Road pricing back on the agenda to replace loss of fuel and vehicle excise duty due to electric vehicles?

[The Ham]

Smart meters and smart chargers could be used to identify when EVs are being charged and hence attract a higher tariff accordingly. The road footprint of EVs is the same as ICE vehicles in respect of congestion, and by most accounts total lifetime environmental impact of EVs is not much different once manufacture and scrappage are also included in the equation. And if the aim is to reduce personal vehicle travel generally, the tax revenue gap will still need to be plugged - higher taxes on other forms of travel perhaps? Such as diesels running under the wires...

With rail there needs to be a balance, as even with the high emissions from diesel trains the overall railway emissions are comparable to that of EV's on a per passenger per km basis.

Whilst that doesn't mean that we should accept diesel trains long term, we're probably talking about at least 5 years out before milage charges are likely to exist and hopefully there'll be some noticeable reductions in diesel use in that timeframe (not least the Avanti replacements for the 221's and the EMR replacement of the 222's and extra electric rolling stock). If we could get a bit more electrification as well, then all the better.

If we're trying to plug the gap then chances are air travel will also see extra charges.

However as I've already highlighted where overall milage is likely to fall due to WFH or could start to get difficult to match previous years tax incomes.

I suspect that the start of milage charging could be applied to all vehicles at a fairly low rate (2p per mile) and as ICE use falls the rate increases to offset the loss of fuel duty.

It would ensure that EV's were always the cheapest way to get about, but the costs would grow slowly (for example growing from an average of 2p in 2025, then increasing 1p per mile per year to 7p in 2030 and then increasing 1.5p per year to 15.5p in 2035) so that the impact on use wouldn't be so great.

If it costs you £200, £300, £400, £500, £600, £700 £950, £1,100, £1,250, £1,400 and £1,500 then for each year you may well be inclined to reduce your use a little and be more willing to switch from an ICE to EV (especially if fuel duty starts to rise again too) however each extra increase isn't so much that it's likely to cause significant impact to most people.

In reality chances are for most who can swap to an EV there'll be some years where they make significant savings over the current costs for using an ICE.

 

[biko]

Using smart meters to pay a different price for one use of electricity than another is not logical to most people and I agree with the previous posters that it would lead too easily to avoidance. Smart meters are much better suited to apply different tariffs based on the availability of electricity, which will become an important topic in the coming years.

I researched this topic earlier in the year and my conclusion was that the best system would be a basic mileage-based charge preferably based on emissions category and weight of the vehicle supplemented by targeted congestion charges only in congested areas and tolling on main roads. The mileage-based charge can be implemented in multiple ways including just checking the meter once a year with the MOT or by just sending a letter with a request once a year. For those that do not care about privacy to the same extent, the mileage could be billed automatically each month.

The congestion charges and tolls would be time-dependent to really reduce congestion and thus boost public support. The billing could happen with ANPR or a tag as they have in France. A invoice is sent each month with a clear overview of the cost making sure people realise the cost.

This combination makes sure people in remote areas without alternative only pay the basic mileage cost, while people travelling into a big city in the peak hours pay much more. To increase acceptability, the public transport provision should be improved around the implementation. For people without an alternative, discounts could be given, such as disabled people and residents on a low-income. Actually very similar to British railcards.

 

[edwin_m]

With rail there needs to be a balance, as even with the high emissions from diesel trains the overall railway emissions are comparable to that of EV's on a per passenger per km basis.

Does that comparison include tyre particulates?

Using smart meters to pay a different price for one use of electricity than another is not logical to most people and I agree with the previous posters that it would lead too easily to avoidance. Smart meters are much better suited to apply different tariffs based on the availability of electricity, which will become an important topic in the coming years.

I researched this topic earlier in the year and my conclusion was that the best system would be a basic mileage-based charge preferably based on emissions category and weight of the vehicle supplemented by targeted congestion charges only in congested areas and tolling on main roads. The mileage-based charge can be implemented in multiple ways including just checking the meter once a year with the MOT or by just sending a letter with a request once a year. For those that do not care about privacy to the same extent, the mileage could be billed automatically each month.

The congestion charges and tolls would be time-dependent to really reduce congestion and thus boost public support. The billing could happen with ANPR or a tag as they have in France. A invoice is sent each month with a clear overview of the cost making sure people realise the cost.

