There is no victimisation in the video you posted.
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Rochford to London via Southend issues with c2c and PF
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There is no victimisation in the video you posted.
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RailUK Forums
Yes there is.
Victimise : Single someone out for cruel or unjust treatment.
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/victimize
So, there I was. Singled out. Repeatedly accused of having an invalid ticket.
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I was very calm considering I was being falsely accused of having an invalid ticket. I didn't want to have an argument with him. Why did I attempt to travel through the barriers before showing him my ticket?
When you say he wasnt rising to the argument - I see it as he wasnt being reasonable. I attempted to explain to him why my ticket was valid and he wasn't listening.
The only person who shouted was him. He was much louder than me. I was actually very nervous. I wasn't abusive at all. He was unreasonable.
Clip - please explain to me what I should have done in this situation. The more unreasonable he was, the more annoyed I was becoming, like any human being.
He didn't just let me through. There was only one barrier opening towards the platforms and a lady had her ticket rejected about 40 seconds before I passed through. He opened the abrrier to let her through, but the lady was kind enough to nod at me to pass through first.
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Haywain
Veteran Member
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No, not victimisation. That would be being singled out because of who you are, not because you have a ticket that is seen as being invalid.
He said he didn't think your ticket was valid and asked you to go to the office, wherever that was, to have the validity double checked.
He also showed concern for you by asking if you were okay as he must have thought you were behaving in an agitated way as you were shaking.
That isn't victimisation.
No. He said my ticket was invalid, multiple times.
I am glad you acknowledge that its not clear what office he is referring to. Assuming he is talking about the ticket office, that is on the other side of the barriers anyway, which makes it impossible.
No. He told me to go there so they can explain to me why my ticket is not valid.
.
No, he was taking the mickey. Shouting whats wrong with you? whats wrong with you? at me repeatedely? Thats not showing concern for someone, that's goading them.
He asked me if I was OK after he screamed something like 'C*NT' and thrusted himself at me. I wanted to avoid a violent situation, and I wasn't rising to his challenge.
Anyway, even if he said what you said (which isn't what is shown on the video), he still shouldn't be doing that after c2c assured me that all their staff had been briefed about the issue and that tickets would be accepted until c2c's Commercial Director informed me personally that the ticket was no longer valid, as that is what was discussed at the meeting between myself and c2c's then Customer Experience Manager and is described in the court settlement agreement.
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As a perfectly reasonable lay person I would that thought that the valid route from Rochford to London was by the direct route via Shenfield not by doubling back through Southend and walking between the two stations.
There were easements for travel on the LT&S route for all Southend Vic branch stations in Network Southeast days but my best efforts with Google have been unable to find any hint that these are still in place.
Islineclear3_1
Established Member
Yes I would be surprised if the route is valid via the two Southend stations (and the walk in between) considering that the train service from Victoria and Central stations are operated by two different TOC's.
I do understand though that some people will do whatever it takes to get what they want (i.e. wanting justice done) and in a way I do sympthazise with the way 321.321 was treated, however, I would have let it go and not gone through the expense of a civil claim. I do wonder if he aggravated the situation to let it get out of control. I can only hope it was all worth the hassle....
I do understand though that some people will do whatever it takes to get what they want (i.e. wanting justice done) and in a way I do sympthazise with the way 321.321 was treated, however, I would have let it go and not gone through the expense of a civil claim. I do wonder if he aggravated the situation to let it get out of control. I can only hope it was all worth the hassle....
headshot119
Established Member
Can someone else give an opinion on what exactly the Gateline Assistant says at 00:59 - 01:02 in the video, I'm struggling to work it out, but it doesn't seem like c**t to me.
I'm even less impressed having now watched the video where 319321 appears to barge past the Gateline Assistant in an attempt to get through the barrier. The Gateline Assistants voice doesn't become raised until this point, and his voice returns to normal once 319321 backs off.
I'm even less impressed having now watched the video where 319321 appears to barge past the Gateline Assistant in an attempt to get through the barrier. The Gateline Assistants voice doesn't become raised until this point, and his voice returns to normal once 319321 backs off.
I didn't barge past him, if you listen at 00:50 the barrier beeps go off and he starts walking away from me in the middle of our conversation. The barrier was not open and he was going to check the ladies ticket. Having someone turn their back on you mid-conversation is extremely rude, and I wanted to ensure that he remained close enough that my phone microphone would pick up what he would say.
