Routes through Edinburgh

[cle]

It is useful to hear about the operational validations too. My first instinct was simply that Edinburgh is a large, important enough city to justify both calls, with a lot of economic activity in its West End - plus the interchange (rail and other modes). For those in the know, and coming from the west, it is a much quicker way to get to many destinations. Manchester Oxford Road is a direct equivalent. There aren't many other cities which justify two mainline (consecutive) station calls.

Bristol doesn't have an equivalent, Parkway is exactly that. TM station is not especially central. Whereas the railway in Edinburgh runs along (under/through!) its core and economic axis. Many cities alongside Bristol do not have that, look at Sheffield for instance. Not much historically going on south of Leeds station either.
Hence no demand for two main calls, when the historical mainline is a ways out. Oxford is similar, Cambridge too (North and South are more 'modern' expansions).

 

[route101]

They did., Haymarket was a stop in both directions for KGX-GLC services.

Interesting, I remember going through Haymarket Non Stop a few times on GNER.

 

[Class 170101]

Interesting, I remember going through Haymarket Non Stop a few times on GNER.

From Carlisle direction when they are diverted that way.

 

[Scotrail84]

Interesting, I remember going through Haymarket Non Stop a few times on GNER.

They definitely stopped at HYM from around 2000 onwards, not sure about before then. I used to dispatch them. Used to be one from Newcastle to Glasgow about 8;15am. Mid afternoon about 15:20 then 17:20, then 20:20 and one about 22:29.

London bound there was one about 07:50, 08:50, 10:50, 16:50 and 18:50 and 20:50 before they extended the 18:50 ex Aberdeen to Leeds?? IIRC

From Carlisle direction when they are diverted that way.

Some of these stopped in recent years as well but not all of them.

 

[chiltern trev]

Some other cities were offered as examples. I offer Copenhagen – Central, Norreport and Osterport stations.

Copenhagen Central; is the main station and is located south east of the city centre and serves locations west, south and to Sweden.

Norreport is north of the city centre.

Osterport is north east of the city centre and when built was a terminus for the lines north to Helsingor. In 1917 a cut and cover tunnel was built from Osterport station to Central station with a new station at Norreport. The tunnel is 4 track – 2 for mainline services and 2 for S-tog service.

One mainline service is the Oresundtag service from Helsingor-Niva-Osterport-Norreport-Copenhagen Central-Copenhagen Airport-Oresund Bridge-Malmo- other Swedish destinations. The service frequency between Niva and the airport is every 10 minutes both ways from the start of the am peak through to the end of the pm peak Monday to Saturday and this 10 minute frequency dictates the complete timetable through the Central-Osterport section.

Most of the other services into Central station do not terminate at Central but continue northwards through Norreport and terminate at Osterport so the Central-Norreport section is heavily used giving rise to 3 trains every 10 minutes at peak hours which is very tight and at least 2 trains every 10 minutes for the rest of the day. A small number reverse to go to/from the airport to provide a limited number of through services to/from the airport to more distant parts of Denmark. I do not think any Danish services terminate at Central except at maybe the start or end of the day. The Swedish Railways service to Stockholm terminates at it own separate platform south of Central station.

All trains stop at Central, Norreport and Osterport for passenger convenience and operational ease (easier to manage if all trains have the same operating profile). To reverse trains at Central requires more platforms for which the space does not exist – and this is recognised as a problem which may be addressed in the future as there was a desire (pre Covid) to add 4 more platforms to cope with growth and more trains.

In practice, 3 trains every 10 minutes does not always work and so towards the end of the peak some services are typically up to 10 minutes late. There are several features of the track layout which help in mitigating delays, scheduling services and resequencing services.

South east of Central station the lines diverge – south east to the airport and west for the rest. At Central there are 4 platforms in each direction and any service can use 3 out of the 4 platforms so flexibility. As Central is the main station, there is a lot of interchanging, particularly passengers with luggage going to and from the airport so actual dwell times vary from 1.5 minutes for an emptier train with no passenger luggage to 4.0 minutes for a busier service with a lot of passenger luggage and passengers both alight and broad very train. The timetabled dwell time varies between 3.0 and 10.0 minutes to help with train sequencing on the approach lines and the Osterport line.

Heading out of Central towards Norreport, the 4 northbound tracks reduce to 2 northbound tracks and the length is such that a train can be held here and also passed, then the 2 northbound tracks reduce to 1 the northbound track through the tunnel.

Norreport station is 1 platform in each direction and this is the pinch point. This station is popular with Copenhagen residents for offices and shops so no luggage on and off.

The single northbound line continues to Osterport where there are 2 platforms in each direction. [Note southbound ahs the same number of tracks]. The outer platforms are normally to/from Helsingor and the inner platforms are for terminating/starting services with trains being able to use both platforms. The dwell time at Osterport is short as it is the least used station and terminating trains arrive almost empty so are quick to clear. North of Osterport, the Helsingor line divides some 100m+ apart and in the centre are a number of reversing sidings and one half of a train depot (the other half being accessed from a dive under).

Also, note the line speed approach throughout the whole Copenhagen area. There are no slow speed points used by passenger services whether in service or going in or out of service off the mainline. All points are of ‘line speed’ capability so drivers do not need to slow down for a change of platform or to take a diverging route. There are also plenty of points in the area to maximise flexibility of routing/platforming and with ‘line speed’ points the changing of a route does not incur a time penalty, not even of a second or so.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Some other cities were offered as examples. I offer Copenhagen – Central, Norreport and Osterport stations.

Copenhagen Central; is the main station and is located south east of the city centre and serves locations west, south and to Sweden.

Norreport is north of the city centre.