This combination makes sure people in remote areas without alternative only pay the basic mileage cost, while people travelling into a big city in the peak hours pay much more. To increase acceptability, the public transport provision should be improved around the implementation. For people without an alternative, discounts could be given, such as disabled people and residents on a low-income. Actually very similar to British railcards.

I think that makes a lot of sense. No nationwide fitment of black boxes, and ANPR only needed in areas subject to congestion charge.

I believe schemes that vary the charge dynamically according to place and time are too complicated for their own good. Nobody is going to abandon their journey part way because it's starting to cost more than they originally thought - people need a pretty good idea of the cost when choosing whether and how to travel. A simple system of fixed charges within certain areas and time limits gives that predictability and could be built into online journey planners and satnavs.

 

[biko]

I believe schemes that vary the charge dynamically according to place and time are too complicated for their own good. Nobody is going to abandon their journey part way because it's starting to cost more than they originally thought - people need a pretty good idea of the cost when choosing whether and how to travel. A simple system of fixed charges within certain areas and time limits gives that predictability and could be built into online journey planners and satnavs.

For the best results and also for acceptance, I would suggest a charge that is dependent on time, but the prices should be known up-front. Every few months, the operator can then update the charges to make sure no congestion occurs. Highly dynamic prices based on observed traffic volumes is indeed not a good idea as people have no idea what to expect.

 

[AM9]

Does that comparison include tyre particulates?

I think that makes a lot of sense. No nationwide fitment of black boxes, and ANPR only needed in areas subject to congestion charge.

I believe schemes that vary the charge dynamically according to place and time are too complicated for their own good. Nobody is going to abandon their journey part way because it's starting to cost more than they originally thought - people need a pretty good idea of the cost when choosing whether and how to travel. A simple system of fixed charges within certain areas and time limits gives that predictability and could be built into online journey planners and satnavs.

ANPR is available in many more areas than those with congestion charges. Take my town, St Albans which has a population of about 150,000, but the city part of the town has about 1/3 of that number. The city part is ringed by ANPR cameras on all main roads, so it would be easy to manage the traffic with cost (dis)incentives for driving into that monitored zone. A tag, similar to the type previously used on the QE Thames crossing for a number of years could be used to warn drivers that they are entering a chargeable zone and being charged.
I'm not sure who controls those cameras, (maybe @Bald Rick knows) but whoever it is could be used to add what is a currently unmanaged traffic problem into a road pricing solution with mostly back-office investment. I've never really noticed similar cameras surrounding other like-sized road systems but I'm sure that they exist.

 

[Bald Rick]

ANPR is available in many more areas than those with congestion charges. Take my town, St Albans which has a population of about 150,000, but the city part of the town has about 1/3 of that number. The city part is ringed by ANPR cameras on all main roads, so it would be easy to manage the traffic with cost (dis)incentives for driving into that monitored zone. A tag, similar to the type previously used on the QE Thames crossing for a number of years could be used to warn drivers that they are entering a chargeable zone and being charged.
I'm not sure who controls those cameras, (maybe @Bald Rick knows) but whoever it is could be used to add what is a currently unmanaged traffic problem into a road pricing solution with mostly back-office investment. I've never really noticed similar cameras surrounding other like-sized road systems but I'm sure that they exist.

Not 100% sure but I think the ANPR on public highways is the responsibility of the highways authority (county council), but provides info to the Constabulary. I know of cases where the police have stopped vehicles very shortly after passing a highways ANPR as a direct result of info received from them. There is, of course, loads of private ANPR as well, as anything NR who has had a parking ticket on private land in the last few years will confirm. Considering putting some up on my road to find out who it is that’s doing the fly tipping.

 

[edwin_m]

ANPR is available in many more areas than those with congestion charges.

I'm expecting that congestion charges would be extended to many more areas as part of this suggestion, in fact probably to most towns where there is a congestion issue and preferably a public transport option and/or P&R sites outside the charging zone. That does raise the question of how to treat people who live within the zone and would not be caught at the boundary when driving elsewhere within it. For practical reasons they might need to have an exemption when doing this within their own zones.

 

[ainsworth74]

Agree that if you have a complete cliff edge on prices for enough people though, that will be a very difficult sell at the ballot box

Of course the decision will become either, what do you cut to make up for the loss of revenue from fuel duty or what tax do you either increase or introduce to replace the income from fuel duty? We can't just go with the "change nothing" option so something is going to have to be sold at the ballot box!