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The ticket specifically says ANY PERMITTED ROUTE and you can hear me pointing this out in the video. A ticket can be restricted to a single TOC, and if the ticket said AGA ONLY then that would mean that a reasonable person would know that it was only valid on AGA. There are a great many tickets in the world which are valid on more than one route, including tickets which say things like VIA LETCHWORTH which if it is more expensive than VIA SYDNEY would mean that it is valid both VIA LETCHWORTH and VIA SYDNEY.
There were mapped routes available until 2013. There have never been any easements (except for engineering works) in any routing guide version I have checked, apart from one introduced in Februaryish last year stating that tickets from Southend Central to London are not valid via Southend Victoria, which presumably previously would have been valid under the 'no longer than three miles longer' provision.
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I am going to try to get the CCTV of the incident, but at no time did I barge at the gateline assistant or barge through the barrier. The first time the barrier was opened was the time I escaped.
I find it interesting that you are calling him an 'Assistant'. 'Bully' is a word that someone has just used in an email to me about the video.
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I am struggling to understand it too. It might have been 'can I' and originally thats what wrote down. The more I listen to it, the more I think he actually called me a rude word.
When you say about me backing off, I didn't. He walked towards the woman who needed some attention, and I followed him. There was no bodily contact between myself and any other person during this entire incident. I have had social skills training which taught me that when having a conversation with someone, usually you stand half an arm-widths away, but when you are having a confrontational conversation you stand an arm lengths away so that the confrontation is not percieved as agressive. I cannot be absolutely sure of the distances between us when I was moving, but when I first presented my ticket to him I was more than half an arm lengths away and tried to maintain that distance throughout.
UPDATE: Having listened to it again (and again), I've decided to leave it as an agressive noise or maybe a rude word in the transcript.
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The ticket specifically says ANY PERMITTED ROUTE and you can hear me pointing this out in the video. A ticket can be restricted to a single TOC, and if the ticket said AGA ONLY then that would mean that a reasonable person would know that it was only valid on AGA. There are a great many tickets in the world which are valid on more than one route, including tickets which say things like VIA LETCHWORTH which if it is more expensive than VIA SYDNEY would mean that it is valid both VIA LETCHWORTH and VIA SYDNEY.
There were mapped routes available until 2013. There have never been any easements (except for engineering works) in any routing guide version I have checked, apart from one introduced in Februaryish last year stating that tickets from Southend Central to London are not valid via Southend Victoria, which presumably previously would have been valid under the 'no longer than three miles longer' provision.
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I am going to try to get the CCTV of the incident, but at no time did I barge at the gateline assistant or barge through the barrier. The first time the barrier was opened was the time I escaped.
I find it interesting that you are calling him an 'Assistant'. 'Bully' is a word that someone has just used in an email to me about the video.
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I am struggling to understand it too. It might have been 'can I' and originally thats what wrote down. The more I listen to it, the more I think he actually called me a rude word.
When you say about me backing off, I didn't. He walked towards the woman who needed some attention, and I followed him. There was no bodily contact between myself and any other person during this entire incident. I have had social skills training which taught me that when having a conversation with someone, usually you stand half an arm-widths away, but when you are having a confrontational conversation you stand an arm lengths away so that the confrontation is not percieved as agressive. I cannot be absolutely sure of the distances between us when I was moving, but when I first presented my ticket to him I was more than half an arm lengths away and tried to maintain that distance throughout.
UPDATE: Having listened to it again (and again), I've decided to leave it as an agressive noise or maybe a rude word in the transcript.
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It's looking more and more to me like you are seeking a confrontation by any means possible.
Let's face it, you have an enormous bee in your bonnet. You have indicated previously that you intended to approach staff in what could be construed as a threatening manner. You wanted several members of staff dismissed/prosecuted, you even demanded their home address! You then complain that some members of staff have been promoted, this has nothing to do with you whatsoever.
By continuing this behaviour (some would call it a crusade) I believe that you are pushing as far as you can possibly push, in the hope that one of the staff may well lose their rag. Maybe you want to push them into saying something (not c**t, i'm 100% certain that the video does not show that language) that you can then report and get them disciplined, or when you enroach their space/push past you are hoping they will lay a finger on you, however light which you can then pass off as assault.
