Roadworks, roadworks all around and not a workman to see

[Justin Smith]

I am sure we are all sick to death of roadworks, temporary traffic lights, and, worst of all, road closures.
Temporary lights are a bane of motorists' lives, particularly the modern proliferation of multi way lights which take forever to change. And why do they often have lights for roadworks which take up no more room than a legally parked vehicle ! We cannot do much about all that, it's just the relentless march of H&S overkill, but there may be something.....
The worst of the frustration is, of course, being held up when nobody is even working on the site, and that is more often the case than not.
I have been doing a bit of research on all of this and it seems to me the problem is the way the licence system (for a road closure) works. It costs little more for a long licence than for a short one.
This is madness.
Surely the licences should be charged by the day, and at a rate high enough to motivate the utility company to get the job done ASAP ?
I accept the extra cost would put up bills slightly, but it's just tax really so any money would at least be going into public coffers.
The real benefit would be less time wasted by literally millions of motorists, which, at even just the minimum wage rate, must be Billions of pounds a year.

Is it worth starting a petition to put before parliament ?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@Justin Smith. Quality rant, my friend. If only someone would re-introduce the one-time "Cones Hotline"?!

 

[John Webb]

Two things about road works:
1. Temporary traffic lights: Most are capable of being run in 'sensing' mode or in 'timed' mode - often, it seems, they are switched to the latter mode rather than the former mode where their traffic detectors would respond to the traffic flow better, particularly when traffic is light.
2. On a few occasions I have enquired about seemingly 'deserted' roadworks and it has transpired that the company involved has found that replacement of a greater length of sewer/cable or whatever is needed than first thought and they are 'waiting for parts'. Perhaps a consequence of the general move in industry to 'just in time' deliveries and the bean-counters' dislike of expensive store stocks?

 

[MotCO]

2. On a few occasions I have enquired about seemingly 'deserted' roadworks and it has transpired that the company involved has found that replacement of a greater length of sewer/cable or whatever is needed than first thought and they are 'waiting for parts'. Perhaps a consequence of the general move in industry to 'just in time' deliveries and the bean-counters' dislike of expensive store stocks?

Is there also the issue that the ground may need to settle before they can commence resurfacing?

The one that gets me (I love a good rant!) is where they are replacing central barriers. They close off a lane or impose a speed limit for mile after mile, when clearly they can only be operating on a few hundred metres at a time. Why can't the lane restriction or speed limit apply for the short area where work is being undertaken (or not - the workman are often missing)? I'm looking at the A1 just north of Peterborough - the speed restriction lasts for probably more than 5 miles, even where the barrier has clearly been replaced!

 

[Ken H]

Temporary traffic lights and cones etc are rented from a different company from the company actually doing the work. So the actual work may end early but the traffic lights stay till the eschduled removal date/time. Often over a weekend. Maybe thats why there are often empty coned off areas protected by lights.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The one that gets me (I love a good rant!) is where they are replacing central barriers. They close off a lane or impose a speed limit for mile after mile, when clearly they can only be operating on a few hundred metres at a time. Why can't the lane restriction or speed limit apply for the short area where work is being undertaken..

Possibly because some drivers would continue along in the closed lane until changing lanes at the very last moment (or not as the case may be, and ploughing into the roadworks); have seen a fair few motorway police type programmes where HGV drivers have completely ignored the (red) X "lane closed" signs on overhead gantries, on the basis that they see what's up ahead.

 

[david1212]

If I had time I could write a booklet.

The standard working seems to be something like 8:00 - 9:00 to around 15:00 with fits with 8 hours door-to-door from the depot.

Back 5-6 years ago a cross-roads of a busy single carriageway A-road and a B-road was remodelled. It took something like 10 or 12 weeks. Temporary traffic lights controlling a single flow in each direction. The peak and weekend queues on the A-road were long at 15+ minutes. Children were late to school and back home, not as simile as just starting earlier in the morning as the operators used one vehicle for two runs. There was no decent diversion for the A-road so either queue or join many others around lanes and villages.
The initial work was at the sides of the existing roads making foundations to move the carriageway there to make space for turning lanes in the middle. When no work going on absolutely no reason for traffic lights as existing road totally intact and unchanged.
At time the new construction would have to harden / settle but I'm sure with two shifts 5 days per week and one shift weekends some of the time the total job could have been done in a fraction of the time.

