centre of Wantage itself.
How about 'Wantage Road'? And maybe a tramway/ light-light-rail connection? Opportunity for the return of Shannon?
 

zwk500

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How about 'Wantage Road'? And maybe a tramway/ light-light-rail connection? Opportunity for the return of Shannon?
Tramway/light rail would be overkill surely? An electric shuttle bus through Grove to Wantage would be enough wouldn't it?
 

matacaster

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That depends what you mean by cheaper. Ultimately it is the whole life cost of the whole logistics operation that is the ‘cost’. Capital cost of the vehicles is but a small part of that.
Don't forget though that govt policy seriously skews costs. Eg if lorry tax was tripled and lorry fuel taxed so as to hit environmental goals then rail might well be cheaper for many more flows. Road is cheap because that's what government taxation makes it. Rail is also burdened by having to pay for its boundary fencing for example.
 

GRALISTAIR

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Only if you persist in running short trains around the place. It would not be hard, for instance, to near double the capacity of XC - obtain and run 10-car trains instead of silly short ones. This is true all over the (non-London-commuter) railway, even on parts of the IC network where 5-car trains run. It's already been done in some places - single Pacers and Sprinters on Manchester to Blackpool have given way to long, comfortably-laid-out 6-car 331 formations with tables for laptops and families. That is how to do it.
Exactly this. Where is that like button?
 

vic-rijrode

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How about 'Wantage Road'? And maybe a tramway/ light-light-rail connection? Opportunity for the return of Shannon?
It would need to have the motion enclosed so as not to impose danger on the horses it would be passing on the way into Wantage though.
 
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Fleetwood was/is an ‘advanced* proposal’ in that a business case was already funded and in preparation, therefore it didn’t get any Restoring your railway cash. When the business case is done, then expect some news. Personally, I don’t think it will have a good case, but I haven’t seen it.

* advanced meaning more advanced than, essentially, no formal business case work having been done.

The SOBC (Strategic Outline Business Case) for Fleetwood has been completed according to the local press today. Little details in the press release, can't find the document anywhere, but it's moving straight onto the next phase of detailed engineering design, forecasting/modelling demand etc.
 
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It won’t be unless someone approves the cash for that next stage, and I don’t believe that has happened.

That's not what the press release says on Lancs CC website. Unfortunately, I'm struggling with copy and paste due to an ancient phone!
 

zwk500

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That's not what the press release says on Lancs CC website. Unfortunately, I'm struggling with copy and paste due to an ancient phone!

Here it is: https://www.lancashire.gov.uk/news/details/?Id=PR21/0134
The study will now progress to the next stage, which will involve detailed engineering and design, in depth forecasting and modelling of future demands, and a more detailed value for money analysis. A single preferred option for delivery will also be identified.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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The £0.5B allocated to restoring your railway fund isn't going to buy much with this one estimated at

The study estimated the costs of the three options, ranging from £121m to £251m depending on the mode, form of electrification and frequency of service.
for 5 miles. Like to see where all the money is going on this one this ought to be less than Okehampton for trackwork.
 

zwk500

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The £0.5B allocated to restoring your railway fund isn't going to buy much with this one estimated at


for 5 miles. Like to see where all the money is going on this one this ought to be less than Okehampton for trackwork.
Given that the cost estimates include things like electrification and frequency, I'd say the figures quoted included things like rolling stock procurement as well. But the trackwork at Fleetwood won't be cheap, as it'll need to be taken back to the subgrade and laid from scratch. Does anybody know if the junction is still present or if it will need a signalling change as well?
 

ABB125

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Given that the cost estimates include things like electrification and frequency, I'd say the figures quoted included things like rolling stock procurement as well. But the trackwork at Fleetwood won't be cheap, as it'll need to be taken back to the subgrade and laid from scratch. Does anybody know if the junction is still present or if it will need a signalling change as well?
I think the junction (assuming you mean the one where the Fleetwood line leaves the Blackpool line) was removed when the Blackpool line was upgraded a few years ago.
 

The Ham

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The thing you're missing in your comparison with Japan is *where* people live.

In Japan over 110 million live in urban areas, 10 million in rural.

In the UK it's 55 million in urban areas and 10 million rural. (Source: Statista.com).

If you've got more people living in cities, then they are more likely to use rail - because the population density is higher, space is restricted, and often journeys are shorter.

However, rural means any settlement with a population of up to 10,000 (and probably a significant number of those who live in rural areas live in places with over 5,000). Whilst not all their travel could be by rail there's still going to be some for whom rail is an option for a significant amount of their travel.

As an example I live somewhere (population circa 9,000) where it takes at most 30 minutes to get to the train station (and that's to some really out of the village boundary dwellings) with the vast majority being within 15 minutes of the station. That sees at least 2tph of typically 8+ coaches (with peak hour additions), now it helps that it's within an hour of London, however a significant flow is to the two nearby towns.

Clearly we fall within the 10 million (actually we make up part of the 5 million who live in rural towns which is 1/2 of the 10 million rural population) however it does show that rail can serve areas which are classed as rural, yes not as well as urban areas, but you can't write us all off as not being able to use rail as we live at least a mile from our nearest neighbour and 5 miles from a bus stop (those make up about 500,000 of those 10 million).
 
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