Route AWC & connections

[redreni]

Earlier this morning I walked rather briskly from Manchester Victoria to Manchester Piccadilly and it occurs to me that I probably didn't need to.

My ticket is an Advance Rochdale to Nuneaton route AWC&Connections.

It is an e-ticket with the following itinerary on the face of the ticket itself:

Rochdale dep 09.57 (bus)
Manchester Victoria arr 10.29
(Transfer - make your own way 22 minutes)
Manchester Piccadilly dep 11.06 (Northern)
Stockport arr 11.19
Stockport dep 11.44 (Avanti)
Nuneaton arr 12.42

The fixed link is 22 minutes and the 10 minute MCT means there's only 5 minutes extra slack in this connection at Manchester.

The replacement bus arrived 16 minutes late at 11.45. I walked to Piccadilly and made the connection onto my booked train (the 11.08 Northern) with about 2 minutes to spare.

As an earlier delay left me insufficient time, in principle, to make this connection, I'm assuming if I had missed the 11.08 I would have been perfectly entitled to get the 11.35 Avanti train from Manchester Piccadilly, as that is still in line with the TOC restriction on the ticket? So I could have sauntered across Manchester city centre rather than charged across and/or stopped to grab a coffee?

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

In civil law you do have a reasonable duty to mitigate your losses, but that doesn't extend to rushing or going out of your way with a taxi etc. As long as you weren't taking intentionally slower routes or stopping off along the way for a coffee etc, you're absolutely fine. You'd have been valid on the next Avanti train.

If you were disabled or frail etc, you'd have even more leeway in what would be reasonable.

 

[redreni]

In civil law you do have a reasonable duty to mitigate your losses

Well yes, but my point is missing the connection at Manchester would have been no loss to me whatsoever provided I could still pick up the same Avanti train. My itinerary called for taking a slow Northern train to Stockport and picking up the Avanti there, which was a cheaper but certainly not a more convenient option than just getting straight on it at Manchester Piccadilly.

I would have preferred to be able to at least grab a takeaway coffee - I would have had time to do so if I had the minimum 32 minutes I was meant to have to make that connection!

As it transpired, I rushed to get my booked Northern train because I find being on the booked itinerary just avoids a lot of potential hassle. As I don't travel much in the Manchester area or on Avanti I don't know, however, if I would have experienced any hassle in circumstances like these? I don't know if the arrival time of my rail replacement bus would have been easily checkable by any member of staff wishing to verify that I was delayed on the Rochdale to Victoria leg?

Just curious to know what other forum members would do in circumstances like these?

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Well yes, but my point is missing the connection at Manchester would have been no loss to me whatsoever provided I could still pick up the same Avanti train. My itinerary called for taking a slow Northern train to Stockport and picking up the Avanti there, which was a cheaper but certainly not a more convenient option than just getting straight on it at Manchester Piccadilly.

I would have preferred to be able to at least grab a takeaway coffee - I would have had time to do so if I had the minimum 32 minutes I was meant to have to make that connection!

In the event I rushed to get my booked Northern train because I find being on the booked itinerary just avoids a lot of potential hassle. As I don't travel much in the Manchester area or on Avanti I don't know, however, if I would have experienced any hassle in circumstances like these? I don't know if the arrival time of my rail replacement bus would have been easily checkable by any member of staff wishing to verify that I was delayed on the Rochdale to Victoria leg?

Just curious to know what other forum members would do in circumstances like these?

To be fair, the minimum connection time isn't for stopping off for a coffee etc - although clearly, in normal circumstances you will have time to do so as it is quite generous if you're not disabled or frail. You'd be bordering on the making yourself intentionally delayed in some circumstances. It's literally what it says on the tin, the minimum time allowance to change trains.

You can protect against that by simply specifying more transfer time on reputable booking engines to increase the minimum connection time.

 

[MrJeeves]

My itinerary called for taking a slow Northern train to Stockport and picking up the Avanti there, which was a cheaper but certainly not a more convenient option than just getting straight on it at Manchester Piccadilly.

My understanding of the rules being you're permitted to take the next train(s) that meet the route/operator restriction.