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm expecting that congestion charges would be extended to many more areas as part of this suggestion, in fact probably to most towns where there is a congestion issue and preferably a public transport option and/or P&R sites outside the charging zone. That does raise the question of how to treat people who live within the zone and would not be caught at the boundary when driving elsewhere within it. For practical reasons they might need to have an exemption when doing this within their own zones.

Exceptions could be quite difficult. Taking St Albans (again, sorry), a significant cause of peak traffic across the city is schools traffic. A majority of this is within the city itself. Exceptions for people who live in the city wouldn’t help.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Exceptions could be quite difficult. Taking St Albans (again, sorry), a significant cause of peak traffic across the city is schools traffic. A majority of this is within the city itself. Exceptions for people who live in the city wouldn’t help.

In any case you do want to encourage people not to drive in a congestion charge zone whether they happen to live there or not. The only exception I can see you wanting to give there is for journeys that are directly out of the zone (or back into it) by the shortest route.

 

[The Ham]

Does that comparison include tyre particulates?

Without tyres rail is a bit worse, with tyres it's closer, but when you look at whole life emissions rail wins out.

The main point thought is that EV's are as good as that they can get, whilst rail had scope to improve further through more electrification, more bimodals, even the potential (if its greener) for Hydrogen to help as well.

 

[Bald Rick]

The main point thought is that EV's are as good as that they can get

Not so, as battery efficiency and manufacturing efficiency improves, whole life emissions of EVs will improve. Indeed it has done so considerably - compare the whole life emissions of a milk float to a Tesla!

 

[ABB125]

Not so, as battery efficiency and manufacturing efficiency improves, whole life emissions of EVs will improve. Indeed it has done so considerably - compare the whole life emissions of a milk float to a Tesla!

Mmmmmmm, there's an idea: a Tesla milk float!
(Don't tell Elon Musk)

 

[The Ham]

Not so, as battery efficiency and manufacturing efficiency improves, whole life emissions of EVs will improve. Indeed it has done so considerably - compare the whole life emissions of a milk float to a Tesla!

I was referring to milage use as EV's being as good as they get (i.e. excluding construction) when looking at being comparable, with whole life costs (including infrastructure emissions) included rail is much better.

Battery efficiencies are likely to improve a little, likewise manufacturing, however it's likely that the emissions from construction of the OHLE equipment are likely to improve too.

It still comes back to the point that there's a lot of diesels on the rail network which could be removed fairly easily (in fact the 221's at Avanti and 222's at EMR are already planned to become EMU's/bimodals). There's probably several types where up to 50 miles of inner wire DMU running already happens and deepening on how much the gap in the wires is it may be very worth building.

For instance the North Downs Line, which is programmed to be 3tph, should be a fairly sensible infill project (I understand why that it's not so straightforwards reality due to being 3rd rail currently). However there's likely to be others, for instance get bimodals for XC as well as Chiltern and wire up key lines around Birmingham for metro services to be EMU and you could cut diesel use a fair amount with limited infrastructure.

Repeat for other locations, such as some more wires around Manchester, Bristol, Leeds, etc. as well as removing diesel Islands associated with services which run into London and otherwise would be pockets of DMU's and diesel use could be reduced fairly rapidly.

Yes such schemes are going to be harder than those done to date and are likely to get more complex as we work or way through them. However it comes back to that we have a net zero goal. That's not a as low as we can do, but we need to get to zero, even small amounts of reductions are going to make it easier to reach.

Even if we reduce, by not having personal cars for a tiny fraction of people and many more walking, cycling and using public transport a lot more than they currently do then the need for expensive carbon capture is reduced.

Yes that's going to negatively impact taxes from motoring, however if that's going to save millions of even billions a year in carbon capture costs (who's going to pay that if not the government? as few are going to opt to say I'm creating a lot of CO2 so I'll pay for some) or may well be worth doing.

 

[ainsworth74]

(in fact the 221's at Avanti and 222's at EMR are already planned to become EMU's/bimodals)

They are?

 

[Domh245]

They are?

They're being replaced by bi-modes/EMUs, as opposed to being converted

 

[ainsworth74]

Ah gotcha

 

[philthetube]

Get rid of VED entirely. Plenty of money already taken in VAT. You buy a £50k car you pay £7k more than someone buying a £15k car.

