Routes/Services you think should be transferred to a different TOC

[CarrotPie]

Reading the thread on the Redhill-Tonbridge shuttle being crewed entirely by Southeastern made me realise that I have thought for years that that line should have been run be SE, and not transferred to Southern. Any other routes or services you think should be transferred to a different TOC?

 

[PTR 444]

A less obvious idea but i’ve often thought that once Liverpool - Norwich is split, the eastern section from Nottingham should be transferred to Greater Anglia so they can run Stadler FLIRTs on the route, removing all diesel running between Grantham and Peterborough.

 

[Tomo]

Geographically Ashford to Hastings would make more sense being run by southeastern. Practically that won't happen unless it gets electrified

 

[NSE]

I think you’ll always get a split where franchises meet.

Reading to Basingstoke for example makes total sense with GWR but I could see the logic if they gave it solely to SWR (one less operator at Basingstoke, ability to run it through to places like Salisbury (which they did on sundays pre covid I think) or Portsmouth etc). It wouldn’t be a total ‘what on earth made that happen’.

 

[Bletchleyite]

All the "XC lite" services away from XC, to either TfW, WMT or EMR as appropriate, leaving only the Voyager and HST operations.

 

[swt_passenger]

A less obvious idea but i’ve often thought that once Liverpool - Norwich is split, the eastern section from Nottingham should be transferred to Greater Anglia so they can run Stadler FLIRTs on the route, removing all diesel running between Grantham and Peterborough.

Transferred routes in the past have usually included the existing rolling stock. You cannot assume GA would necessarily use FLIRTS, as they’d have none spare. So if it happened today they’d potentially use 158s or 170s, depending what EMR released.

 

[JonathanH]

You cannot assume GA would necessarily use FLIRTS, as they’d have none spare.

Yes, but in this case they do have FLIRTS spare because they aren't going to run through trains to the East Suffolk Line from London or an hourly service on the Ipswich to Peterborough line against which the extra units were ordered. GA have enough displaced units to run Norwich to Peterborough and probably Nottingham as a result.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...are-755s-to-run-norwich-to-nottingham.212253/

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jul 2021 ==

Reading the thread on the Redhill-Tonbridge shuttle being crewed entirely by Southeastern made me realise that I have thought for years that that line should have been run be SE, and not transferred to Southern. Any other routes or services you think should be transferred to a different TOC?

The idea of transferring Redhill to Tonbridge to Southeastern has only really applied since May 2018 when the through services to London stopped. Prior to that, it made more sense for it to be Southern.

 

[lxfe_mxtterz]

I've often found the line from Reading down to Gatwick Airport rather isolated from the rest of the GWR network.

Would probably make a bit more sense with South Western Railway, but as per the example in post #3, this likely won't ever happen unless the whole thing gets electrified.

Special mention to the Southern service to Milton Keynes too - also very isolated from the rest of the network. But don't know which operator would make the most sense to operate that route...

 

[30907]

Yes, but in this case they do have FLIRTS spare because they aren't going to run through trains to the East Suffolk Line from London or an hourly service on the Ipswich to Peterborough line against which the extra units were ordered. GA have enough displaced units to run Norwich to Peterborough and probably Nottingham as a result.

Is this a permanent change of plan? I know Peterborough is dependent on line capacity

 

[Bletchleyite]

Special mention to the Southern service to Milton Keynes too - also very isolated from the rest of the network. But don't know which operator would make the most sense to operate that route...

The TOC at either end would work (as both have units capable of it), I don't see a strong argument either way to Southern or LNR, so it might as well stay as it is.

 

[YorksLad12]

TPE's Scotland via WCML route to... Avanti West Coast

 

[Bald Rick]

Is this a permanent change of plan?

As permanent as any service change is on the railway. The GA consultation on their new timetable did not include through services to Lowestoft (amongst other former franchise commitments) so you can assume a) they are not happening and b) that the DfT has agreed to that.

 

[CarrotPie]

Geographically Ashford to Hastings would make more sense being run by southeastern. Practically that won't happen unless it gets electrified

I've often found the line from Reading down to Gatwick Airport rather isolated from the rest of the GWR network.

Would probably make a bit more sense with South Western Railway, but as per the example in post #3, this likely won't ever happen unless the whole thing gets electrified.

Special mention to the Southern service to Milton Keynes too - also very isolated from the rest of the network. But don't know which operator would make the most sense to operate that route...

I've thought these too. The Southern cross-city one could be done by LNWR, terminating on the Banana Arches at Clapham or Croydon during the peaks. Possibly even LO Croydon-Watford and Southern/LNWR for the main service.

 

[PTR 444]

Special mention to the Southern service to Milton Keynes too - also very isolated from the rest of the network. But don't know which operator would make the most sense to operate that route...