I fail to see how taking Avanti straight from Manchester would go against the restrictions of a ticket routed "AWC & Connections", but you'd probably have to explain what happened to the TM.

Advance Tickets Terms and Conditions | National Rail

The terms and conditions for using Advance tickets on National Rail services. Advance tickets are single tickets for selected journeys, available in First Class and Standard Class, offering the best available price for each journey.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

4.3 Tickets may only be used on the services of the Train Company (or geographic route where applicable) shown next to ‘Route’ on the ticket.

4.4 If the ‘Route’ also states ‘and Connections’, travel is allowed on appropriate connecting trains where shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary.

[...]

5.2 If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey.

 

[redreni]

To be fair, the minimum connection time isn't for stopping off for a coffee etc - although clearly, in normal circumstances you will have time to do so as it is quite generous if you're not disabled or frail. You'd be bordering on the making yourself intentionally delayed in some circumstances. It's literally what it says on the tin, the minimum time allowance to change trains.

You can protect against that by simply specifying more transfer time on reputable booking engines to increase the minimum connection time.

Not in these circumstances, though - the missing of the connection doesn't affect the arrival time in Nuneaton at all. So at best, it would be making yourself intentionally have a more civilised connection.

My feeling is if TOCs want to price tickets differently depending on which specific trains are on the itinerary, fine, but once I've been delayed such that the MCT for the connection shown isn't there, the requirement to follow the itinerary goes away and we're left with the requirement to take the next train that meets the routing and TOC restrictions.

Admittedly in this case I think there was maybe one more Northern and possibly a CrossCountry train that left after 11.08 and connected validly at Stockport with the Avanti I was booked on from Stockport, but I haven't bothered to work out whether, given my late arrival at Victoria, I had my 32 minutes in which I could have been expected to catch either of those. I think most people would interpret the Advance ticket T&Cs as allowing use of the next train that goes to Nuneaton that meets the routing and TOC restrictions on the ticket, though? If an earlier delay prevents me taking my booked train then I can't see where I'm forced to necessarily take the first available train to Stockport and change there just because my itinerary says change at Stockport?

My understanding of the rules being you're permitted to take the next train(s) that meet the route/operator restriction.

I fail to see how taking Avanti straight from Manchester would go against the restrictions of a ticket routed "AWC & Connections", but you'd probably have to explain what happened to the TM.

Advance Tickets Terms and Conditions | National Rail

The terms and conditions for using Advance tickets on National Rail services. Advance tickets are single tickets for selected journeys, available in First Class and Standard Class, offering the best available price for each journey.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

Thanks!

 

[yorkie]

Earlier this morning I walked rather briskly from Manchester Victoria to Manchester Piccadilly and it occurs to me that I probably didn't need to.

My ticket is an Advance Rochdale to Nuneaton route AWC&Connections.

It is an e-ticket with the following itinerary on the face of the ticket itself:

Rochdale dep 09.57 (bus)
Manchester Victoria arr 10.29
(Transfer - make your own way 22 minutes)
Manchester Piccadilly dep 11.06 (Northern)
Stockport arr 11.19
Stockport dep 11.44 (Avanti)
Nuneaton arr 12.42

The fixed link is 22 minutes and the 10 minute MCT means there's only 5 minutes extra slack in this connection at Manchester.

The replacement bus arrived 16 minutes late at 11.45. I walked to Piccadilly and made the connection onto my booked train (the 11.08 Northern) with about 2 minutes to spare.

As an earlier delay left me insufficient time, in principle, to make this connection, I'm assuming if I had missed the 11.08 I would have been perfectly entitled to get the 11.35 Avanti train from Manchester Piccadilly, as that is still in line with the TOC restriction on the ticket? So I could have sauntered across Manchester city centre rather than charged across and/or stopped to grab a coffee?

I did the walk today in about 15 mins, but then I am a quick walker and I know the way very well, as I travel this way for work meetings roughly every other month.

Given your train arrived 16 mins late, then if you had missed the train due to this, and you had made all reasonable efforts to make the connection (i.e. not delaying yourself by getting food/drinks) then you would absolutely be covered.