It's crazy that someone who does 2,000 miles a year - say a 20 mile return twice a week - pays the same in VED as someone doing 50,000 miles a year.

I'd like to see a removal of VED and have car charges based on two elements
1) The pollution caused (so petrol tax, and tax on the electric grid based on the pollution caused, including the externalities)
2) The road use

The size of the vehicle should come into the calculation as well.

 

[miami]

On a slightly related point, presumably if a learner learns on an EV it counts as an automatic so they aren't able to drive a manual IC car in future. If so, families with teenagers might be less willing to go electric for that reason.

Interesting.

UK learner passes first driving test in electric car | RED Driving School

RED Driving School, the UK’s largest driving school, is celebrating after one of its pupils became the first UK learner to pass a driving test in an electric car. Navdeep Singh, 17, of Hull passed his driving test last Saturday in a Vauxhall Ampera, the UK's first long-distance electric car...

www.reddrivingschool.com

Does an electric car count as an automatic (as it doesn't have a gearbox)

The size of the vehicle should come into the calculation as well.

Total footprint, sure. For reference:
Smart ForTwo: 2.74m * 1.66m = 4.5m^2
Tesla Model 3: 4.69m * 1.85m = 8.68m^2
Range Rover: 4.80m * 2.87, = 13.79m^2

Imagine we charged based on damage to road caused by axel weight. Lorries would be priced off the road entirely!

When moving the room required is more than the physical dimensions though:

At 0mph, a 2.5m long car occupies its own space 2.5m. A 5m car occupies 5m - 100% more
At 30mph a 2.5m long car occupies its own space and the 2 seconds in front of it, about 29m. At 30mph an 5m car occupies about 32m - 10% more
At 60mph a 2.5m long car occupies its own space and the 2 seconds in front of it, about 56m. At 30mph an 5m car occupies about 58.5m - 4% more

 

[philthetube]

and when parked, or a wide one on country roads.

 

[37424]

Interesting.

UK learner passes first driving test in electric car | RED Driving School

RED Driving School, the UK’s largest driving school, is celebrating after one of its pupils became the first UK learner to pass a driving test in an electric car. Navdeep Singh, 17, of Hull passed his driving test last Saturday in a Vauxhall Ampera, the UK's first long-distance electric car...

www.reddrivingschool.com

Does an electric car count as an automatic (as it doesn't have a gearbox)

I would expect so but does it really matter In ten years time virtually all cars are going to be automatic anyway, only the petrol heads might still want an old manual. and do we really need a seperate test for a manual an experienced auto driver ought to be able to pick it up fairly quickly if needed. I went Auto a couple of years ago and now wonder why I spent 38 years driving a manual, and my employer has just bought Auto Diesel Delivery vans.

I've been in a couple of electric cars and they are fantastic, yes they are still too expensive but the price will come down to be more comparable with Petrol/Diesel cars in the next few years. I hope we don't go down the road pricing route but I expect it is highly likely.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Manuals will be abolished (as new vehicles) by 2030, as you don't need a manual gearbox for an electric car, and the sort of hybrids that will still be allowed are likely to have electric transmission.

I bought a new car in July and I think it is the last manual I am likely to own.

 

[miami]

My first car was 11 years old when I started driving.

If cheap to insure first cars like old Micras and citreon c1s are still being sold in 2030, they'll still be roadworthy in 2040. They'll still be sold in 2030 if they are cheaper than the cheapest electric vehicle. A Dacia Sandero has a list price of £8k, cheapest electric cars I can find (say a Smart ForTwo or Skoda CITIGOe) are about £22k.

Electrics aren't automatics - they don't have a gearbox, I can't find out if there's a loophole.

If there's a collapse in electric car prices in the next 10 years I'd be very happy, but I'd be surprised. I'd also be surprised if the 2030 date stays.

 

[Domh245]

Electrics aren't automatics - they don't have a gearbox, I can't find out if there's a loophole.