London Overground?

 

[daodao]

TPE's Scotland via WCML route to... Avanti West Coast

I agree. Plus other TPE services as follows:

• ECML services to Newcastle/Middlesbrough to the ECML franchise
• Other Standedge route services to Northern
• Manchester-Cleethorpes to East Midlands Trains

 

[Bletchleyite]

London Overground?

Not really. It's a regional service that while it runs alongside LO isn't anything like a LO service. It makes more sense for it to be with one of the TOCs at either end, barely matters which.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jul 2021 ==

TPE's Scotland via WCML route to... Avanti West Coast

One post HS2 proposal is that it will be replaced with a classic-line London-Manchester-Scotland service, which makes sense to me. No doubt someone will shout about Ringway soon enough!

Pre HS2 it wouldn't really work as 13/14 wouldn't be able to cope with the high passenger volumes to/from London, and there's little point changing its TOC just for the sake of it.

 

[JonathanH]

Not really. It's a regional service that while it runs alongside LO isn't anything like a LO service. It makes more sense for it to be with one of the TOCs at either end, barely matters which.

If it was cut back to Watford Junction at one end and Clapham Junction at the other London Overground would be the right operator - as posted before there are already four slow services north of Watford Junction an hour (2 Tring, 1 Milton Keynes, 1 Northampton) which is perfectly adequate provision and fits the one operator principle.

London Overground even have six surplus 5-car 710s that could operate the cut back service on the basis they aren't needed for an increase in service on the routes they were procured for. The released 377s would be good for (part of) 455 replacement.

Is anyone complaining about it not running at the moment?

 

[cle]

If it was cut back to Watford Junction at one end and Clapham Junction at the other London Overground would be the right operator - as posted before there are already four slow services north of Watford Junction an hour (2 Tring, 1 Milton Keynes, 1 Northampton) which is perfectly adequate provision and fits the one operator principle.

London Overground even have six surplus 5-car 710s that could operate the cut back service on the basis they aren't needed for an increase in service on the routes they were procured for. The released 377s would be good for (part of) 455 replacement.

Is anyone complaining about it not running at the moment?

I think this would be a better post-HS2 solution. Running the same stock (378 or future version) up the WCML - it uses different lines until close to Wembley so can be regulated there to call right after a faster service. They skip Bushey too. 2 or even 3tph turning in platform 10 at Watford.

It would mean it could not call at Willesden Junction, however, with current lack of platforms. My preferred version of WLL frequency was sending those tph through to Barking, with just Gospel Oak works required/decided upon (perhaps it becomes NLL only if too spendy for platforms).

 

[30907]

As permanent as any service change is on the railway. The GA consultation on their new timetable did not include through services to Lowestoft (amongst other former franchise commitments) so you can assume a) they are not happening and b) that the DfT has agreed to that.

Thanks. I hadn't picked that up.

That said, I would be cautious about re-allocating units semi-permanently as soon as December 2022, bearing in mind the training implications as well as the unpredictable nature of post-Covid demand.

 

[Ken H]

Birmingham - Manchester to west coast franchise. Run electric trains on it. 5 car IEP's. Maybe its just me, but I would prefer 350's to Voyagers.

 

[London Trains]

Special mention to the Southern service to Milton Keynes too - also very isolated from the rest of the network. But don't know which operator would make the most sense to operate that route...

I'd give it to LNWR and cut it back to Clapham Jct (but still have it to MK) as the last section is mostly useless as it's faster to change at Clapham Jct for East Croydon. Additionally it can be made 2tph without worrying about BML paths, and operated solely out of P17 at Clapham, potentially allowing P16 to be used for other services if Clapham Jct is remodelled. The paths south of Clapham Jct could potentially also be used for extra metro services to Victoria.

Operate it with some extra new Aventras added onto the current order LNWR have (obviously these will need to have 3rd rail shoes) and the 377s used can go onto metro services to displace 455s.

 

[Bald Rick]

2 or even 3tph turning in platform 10 at Watford.

P10 at Watford is (in normal times) relatively well occupied in the peak. This is one of the reasons that the train goes to MK now.

 

[flitwickbeds]

Romford to Upminster to either TfL Rail/Crossrail, or c2c.

Corby to St Pancras to Thameslink (but keep Melton Mowbray to Corby services with EMR)

 

[cle]

Birmingham - Manchester to west coast franchise. Run electric trains on it. 5 car IEP's. Maybe its just me, but I would prefer 350's to Voyagers.

Voyagers shouldn't be running fully under the wires. 350s do Liverpool, no reason they can't do Manchester - and interwork even. Especially with London-TV services or the talk of Manchester-Birmingham via Rugeley ones, from a while back. And perhaps a new stock on Tring and MKC inners.