Another example right now is near to work. A hole in the pavement with 2-way lights. When no actual work in progress remove the lights. There is a footpath the other side. Perhaps 400m away the footpath is closed one side with no control, just notices to use the other footpath so that removes any reason where the 2-way lights remain for allowing pedestrians to walk in the road. If this was at junction no doubt then 3 / 4 way lights.

In the nearby large town two sets of cross-road traffic lights have been replaced. One set a few years ago and the other set last year. Each time at least 8 weeks. The work at most remove existing lights and poles, install new poles and lights, dig trench or 'mole' under roads, remove old cables ( or just abandon ), install new cables. Install new control even new control box. How does that take 8+ weeks ???

While started early 2020 and paused for I recall at least 3 months replacing a footbridge over a dual carriageway took over a year.

 

[Justin Smith]

I have done quite a bit of research on this and basically the utility companies often make no particular effort to get a job finished, frequently this is to the exasperation of the council as they are getting it in the ear from their voters. As an aside I had it hinted to me that the utility companies often use the "emergency job" get out to force a road closure through even when the council are sometimes sceptical about if it even is an emergency!
The utility companies often employ different gangs to shut the road and put up "traffic management", they another to dig the hole, sometimes yet another to actually do the job, yet another to fill it in again, and another still to come back and remove the "traffic management" and finally reopen the road. Thus explaining why it is not uncommon to see a road still closed when the job has actually been fully completed!
They employ that totally inefficient system (as regards how long the road is closed) because it's easier and cheaper for them. Well it shouldn't be, the inconvenienced motorists time should be accounted for, and the licence system changed to discourage roads being shut for any longer than absolutely necessary. And that should also include "emergency repairs", they can circumvent the licence system for an emergency closure (if it is an emergency) but they still have to pay for it by the day, and at a sufficient amount to "motivate" them....

 

[david1212]

Another set of temporary 2-way lights have appeared near work today for no obvious reason i.e. road and pavement intact so now 2 sets less than a mile apart. By the set where there was a hole in the pavement that has been filled in today, just needs a skim of tarmac.

@Justin Smith supports my thought that a different team if not a different contractor is responsible for the "traffic management" to that doing the work. Hence why lights are set up in advance of work, not removed immediately and if the road could be open lights are not moved aside when work for the day finishes.

 

[bramling]

I am sure we are all sick to death of roadworks, temporary traffic lights, and, worst of all, road closures.
Temporary lights are a bane of motorists' lives, particularly the modern proliferation of multi way lights which take forever to change. And why do they often have lights for roadworks which take up no more room than a legally parked vehicle ! We cannot do much about all that, it's just the relentless march of H&S overkill, but there may be something.....
The worst of the frustration is, of course, being held up when nobody is even working on the site, and that is more often the case than not.
I have been doing a bit of research on all of this and it seems to me the problem is the way the licence system (for a road closure) works. It costs little more for a long licence than for a short one.
This is madness.
Surely the licences should be charged by the day, and at a rate high enough to motivate the utility company to get the job done ASAP ?
I accept the extra cost would put up bills slightly, but it's just tax really so any money would at least be going into public coffers.
The real benefit would be less time wasted by literally millions of motorists, which, at even just the minimum wage rate, must be Billions of pounds a year.

Is it worth starting a petition to put before parliament ?

There certainly seem to be a lot of roadworks at the moment. Is this merely a false impression, or is there really a lot more work going on? Either way I share the OP‘s frustration.

 

[High Dyke]

The railway is also affected by traffic management issues. Two recent examples are (a) road closure required to put a road rail vehicle onto the track for maintenance work, but nobody booked the contractor to turn up and close the road - wasted two hours work just waiting for person with cones and signs to turn up, for something that lasted ten minutes; (b) road closure booked but the contractor failed to show up despite the fact work taking place was affecting the level crossing. These are just two examples. Others include contractor correctly coning off the part of road as booked, but Network Rail working on the opposite side of the road.