They do have a gearbox, just it tends to be a single speed unit. Arguing about whether they count as automatic or not because they don't have a gearbox in the conventional sense is splitting hairs. Passing a test in an electric car quite clearly only qualifies you for an automatic transmission license - they've got 2 pedals and apart from selecting PR(n)D there's no other sort of gear control. Hell, many EVs will creep forward if you don't have your foot on the brake, exactly like an automatic transmission car

 

[Bletchleyite]

They do have a gearbox, just it tends to be a single speed unit. Arguing about whether they count as automatic or not because they don't have a gearbox in the conventional sense is splitting hairs. Passing a test in an electric car quite clearly only qualifies you for an automatic transmission license - they've got 2 pedals and apart from selecting PR(n)D there's no other sort of gear control. Hell, many EVs will creep forward if you don't have your foot on the brake, exactly like an automatic transmission car

It's really more about whether there's a clutch and manual gearchange. Do "flappy paddle" boxes count as automatic?

 

[miami]

It's really more about whether there's a clutch and manual gearchange. Do "flappy paddle" boxes count as automatic?

Managed to find what looks like the correct legislation, this definition is used in a few places

vehicle with automatic transmission” means a class of vehicle in which either—
(a) the driver is not provided with any means whereby he may vary the gear ratio between the engine and the road wheels independently of the accelerator and the brakes, or
(b) he is provided with such means but they do not include a clutch pedal or lever which he may operate manually,

Which would mean both electric and flappy paddles are automatic for the purposes of licensing.

 

[Domh245]

It's really more about whether there's a clutch and manual gearchange. Do "flappy paddle" boxes count as automatic?

I wouldn't think so, like you say a manual is only a manual if it's got a clutch pedal and gear selection lever. A bit more digging turned this up:

Interpretation​

2. In this Order—

(a)“driving test” means a test corresponding to the practical test of driving skills and behaviour prescribed under section 89 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 as part of the test of competence to drive;

(b)“vehicle with automatic transmission” means a vehicle in which either—

(i)the driver is not provided with any means whereby he may vary the gear ratio between the engine and the road wheels independently of the accelerator and the brakes, or

(ii)he is provided with such means but they do not include a clutch pedal or lever which he may operate manually,

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect (ii) is intended to cover the fact that most automatics give you the option of setting the maximum gear it won't change past, i.e. the 1, 2 and 3 positions on the lever, but it would indeed seem to confirm "flappy paddles" as being automatic in the eyes of the law, even if that wasn't intentional as the law predates their existence.

 

[AM9]

If cheap to insure first cars like old Micras and citreon c1s are still being sold in 2030, they'll still be roadworthy in 2040. They'll still be sold in 2030 if they are cheaper than the cheapest electric vehicle. A Dacia Sandero has a list price of £8k, cheapest electric cars I can find (say a Smart ForTwo or Skoda CITIGOe) are about £22k.

They will not be available new in/after 2030 if the law prevents them from being sold. I suspect that their might be some legislation to prevent dealers 'buying' cars themselves and parking them in airfields to sell to petrolheads over an extended period of time.

Electrics aren't automatics - they don't have a gearbox, I can't find out if there's a loophole.

In terms of driving ability, EVs are of the same order that automatic transmission vehicles are. So unless somebody can demonstrate that a vehicle with a manual transmission doesn't require any more dexterity than an EV/automatic,there's unlikely to be any loopholes.

If there's a collapse in electric car prices in the next 10 years I'd be very happy, but I'd be surprised. I'd also be surprised if the 2030 date stays.

There clearly will be a significant fall in EV prices in the next 9 years, but there will also be a gradual rise in the cost of both acquiring ICE and owning engined cars. As has been mentioned above, their support networks will thin out, including fuelling points, maintenance, spares, and probably insurance. Then there are the 'nudge policies' that the government of the day will need to introduce if there's enough motorist resistance to change to jeopardise the 2050 carbon net zero commitment. By 2040, I suspect that trying to get effective use out of a CO2 creating car will become quite difficult, especially in urban and suburban areas with bans that will be driven by public rejection of unnecessary pollution.

 

[JohnMcL7]

I suspect (ii) is intended to cover the fact that most automatics give you the option of setting the maximum gear it won't change past, i.e. the 1, 2 and 3 positions on the lever, but it would indeed seem to confirm "flappy paddles" as being automatic in the eyes of the law, even if that wasn't intentional as the law predates their existence.

Are there many cars with paddle shifters that aren't automatics? Every standard car I've seen with the paddle shifters is an automatic and looking up some of the high end road sports cars with paddle shifters, they are still automatics and the car can change gear itself.