Route +London Not Underground

[RJ]

I've noticed this routing on a number of tickets between the Denmark Hill and Sevenoaks areas.

Considering that the marker denotes validity either on the LU/DLR or Snow Hill tunnel, are there actually any permitted routes where the cross London validity can be used?

 

[bb21]

How strange! I suspect that the Maltese Cross is a mistake, by comparing the WOD/S and the CDR/S fares.

 

[30907]

Yes, the + seems odd.

Presumably London not Und is intended to permit travel via the South London Line and London Br (useful for DH-7oaks) but blocks (eg) Elephant-London Br on the Northern?

 

[bicbasher]

Other Not Underground routes that spring to mind.

Denmark Hill > Clapham Junction > Waterloo NR > Waterloo East > Sevenoaks
Denmark Hill > Blackfriars NR > London Bridge NR > Sevenoaks

The Maltese Cross may be potentially allowed as transfer on the Jubilee line between Canada Water and London Bridge when the Southern platforms are closed for the ongoing Thameslink and station rebuilding work.

 

[tsr]

The Maltese Cross may be potentially allowed as transfer on the Jubilee line between Canada Water and London Bridge when the Southern platforms are closed for the ongoing Thameslink and station rebuilding work.

A complete blockade of the London Bridge terminating platforms will often (but not always) result in ticket acceptance on appropriate Tube, London Overground & Tramlink routes anyway.

 

[30907]

Other Not Underground routes that spring to mind.

Denmark Hill > Clapham Junction > Waterloo NR > Waterloo East > Sevenoaks
Denmark Hill > Blackfriars NR > London Bridge NR > Sevenoaks

Or indeed DH-Victoria-Bromley S/Orpington - S'oaks to be exhaustive.

 

[NathanPrior]

Other Not Underground routes that spring to mind.

Denmark Hill > Clapham Junction > Waterloo NR > Waterloo East > Sevenoaks
Denmark Hill > Blackfriars NR > London Bridge NR > Sevenoaks

The Maltese Cross may be potentially allowed as transfer on the Jubilee line between Canada Water and London Bridge when the Southern platforms are closed for the ongoing Thameslink and station rebuilding work.

Along with Denmark Hill > Lewisham > Hither Green/Orpington > Sevenoaks

 

[30907]

But that is valid on a Not London ticket anyway

 

[maniacmartin]

Would a Maltese cross on a NOT UNDERGROUND ticket still permit travel on the DLR?

NRE shows Bank, Greenwich (DLR) and Lewisham (DLR) as possible appropriate entry and exit points for a Maltese Cross, not that I can see how it would be useful for Denmark Hill to Sevenoaks.

 

[island]

Yes, it would be valid on the DLR or Thameslink. This applied for example on Romford to Eltham route +NOT VIA LONDON where the intended route includes travel from Stratford to Lewisham or Woolwich Arsenal on the DLR.

 

[tsr]

Theoretically, what would happen if the customer pointed to the following wording on the rear of their ticket, though?

"+" denotes ticket is valid for one journey across London by Underground/DLR services if required.

Can a customer then claim that the route on the ticket cannot prohibit use of the Tube when the ticket has a Maltese cross, on the basis that it clearly states that this means it is valid for a journey on the Underground if required*, and that the ticket is neither restricted by use of a TOC as specified in Appendix C of the NRCoC, nor via a particular NR rail route or location?

Common sense would dictate that the customer should not use Tube services, but then again, their ticket does clearly state that you may use tickets with a Maltese cross on the Underground/DLR. Surely the most beneficial route should be permitted (presumably often the shortest or quickest) if the record of the contract (the ticket) is contradictory?

*This specific requirement is, I believe, not clearly defined.

 

[furlong]

*This specific requirement is, I believe, not clearly defined.

Indeed, while both UNDERGROUND and NOT are left undefined in the context they are used, the meaning of the Maltese Cross is clearly defined.

Just as ATOC famously explained that 'NOT LONDON' tickets may be valid via London:

The routes 'London' and 'not London' are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

it should be easily understood that some 'NOT UNDERGROUND' tickets are valid on the Underground if there are other considerations capable of overriding the printed route text.

 

[adrock1976]

From how I have interpreted the original post, I believe that the general rule of thumb for a "Not via London" or "London Not Underground" but contains the Maltese cross can be used for any reasonable transfer or connecting services AS long as it avoids entering Zone 1.

I have based this on the basis of to travel via Zone 1 would result in a higher fare.

I may be wrong here, but somebody who has more knowledge than me of London zone fares may be able to confirm if that is how the above case is meant to be interpreted.

In peace

Adam

 

[maniacmartin]

From how I have interpreted the original post, I believe that the general rule of thumb for a "Not via London" or "London Not Underground" but contains the Maltese cross can be used for any reasonable transfer or connecting services AS long as it avoids entering Zone 1.

I have based this on the basis of to travel via Zone 1 would result in a higher fare

I disagree. These tickets have no validity rules based on zones at all, and price does not determine validity since the abolition of British Rail

 

[tsr]

I disagree. These tickets have no validity rules based on zones at all, and price does not determine validity since the abolition of British Rail

Ahem. Under certain provisions of the Routeing Guide, prices of tickets, when compared, can determine validity on certain routes.

http://iblocks-rg-publication.s3-website-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/nrg_instructions.pdf - Step 4.

(I doubt this is in any way relevant here.)

 

[JamesRowden]

Would a Maltese cross on a NOT UNDERGROUND ticket still permit travel on the DLR?

NRE shows Bank, Greenwich (DLR) and Lewisham (DLR) as possible appropriate entry and exit points for a Maltese Cross, not that I can see how it would be useful for Denmark Hill to Sevenoaks.

It looks although the ticket would be valid for this route:

• Denmark Hill
• Peckham Rye
• London Bridge
• Cannon Street
  • Walk
• Bank
  • DLR
• Lewisham
• Hither Green
• Sevenoaks