Route knowledge at junctions: I tip my hat to the train drivers

[Eric]

Just watched this

I never knew a train driver had to understand so many different signals and all of them on the York-Hull-Leeds-Huddersfield-Manchester line.

 

[6Gman]

And that, sir, is why deriving a train is not just sitting at the front and pulling a few levers.



Signals, junctions, speed limits, gradients, characteristics of different types of loco/unit, weather conditions etc etc

 

[bramling]

And that, sir, is why deriving a train is not just sitting at the front and pulling a few levers.



Signals, junctions, speed limits, gradients, characteristics of different types of loco/unit, weather conditions etc etc

And of course not forgetting that train driving is not forgiving of errors. It’s an occupation where it’s necessary to get things right first-time, all the time. This is one aspect many don’t appreciate.

 

[Cowley]

And of course not forgetting that train driving is not forgiving of errors. It’s an occupation where it’s necessary to get things right first-time, all the time. This is one aspect many don’t appreciate.

Well said.

 

[HowardGWR]

And of course not forgetting that train driving is not forgiving of errors. It’s an occupation where it’s necessary to get things right first-time, all the time. This is one aspect many don’t appreciate.

Oops!

 

[DunfordBridge]

Very intriguing is this video although I have not seen it all yet.

I cannot help but be somewhat blasé but there was little that was unusual as I have seen the locations depicted on other cab rides, minus the commentary. Something that sticks in the mind about the limit of 40 in the down passenger loop at Dewsbury.

What would really impress me though is if someone could explain why the leading train at Marsden was stopped on the up line and not stopped in the loop? Maybe to maintain seperation between trains with the 15 limit on the pointwork.

And that, sir, is why deriving a train is not just sitting at the front and pulling a few levers.



Signals, junctions, speed limits, gradients, characteristics of different types of loco/unit, weather conditions etc etc

Not to mention railhead adhesion, very topical at this time of year.

 

[snakeeyes]

I am still amazed how driver's manage to balance the train on two thin rails

 

[Cowley]

I am still amazed how driver's manage to balance the train on two thin rails

Well of course that’s why they’re not allowed to take illegal drugs.

 

[philthetube]

Interesting film, one question it raises to me is the position of the speed restriction signs, they seem to be too close to the points for a driver to be able to act on them. I know that a drivers knowledge means that they know the locations and limits so that should not be a problem, but that being the case why do they exist at all?

 

[philthetube]

I am still amazed how driver's manage to balance the train on two thin rails

Underground drivers are even cleverer, they do it in the dark.

 

[bramling]

Interesting film, one question it raises to me is the position of the speed restriction signs, they seem to be too close to the points for a driver to be able to act on them. I know that a drivers knowledge means that they know the locations and limits so that should not be a problem, but that being the case why do they exist at all?

They’re purely a reminder and to denote the *exact* point where the restriction actually starts or ends.

This part of route knowledge may well cease to exist in a generation or two if and when in-cab signalling takes hold. Its already the case on some LU lines.

 

[trainophile]

A question for the drivers - do you give much thought (or have the time to) to the fact that there are anything up to several hundred people behind you, and you are in sole control of their destiny? That would frighten me witless, never mind the technical stuff!

 

[Dieseldriver]

Interesting film, one question it raises to me is the position of the speed restriction signs, they seem to be too close to the points for a driver to be able to act on them. I know that a drivers knowledge means that they know the locations and limits so that should not be a problem, but that being the case why do they exist at all?

They're just markers really. Having said that, depending on how big a Drivers route card is it's nearly impossible to remember all the speeds over points exactly. Having the speed signs can help with this (you approach it expecting it to be 20mph then see it is 40mph, it gives you the opportunity to speed up).

 

[bramling]

A question for the drivers - do you give much thought (or have the time to) to the fact that there are anything up to several hundred people behind you, and you are in sole control of their destiny? That would frighten me witless, never mind the technical stuff!

In most cases the presence of the train behind is immaterial. The only time it really registers is if something is going on with passengers, which is only a minute fraction of the time. Otherwise the only thought about the back of the train is when negotiating speed restrictions or occasionally knowing where to stop when doing a shunt.

 

[yorkie]

The video says the line speed at Micklefield Junction heading towards York was dropped to 80mph however this junction was previously 70mph.

But perhaps they meant the plans were originally for 90mph but was reduced to 80 compared to the original plan? Even then, surely you'd not need to bring trains to a near stand heading for a 70mph turnout on a 90mph line speed if you installed flashing yellow signals?