In summary, because your demands for several people to be sacked weren't met and because you have subsequently heard of people being promoted, you are now on a crusade to get people sacked by any means necessary.
All of this is so far removed from a ticketing dispute.
Daradino,
When i got off the train that day, all I wanted was to get home as quickly as possible, thats the reason I used c2c rather than wait for my ticket to become usable on the Greater Anglia service again.
Wanting action taken rather than nothing happen to people who do wrong may be an alien concept to you, but to me its normal.
I wouldn't describe this as a crusade, but I do want to make sure that appropriate action is taken. It is not a nice feeling sitting on a train thinking that you are going to get in to an argument about your ticket even though you know it is valid.
I didnt push anyone. I was very polite, I didnt swear, I didnt insult, I didnt do anything wrong. All I did was show him my ticket and attempt to expplain it was valid.
He was undreasonable, he was rude, and as others have said he was bullying and should have been rejected at interview stage. I do now want him to face a negative consequence to his actions, as I had to suffer the indignity of being repeatedly accused of having an invalid ticket and getting around two hours of sleep per day since the incident because I am so hurt by it.
I do also want management to face some negative consequence from failing to brief the member of staff and train him properly like they assured me they would. I feel it is wrong to lie.
I would not feel that any of these people should be sacked if they had made a reasonable mistake, a minor mistake. I do not want confrontation, but I am not afraid of it.
When i got off the train that day, all I wanted was to get home as quickly as possible, thats the reason I used c2c rather than wait for my ticket to become usable on the Greater Anglia service again.
Wanting action taken rather than nothing happen to people who do wrong may be an alien concept to you, but to me its normal.
I wouldn't describe this as a crusade, but I do want to make sure that appropriate action is taken. It is not a nice feeling sitting on a train thinking that you are going to get in to an argument about your ticket even though you know it is valid.
I didnt push anyone. I was very polite, I didnt swear, I didnt insult, I didnt do anything wrong. All I did was show him my ticket and attempt to expplain it was valid.
He was undreasonable, he was rude, and as others have said he was bullying and should have been rejected at interview stage. I do now want him to face a negative consequence to his actions, as I had to suffer the indignity of being repeatedly accused of having an invalid ticket and getting around two hours of sleep per day since the incident because I am so hurt by it.
I do also want management to face some negative consequence from failing to brief the member of staff and train him properly like they assured me they would. I feel it is wrong to lie.
I would not feel that any of these people should be sacked if they had made a reasonable mistake, a minor mistake. I do not want confrontation, but I am not afraid of it.
Let's be completely honest here, I cannot see any other post making a claim of bullying, only yours. Overall the 'others' that you refer to seem to have an agreeable view, but it isn't yours.
Seals the deal for me, and confirms my suspicions. Thanks.
And thats wrong of me because....
Islineclear3_1
Established Member
I haven't commuted on the Southend line since the days of NSE but under a specific TOC, I would have thought a ticket from Rochford to London (including travelcard) via "any permitted route" would only be valid for the specific route that the TOC runs on - i.e. Rochford to London Liverpool Street (via Shenfield), or change at Stratford for the Underground.
I didn't want to state it explicitly but as Doradino has now done so, I strongly feel this is nothing to do with having a ticket (whether it was valid or not is beside the issue) but more of a mission to pursue his (321321's) anger and sticking so rigidly to his principles for (possibly) an outdated belief.
Personally I would let sleeping dogs lie, but I guess 321321 has just let the wolves out...
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I have just read p7 of the report:
"They have advised that a Travelcard issued to start from Rochford to London Zones 1-6 can only be used on the Greater Anglia line".
You cannot get more specific than that.
321321, why don't you just let the civil case go... consider this a valuable lesson
I didn't want to state it explicitly but as Doradino has now done so, I strongly feel this is nothing to do with having a ticket (whether it was valid or not is beside the issue) but more of a mission to pursue his (321321's) anger and sticking so rigidly to his principles for (possibly) an outdated belief.
Personally I would let sleeping dogs lie, but I guess 321321 has just let the wolves out...
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I have just read p7 of the report:
"They have advised that a Travelcard issued to start from Rochford to London Zones 1-6 can only be used on the Greater Anglia line".