 

[NSE]

The TOC at either end would work (as both have units capable of it), I don't see a strong argument either way to Southern or LNR, so it might as well stay as it is.

This is it. So many people on here moan about ‘Southern in Milton Keynes isn’t very ‘southern’’. By that logic the sleepers shouldn’t have any Scottish branding or references at all for when they berth at Euston! As long as one end of the route fits the operator then it totally works! Scarborough isn’t in East Midlands, Nottingham isn’t particularly ‘Northern’ (not when the same operator runs services north of Newcastle a few times a day!) and Crewe, Chester, Cheltenham and Birmingham aren’t very Welsh!

 

[daodao]

Crewe, Chester, Cheltenham and Birmingham aren’t very Welsh!

Cheshire is a border county (at least in the west) and Chester is on the border. Crewe is a Welsh place name.

 

[YorksLad12]

I agree. Plus other TPE services as follows:

• ECML services to Newcastle/Middlesbrough to the ECML franchise
• Other Standedge route services to Northern
• Manchester-Cleethorpes to East Midlands Trains

I know we've had these arguments before but I'd leave the rest as-is. Unless we somehow merge XC and TPE, and drop all of the short routes (which is a different thread or three entirely) I also forgot the Liverpool-Scotland services, which should also transfer.

One post HS2 proposal is that it will be replaced with a classic-line London-Manchester-Scotland service, which makes sense to me. No doubt someone will shout about Ringway soon enough!

Pre HS2 it wouldn't really work as 13/14 wouldn't be able to cope with the high passenger volumes to/from London, and there's little point changing its TOC just for the sake of it.

That's the trouble with Manchester (apart from it being Lancashire); you can't head north from Piccadilly shed. You'd have to start from Victoria or the Airport (ha!) and head west, and one of those would require a trip through P14. And you'd need a new contract holder (west Coast) at a station it doesn't currently operate from/to. If only someone had tried to connect London Road and Liverpool Road stations 100 years ago...

 

[JonathanH]

Birmingham - Manchester to west coast franchise. Run electric trains on it. 5 car IEP's. Maybe its just me, but I would prefer 350's to Voyagers.

...or just the slack in the Pendolino fleet which results from the reduction in service. The railway needs to take advantage of the reduction in demand to spread existing fleets and get old rolling stock to drop out the bottom, particularly on shared routes where there would be no need for training on new traction. Pendolinos taking over from Voyagers on Manchester to Birmingham would be a case in point. The released Voyagers can then eliminate the XC HSTs sooner than the release of Voyagers from Avanti.

 

[CarrotPie]

Voyagers shouldn't be running fully under the wires. 350s do Liverpool, no reason they can't do Manchester - and interwork even. Especially with London-TV services or the talk of Manchester-Birmingham via Rugeley ones, from a while back. And perhaps a new stock on Tring and MKC inners.

Avanti have ordered 12x5-car Class 805 bi-modes and 10x7-car EMUs, which will both be technically similar to the IEPs and Class 803s, to replace the Voyagers. The bi-modes will run to Wales and the EMUs will do Manchester and Liverpool.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If it was cut back to Watford Junction at one end and Clapham Junction at the other London Overground would be the right operator - as posted before there are already four slow services north of Watford Junction an hour (2 Tring, 1 Milton Keynes, 1 Northampton) which is perfectly adequate provision and fits the one operator principle.

Adequate, but not good. It was that for a while, and the additional changes were a nuisance (and inevitably were not well timed).

London Overground even have six surplus 5-car 710s that could operate the cut back service on the basis they aren't needed for an increase in service on the routes they were procured for. The released 377s would be good for (part of) 455 replacement.

Is anyone complaining about it not running at the moment?

I am sure those who use this very useful service regularly are, yes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Jul 2021 ==

Operate it with some extra new Aventras added onto the current order LNWR have (obviously these will need to have 3rd rail shoes) and the 377s used can go onto metro services to displace 455s.

Just use 350/1s which are already third rail capable and indeed have been used on it before.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Jul 2021 ==

P10 at Watford is (in normal times) relatively well occupied in the peak. This is one of the reasons that the train goes to MK now.

I wouldn't support this necessarily, but one thing that could be done if it went to LO would be to rejig the layout at Watford and run it to St Albans.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Jul 2021 ==

Voyagers shouldn't be running fully under the wires. 350s do Liverpool, no reason they can't do Manchester - and interwork even. Especially with London-TV services or the talk of Manchester-Birmingham via Rugeley ones, from a while back. And perhaps a new stock on Tring and MKC inners.

Tring and MKC local services will be getting Aventras anyway.