 

[Strathclyder]

There certainly seem to be a lot of roadworks at the moment. Is this merely a false impression, or is there really a lot more work going on? Either way I share the OP‘s frustration.

Certainly in my area, there seems to be. Whether that is indeed a false impression or not, they're driving me up the wall even as a bus passenger whenever they do crop up.

The only one I can understand it taking a long time is extensive strengthening works on the M8's Woodside Viaduct (which has been reduced to two open lanes in each direction since March 2021) in the Cowcaddens area necessitating a diversion of one of my local bus routes due to the section of Maryhill Road it is usually routed along obviously being shut. Said work will last until the end of 2024 and the temporary repairs will cost upwards of £100m. A virtual repeat of the Kingston Bridge saga, longtime sufferers users of the M8 will no doubt immediately conclude.

 

[HOOVER29]

The companies that win the contracts should be fined if the job isn’t completed & in a satisfactory manner by a certain time!
That way they will get their finger out!

Been digging up the A5 near Tamworth for a fair few weeks now replacing the central reservation barrier & installing new lights.
Not once seen anyone working.

Just dragging it out

 

[stuu]

This is the inevitable consequence of political decisions:
1: a tax system which actively incentivises companies to lease equipment rather than own it
2: the decimation of local authorities and especially non-statutory services - they don't have the manpower to monitor this any more, if they ever did.
3. The powers given to utilities when they were privatised - liabilities were deliberately limited for things like street works to make them more attractive to investors

You reap what you sow

 

[Justin Smith]

There certainly seem to be a lot of roadworks at the moment. Is this merely a false impression, or is there really a lot more work going on? Either way I share the OP‘s frustration.

To be fair I think there are more roadworks, mainly the installation of fibre etc.
BUT, that does not excuse the system being totally wrong and roads being shut (or traffic light controlled) far longer than they need to be because their is minimal incentive for the utility companies to complete the job ASAP.

And that's before you get into if half of this stuff is even needed. A road round the corner from my house had a set of road works which took up no more room than a legally parked car, certainly a legally parked van, yet they had a set of traffic lights on it. And it wasn't even on a band ! TBH many drivers just drove straight through it, that's how unnecessary it was.....
The answer from the council about that particular farce was :

I understand the thinking behind the point about works which take up no less space than a legally parked vehicle, but the Safety at Streetworks Code of Practice makes it quite clear that on roadworks where 6.75m cannot be maintained for 2-way traffic, traffic management must be used.

H&S over kill writ large.

This is the inevitable consequence of political decisions:
1: a tax system which actively incentivises companies to lease equipment rather than own it
2: the decimation of local authorities and especially non-statutory services - they don't have the manpower to monitor this any more, if they ever did.
3. The powers given to utilities when they were privatised - liabilities were deliberately limited for things like street works to make them more attractive to investors

You reap what you sow

To be honest I don't think any of that is particularly significant,it is far more that the licence system for road closures does not motivate the utility companies to get the road open ASAP.
But the motorists time has never been of any value anyway, we've all been stuck in motorway tailbacks for accidents etc that, to me, appeared to be unnecessary, this anecdote being one of the best examples :

I can remember getting in a huge M1 tail back just north of Tinsley viaduct. When we got to the front it was down to one lane, of four don't forget, so that explained it.
BUT ! There was no need for only one lane to be open. A caravan had been smashed up by a truck and its wreckage sprawled over road, I don't see how anyone could even have been injured, but if they had they'd long ago been taken to hospital. The second lane out had a small piece of ex caravan poking into its right hand side by a small amount, in fact it was so small one bloke could have moved it over (only about two feet ! ) and the capacity of the road doubled. But whether it was excessive Health & Safety zeal or because nobody could be arsed it was inexcusable.
If 3000 vehicles with an average occupancy of 1.5 were delayed by one hour that's 4,500 hours in total, and at the national minimum wage that's £45,000, every hour...

The last sentence is relevant for the purposes of this thread. If it is actually costing people money to keep the road closed they'd get it open quicker....

The companies that win the contracts should be fined if the job isn’t completed & in a satisfactory manner by a certain time!
That way they will get their finger out!
Been digging up the A5 near Tamworth for a fair few weeks now replacing the central reservation barrier & installing new lights.
Not once seen anyone working.
Just dragging it out

That's more or less what charging for the road closure licence by the day (or even better by the hour....) would achieve, and without recorse to the law or threats of it.