 

[Eric]

They’re purely a reminder and to denote the *exact* point where the restriction actually starts or ends.

This part of route knowledge may well cease to exist in a generation or two if and when in-cab signalling takes hold. Its already the case on some LU lines.

What will in-cab signalling do? Stop the need for signals along the tracks?

 

[bramling]

What will in-cab signalling do? Stop the need for signals along the tracks?

If one looks as the in-cab system on the Jubilee and Northern lines, yes. Knowledge of speed limits isn’t necessary as the speed is constantly supervised by the system, which includes braking curves too. Therefore it’s possible to provide advance warning to the driver of a required change in speed.

Having said that, the driver still ends up knowing the speeds - but through experience not route learning!

 

[Tomnick]

What would really impress me though is if someone could explain why the leading train at Marsden was stopped on the up line and not stopped in the loop? Maybe to maintain seperation between trains with the 15 limit on the pointwork.

The signalling system will ensure that separation between trains is maintained, which is likely to mean that the second train would be heavily checked at the signal in rear of the junction signal whilst the first train waits for the approach control to do its stuff and then crawls into the loop. It’s still usually quicker overall (to put the first, slower, train into the loop) because the second train can get stuck into it as soon as the first train is inside that way.

In this case, especially given how the first train is moving towards the signal as it’s being overtaken, I suspect that it’s just called at Marsden, where the distance (on foot) between the two platforms and lack of passenger information (?) means that it’s preferable to make a bizarre move like this than to re-platform the stopper to the loop platform at short notice.

 

[bengley]

The video says the line speed at Micklefield Junction heading towards York was dropped to 80mph however this junction was previously 70mph.

But perhaps they meant the plans were originally for 90mph but was reduced to 80 compared to the original plan? Even then, surely you'd not need to bring trains to a near stand heading for a 70mph turnout on a 90mph line speed if you installed flashing yellow signals?

The route towards York is designed for 90mph and a train can safely traverse the junction at 90mph, however in order to allow a proceed to be given from a distance towards Hull, a driver has to be slowed down to 80mph on the main route so the differential is only 10mph in linespeed. I believe there may be a plan to install flashing yellows for the Hull line, with 90mph through the junction to York, however with it looking like ETCS is going to be put in that's less likely now.

 

[jamesst]

A question for the drivers - do you give much thought (or have the time to) to the fact that there are anything up to several hundred people behind you, and you are in sole control of their destiny? That would frighten me witless, never mind the technical stuff!

To be blunt about it unless there's something active happening in the coaches behind I barely even think of what's behind me!

 

[Llanigraham]

What will in-cab signalling do? Stop the need for signals along the tracks?

Have a look at the system used on the Cambrian lines from Shrewsbury to Machylleth, Pwllelli, and Aberystwyth, known as ERTMS. That has no line side signals after Sutton Bridge Junct.

 

[trainophile]

Thanks to the drivers who replied. I suppose the other times you think about the human cargo is when you either step out of the cab or look out the platform side window at stations, and that’s more for safety checks than anything else.

 

[6Gman]

I am still amazed how driver's manage to balance the train on two thin rails

If they misjudge that on the Down Fast at Linslade they can wreck their rear view mirrors (or worse).

 

[The Nomad]

Can someone explain the flashing signal bit a bit more? Is it something like to slow the train over the points, but after the points the train can accelerate?

 

[Tomnick]

Can someone explain the flashing signal bit a bit more? Is it something like to slow the train over the points, but after the points the train can accelerate?

http://www.davros.org/rail/signalling/articles/junctions.html gives an excellent explanation of all the principles shown in the video. Well worth a read.

 

[Class 170101]

Interesting that the signal at 2:21 is not on the end of the platform but before it. Presumably that will lock the junction for an extended period.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Is it bad that I knew where that was in the thumbnail of the video just from the weird arch things on the footbridge, before I'd scrolled any further?

 

[Starmill]

Is it bad that I knew where that was in the thumbnail of the video just from the weird arch things on the footbridge, before I'd scrolled any further?

I looked at it and immediately thought it was Ravensthorpe. Only because the footbridge is out over the ends of the platforms, and it's so low and rickety-looking, though. I don't know what you're actually referring to here!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I looked at it and immediately thought it was Ravensthorpe. Only because the footbridge is out over the ends of the platforms, and it's so low and rickety-looking, though. I don't know what you're actually referring to here!

The angular metal arches on the footbridge which look as if they once supported a roof of sorts.

 

[Starmill]

The angular metal arches on the footbridge which look as if they once supported a roof of sorts.

Hm I see. Hones I'd never noticed those before!