You cannot get more specific than that.
321321, why don't you just let the civil case go... consider this a valuable lesson
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I wouldnt get annoyed at them I would follow their instructions and if they said go to the ticket office I wouldve done just that and if that is on the otherside of the barriers I wouldve asked him to let me through to go there.
And maybe they have an excess window on the platform side - this I also wouldve asked about.
Unfortunatley I am going to nto reply anymroe as it seems to me that you are really blowing this up out of all proportion and its just going to go round in circles until you get 1 person to agree with your actions which I am struggling to think of anyone who would now given your postings and video which you claim one thing but shows that another happenned.
I understand you feel like you didnt get justice when this first reared its head but now you are purposely angling for confrontation and that is wrong.
Also you dont have to write in red to get my attention.
Shaw S Hunter
Established Member
Am I the only one that thinks this will end with C2C obtaining a restraining order against the OP banning him from their trains and stations?
CharlieSpotted
Member
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OP, having just watched the video again, it seems to me that whether the staff member was right or wrong about the validity, he was very calm in his dealings with you until he unfortunately gets frustrated at your insistence and utters/grumbles something.
I can't hear profanity in there, in English at least, and I can't hear the word you're suggesting. It's possible he's uttered something in another language. It strikes me it's also possible that he's trying to talk to someone else - the person who's trying to get through the barrier who he moves to help?
Shortly afterwards he returns to his calmer tone although he's clearly confused as to why you keep insisting and won't do the simple thing he asks and go speak to the person in the office.
He asks "what's wrong with you" because I contend that most people placed in this situation, and asked to go and clear it up with a different (more senior?) member of staff, would have done exactly that.
I can't hear profanity in there, in English at least, and I can't hear the word you're suggesting. It's possible he's uttered something in another language. It strikes me it's also possible that he's trying to talk to someone else - the person who's trying to get through the barrier who he moves to help?
Shortly afterwards he returns to his calmer tone although he's clearly confused as to why you keep insisting and won't do the simple thing he asks and go speak to the person in the office.
He asks "what's wrong with you" because I contend that most people placed in this situation, and asked to go and clear it up with a different (more senior?) member of staff, would have done exactly that.
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headshot119
Established Member
No you aren't!
I'm glad most people seem to agree with my assessment that the Gateline Assistant was rather calm in dealing with the situation.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
They can be as specific as they like but it appears to be incorrect. The National Rail planner confirms that it is valid via Southend.
MarlowDonkey
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- 4 Apr 2013
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Try, for example, Rochford to Upminster.
http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/timesandfares/RFD/UPM/tomorrow/1000/dep/tomorrow/1700/dep
You can leave Rochford at 10:04, to arrive at Victoria at 10:14. You walk to Central arriving at 10:29 in time for the 10:35 which arrives at Upminster at 11:07.
There's not much in it time wise, but alternatively you leave Rochford at 10:18, travelling to Romford arriving at 10:53 and then wait for an Overground service leaving at 11:11, to reach Upminster at 11:20
An Off Peak Day Return would cost £ 14.30, or you could buy a Travelcard for £ 22.00.
There's even a map at
http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/NreOj...eySelected=true&showSelectedJourneyOnly=false showing the valid routes.
There are a number of these walking interchanges outside of London, which can add flexibility to journeys as well as causing fare disputes. The two stations in St Albans come to mind as well as the two in Windsor.
OK, as you have asked.
You have posted a video, I presume you have posted this video for opinion but as you disagree with any viewpoint concerning it, i'm not so sure what the motive was. The majority consensus seems to be that the Gateline Assistant was fairly calm.
The problem as I see it is that you have now viewed the video over and over again, over-analysed it and are now only seeing what you want to see in order to further your action.
If this is the case, then yes it is wrong to demand that this employeed be disciplined/sacked.
What lesson am I suppsoed to have learnt?
I won the civil case. Part of the settlement was that a public apology be issued and that I was given an assurance I would not face problems such as that was videoed in the future.
Not to trust the word of a train operating company?
BTW, p7 was a long long time ago. I am going to try and upload the case particulars and the defence tonight.