 

[Lucan]

If you guys think things are bad now, just wait until electric vehicles really take off, requiring widescale re-inforcements and additions to underground cabling.

 

[Justin Smith]

If you guys think things are bad now, just wait until electric vehicles really take off, requiring widescale re-inforcements and additions to underground cabling.

That just makes it even more important to get in place a system which motivates untility companies to get the job done ASAP !

 

[PeterC]

I discussed this with our council cabinet member fortransport. He said that they were sceptical about many short notice 'emergency" works but the consequences of pushing back and finding that that was the one genuine one were too great

 

[HOOVER29]

If you guys think things are bad now, just wait until electric vehicles really take off, requiring widescale re-inforcements and additions to underground cabling.

Average gross weight of a suv electric vehicle is around 2.5 tonnes or around 0.5-0.8 tonnes heavier than a combustion engined version.
(Check out specifications on AutoTrader to see)

Image how much extra damage will be done when electric vehicles really take off.

It’ll be like having loaded vans everywhere
You can’t tell me that’s not going to cause damage

I’ve heard people saying that suspension systems are better designed.

Total rubbish.

If a vehicle weighs 2.5 tonnes then 2.5 tonnes is touching the road surface no matter how good the suspension set up is!

 

[Justin Smith]

I discussed this with our council cabinet member for transport. He said that they were sceptical about many short notice 'emergency" works but the consequences of pushing back and finding that that was the one genuine one were too great

I think any emergency repairs should also have to pay the cost of the proposed daily licence, though I accept the point that using "emergency works" is probably just as much about avoiding bueracratic delays etc ?

 

[jmh59]

We had the opposite years ago in Leeds - bridge work I think it was - where they cleared the cones and traffic lights to the verge when not working. Only they left the traffic lights switched on (on battery I guess) with one facing the road and stuck on red. Several of us waited until we realised we were being stupid.

 

[66701GBRF]

Is there also the issue that the ground may need to settle before they can commence resurfacing?

The one that gets me (I love a good rant!) is where they are replacing central barriers. They close off a lane or impose a speed limit for mile after mile, when clearly they can only be operating on a few hundred metres at a time. Why can't the lane restriction or speed limit apply for the short area where work is being undertaken (or not - the workman are often missing)? I'm looking at the A1 just north of Peterborough - the speed restriction lasts for probably more than 5 miles, even where the barrier has clearly been replaced!

We have been treated to that treatment over the last 14 months (thankfully finished couple of months ago). On a dual carriage way they put in narrow lanes both sides for 6 miles with a 40mph speed restriction covered by average speed cameras. As you say they only worked a couple of 100yds at a time with full road closure both ways at night. Once finished there was a little break only for the next 5 miles to be done in the same fashion. Once that was done there was another little break only for the full night road closures and temporary speed restriction (no cameras this time) to return for resurfacing of another section that was previously covered by the previous road closures!

Funny thing is, less than 10 miles down the same road there is a major road rebuild going on with a full contra-flow and the speed restriction is 50mph.

 

[Magdalia]

Average gross weight of a suv electric vehicle is around 2.5 tonnes or around 0.5-0.8 tonnes heavier than a combustion engined version.
(Check out specifications on AutoTrader to see)

Image how much extra damage will be done when electric vehicles really take off.

It’ll be like having loaded vans everywhere
You can’t tell me that’s not going to cause damage

There was an item about this recently on BBC Radio 4's More or Less.

The damage caused by electric cars being a bit heavier than combustion cars is trivial compared to the damage caused by HGVs. Anyone who has ever lived in a residential road where there is a new flow of HGV traffic, for example to access a building site, will see this very quickly.

 

[DelW]

The damage caused by electric cars being a bit heavier than combustion cars is trivial compared to the damage caused by HGVs. Anyone who has ever lived in a residential road where there is a new flow of HGV traffic, for example to access a building site, will see this very quickly.