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I didn't comply with his request as he had no power to order me to do so. It would have meant probably adding an extra six minutes to my journey by the time that I had gone to the other side of the station, exited the barriers there and walked around again because I was immediately heading to Southend Victoria station. I should not be inconvienienced by his ignorance. Do you not think I found it very frustrating having him not listen to me with regards to the validity of my ticket as well, and I managed not to lose it with him.
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I was very calm with dealing with the Gateline Bully too (I fail to see how he assisted in any way.
Why do you have such a vendetta against staff just trying to do their job?
You might be using a valid ticket, but you're using it on a convoluted route. It's hardly surprising that the staff haven't seen it before and are a bit confused.
He tried to get you to go to the ticket office to check the validity of your ticket. He wasn't being rude to you, he was simply trying to do his job. If you had lost it with him, then you'd have been totally in the wrong.
Well you're wrong, for the reasons stated by Indigo2 and it is correctly offered in journey planners as a valid route.
The ticket should have been accepted, then there'd be no argument!
The ticket is valid.
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They were not just trying to do their job though; they were denying a customer travel incorrectly.
The staff member was not simply confused but incorrectly stated it was not valid. Being confused and admitting you don't know is something else.
The person at the gateline can clearly be heard making incorrect statements and becoming aggressive. If gateline staff are unsure, they should let passengers through and check out the validity so they know for future reference; I know gateline staff who have confirmed this to me.
The person at the gateline was totally in the wrong regarding the video, and also appears to briefly 'lose it' at one point.
Two issues:
1) Its not a convultued route. Imagine you are me and you want to have a day out in London and visit several places. You decide that a one day travelcard is your best option. The first place you want to visit in the London Zones is Upminster, so you go to the National Rail site and you search for a journey FROM Rochford TO Upminster, and then click search. At the time of writing (1846 on Monday 20 June, EVERY JOURNEY PLAN tells you to go via Southend.
2) It is surprising that staff are not aware that it is a permitted route given that c2c's Customer Experience Manager told me that EVERY member of staff at Southend had been briefed about the issues and c2c's Commerical Director, in their public letter of apology that formed part of the court settlement said that they would learn lessons and improve their customer service training.
Validity by both routes for point to point tickets is clear if you want to spend enough time playing with the planner. I have not been able to get it to give me a return plus travel card fare however. Given the infrequent nature of the shuttle and the need for an additional change at Shenfield the route vis Southend for a journy explicitly to Upminster is perfectly reasonable
The claim is that the boundary zone 6 to Rochford segment is valid via both routes. This seems logical when point to point tickets are intervailable to FSL and LST but illogical when the nearest station in zone 6 has a single fare valid via Shenfield only. Can somebody with better knowledge of the system than me link to a map specifically for a Rochford plus zone 1 to 6 travelcard ticket?
The claim is that the boundary zone 6 to Rochford segment is valid via both routes. This seems logical when point to point tickets are intervailable to FSL and LST but illogical when the nearest station in zone 6 has a single fare valid via Shenfield only. Can somebody with better knowledge of the system than me link to a map specifically for a Rochford plus zone 1 to 6 travelcard ticket?
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PeterC - Really quick way to verify my claims on the national rail enquiries website:
Rayleigh - Upminster via Southend
Hockley - Upminster via Southend
Rochford - Upminster via Southend
You can then click the travelcard option for each of these.
You can also look at the fares for stations on the lines and see a clear indication that if you are going to Upminster, you are meant to go via Southend.
All this was featured in my court claim which I have in front of me now. Unfortunatly, as it was a PDF and some images and text needs redacting as I have lost my master copy word file it is going to take some time to prepare to upload here.
Rayleigh - Upminster via Southend
Hockley - Upminster via Southend
Rochford - Upminster via Southend
You can then click the travelcard option for each of these.
You can also look at the fares for stations on the lines and see a clear indication that if you are going to Upminster, you are meant to go via Southend.
All this was featured in my court claim which I have in front of me now. Unfortunatly, as it was a PDF and some images and text needs redacting as I have lost my master copy word file it is going to take some time to prepare to upload here.
..is clearly valid to Upminster via Southend because Upminster is in Zone 6 and the absolute shortest route (including recognised walking interchanges) is via Southend.
It's the most straightforward route as well as the shortest route and is correctly offered by booking engines.
Staff who make up rules claiming it's invalid are not doing their jobs properly. If they don't know, then they should admit it!
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Islineclear3_1
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