It's generally asserted that structural wear and damage to road surfaces is roughly proportional to the fourth power of axle load. So an HGV at about 10t per axle causes wear that is orders of magnitude greater than even electric cars at about 1.25t per axle. Basically the structural wear from cars is within the rounding error of the HGV calculation.

There are some concerns regarding multi storey car parks. Many were designed back in the days when cars mostly weighed less than 1t, compared with around 1.5t- 2t typically for ICE and up to 2.5t for electric cars. Some of these car parks have suffered deterioration from waterproofing failure, de-icing salts, etc. and there are concerns that the additional regular loading could erode the remaining factor of safety.

 

[Magdalia]

There are some concerns regarding multi storey car parks. Many were designed back in the days when cars mostly weighed less than 1t, compared with around 1.5t- 2t typically for ICE and up to 2.5t for electric cars. Some of these car parks have suffered deterioration from waterproofing failure, de-icing salts, etc. and there are concerns that the additional regular loading could erode the remaining factor of safety.

Now you mention this, I remember it also being in the More or Less report. This issue can also affect some domestic car ports and garages.

And might some of those car parks be made of the sort of concrete that is at risk of falling down in some hospitals, such as Kings Lynn?

 

[DelW]

Now you mention this, I remember it also being in the More or Less report. This issue can also affect some domestic car ports and garages.

And might some of those car parks be made of the sort of concrete that is at risk of falling down in some hospitals, such as Kings Lynn?

A lot of multi storey car parks were built using precast components, so that's quite possible. AFAIK most of the ones that have failed or had to be demolished suffered from poor design or installation of connections, or from poor maintenance, but there have been cases elsewhere of the concrete mixes used in precast work turning out to be unsuitable for their intended design life.

 

[Bikeman78]

I am sure we are all sick to death of roadworks, temporary traffic lights, and, worst of all, road closures.
Temporary lights are a bane of motorists' lives, particularly the modern proliferation of multi way lights which take forever to change. And why do they often have lights for roadworks which take up no more room than a legally parked vehicle ! We cannot do much about all that, it's just the relentless march of H&S overkill, but there may be something.....
The worst of the frustration is, of course, being held up when nobody is even working on the site, and that is more often the case than not.
I have been doing a bit of research on all of this and it seems to me the problem is the way the licence system (for a road closure) works. It costs little more for a long licence than for a short one.
This is madness.
Surely the licences should be charged by the day, and at a rate high enough to motivate the utility company to get the job done ASAP ?
I accept the extra cost would put up bills slightly, but it's just tax really so any money would at least be going into public coffers.
The real benefit would be less time wasted by literally millions of motorists, which, at even just the minimum wage rate, must be Billions of pounds a year.

Is it worth starting a petition to put before parliament ?

On a related note, the number of vehicles driving around with Highway Maintenance written on the back is amazing. We should have the best road in the world. In reality, I've rarely seen the occupants of such vehicles doing anything useful. It just seems to be a licence to park badly.

 

[MotCO]

On a related note, the number of vehicles driving around with Highway Maintenance written on the back is amazing. We should have the best road in the world. In reality, I've rarely seen the occupants of such vehicles doing anything useful. It just seems to be a licence to park badly.

I've always assumed that Motorway Maintenance vehicles were superior to others by virtue of having that sign. If you are are a mere Highway Maintenance vehicle, you could only dream of that superior place reserved for Motorway Maintenance vehicles

 

[BingMan]

We had the opposite years ago in Leeds - bridge work I think it was - where they cleared the cones and traffic lights to the verge when not working. Only they left the traffic lights switched on (on battery I guess) with one facing the road and stuck on red. Several of us waited until we realised we were being stupid.

WQhat law are you breaking if you drive past a temporary traffic light at red?

 

[PeterY]

There certainly seem to be a lot of roadworks at the moment. Is this merely a false impression, or is there really a lot more work going on? Either way I share the OP‘s frustration.

In Hertfordshire, temporary lights are rife. On Monday I drove to Watford and the road was clear of temp lights, bugger me, going back an hour later, they'd appeared out of nowhere.

My biggest bug bear with them, at weekends the batteries run flat, so it's free for all.

Don't get me started on our local towpath upgrades, 10 weeks closure to do 800 yards. One man and a shovel, no doubt.