Osterport is north east of the city centre and when built was a terminus for the lines north to Helsingor. In 1917 a cut and cover tunnel was built from Osterport station to Central station with a new station at Norreport. The tunnel is 4 track – 2 for mainline services and 2 for S-tog service.

One mainline service is the Oresundtag service from Helsingor-Niva-Osterport-Norreport-Copenhagen Central-Copenhagen Airport-Oresund Bridge-Malmo- other Swedish destinations. The service frequency between Niva and the airport is every 10 minutes both ways from the start of the am peak through to the end of the pm peak Monday to Saturday and this 10 minute frequency dictates the complete timetable through the Central-Osterport section.

Most of the other services into Central station do not terminate at Central but continue northwards through Norreport and terminate at Osterport so the Central-Norreport section is heavily used giving rise to 3 trains every 10 minutes at peak hours which is very tight and at least 2 trains every 10 minutes for the rest of the day. A small number reverse to go to/from the airport to provide a limited number of through services to/from the airport to more distant parts of Denmark. I do not think any Danish services terminate at Central except at maybe the start or end of the day. The Swedish Railways service to Stockholm terminates at it own separate platform south of Central station.

All trains stop at Central, Norreport and Osterport for passenger convenience and operational ease (easier to manage if all trains have the same operating profile). To reverse trains at Central requires more platforms for which the space does not exist – and this is recognised as a problem which may be addressed in the future as there was a desire (pre Covid) to add 4 more platforms to cope with growth and more trains.

In practice, 3 trains every 10 minutes does not always work and so towards the end of the peak some services are typically up to 10 minutes late. There are several features of the track layout which help in mitigating delays, scheduling services and resequencing services.

South east of Central station the lines diverge – south east to the airport and west for the rest. At Central there are 4 platforms in each direction and any service can use 3 out of the 4 platforms so flexibility. As Central is the main station, there is a lot of interchanging, particularly passengers with luggage going to and from the airport so actual dwell times vary from 1.5 minutes for an emptier train with no passenger luggage to 4.0 minutes for a busier service with a lot of passenger luggage and passengers both alight and broad very train. The timetabled dwell time varies between 3.0 and 10.0 minutes to help with train sequencing on the approach lines and the Osterport line.

Heading out of Central towards Norreport, the 4 northbound tracks reduce to 2 northbound tracks and the length is such that a train can be held here and also passed, then the 2 northbound tracks reduce to 1 the northbound track through the tunnel.

Norreport station is 1 platform in each direction and this is the pinch point. This station is popular with Copenhagen residents for offices and shops so no luggage on and off.

The single northbound line continues to Osterport where there are 2 platforms in each direction. [Note southbound ahs the same number of tracks]. The outer platforms are normally to/from Helsingor and the inner platforms are for terminating/starting services with trains being able to use both platforms. The dwell time at Osterport is short as it is the least used station and terminating trains arrive almost empty so are quick to clear. North of Osterport, the Helsingor line divides some 100m+ apart and in the centre are a number of reversing sidings and one half of a train depot (the other half being accessed from a dive under).

Also, note the line speed approach throughout the whole Copenhagen area. There are no slow speed points used by passenger services whether in service or going in or out of service off the mainline. All points are of ‘line speed’ capability so drivers do not need to slow down for a change of platform or to take a diverging route. There are also plenty of points in the area to maximise flexibility of routing/platforming and with ‘line speed’ points the changing of a route does not incur a time penalty, not even of a second or so.

Sorry for continuing the diversion (but a bit of extra mileage eh...) but Köln is another example. Many ICE services call at both Hbf and Messe/Deutz.

 

[alangla]

LNER crew changes on the southbound Aberdeen services take place at Haymarket rather than Waverley.

Any idea why? That seems bizarre, both from a perspective of (comparatively) how few LNER services go beyond Edinburgh, how much busier the platforms are at Haymarket and the longer stops at Waverley

 

[Devon Sunset]

Not sure about now but the practice on the 07.52 departure from Aberdeen used to be on arrival at Haymarket the catering crew and guard left the train and crossed over to platform 2 to await the arrival of the Northbound 10.32 departure back to Aberdeen, which arrived with only a guard as the catering crew had departed at Waverley. That guard then travelled back to Waverley. A fresh guard travelled from Waverley to take over the 10.17 departure and worked that train as far as York with the catering crew joining at Waverley. I think it was all to do with the Aberdeen crews hours and probably involved local agreements etc. Driver changes were still at Waverley as no drivers are based in Aberdeen.

 

[221129]

Any idea why? That seems bizarre, both from a perspective of (comparatively) how few LNER services go beyond Edinburgh, how much busier the platforms are at Haymarket and the longer stops at Waverley

They don't...

LNER crew changes on the southbound Aberdeen services take place at Haymarket rather than Waverley.

I must be imagining the crew changed at Edinburgh then.

 

[route101]

They don't...


I must be imagining the crew changed at Edinburgh then.

Maybe its a recent thing? I'm sure I've seen catering changing at Edinburgh.

They definitely stopped at HYM from around 2000 onwards, not sure about before then. I used to dispatch them. Used to be one from Newcastle to Glasgow about 8;15am. Mid afternoon about 15:20 then 17:20, then 20:20 and one about 22:29.

London bound there was one about 07:50, 08:50, 10:50, 16:50 and 18:50 and 20:50 before they extended the 18:50 ex Aberdeen to Leeds?? IIRC



Some of these stopped in recent years as well but not all of them.

Had a look at old timetables from 2010, there was one service that omitted Haymarket Northbound. I must of caught that once.

 

[ajrm]

They don't...


I must be imagining the crew changed at Edinburgh then.

As other posters have suggested, the arrangements seem to vary and the entire crew doesn't necessarily change at the same time. For a while Aberdeen catering crews stayed on until Berwick to assist with the 1st class meal service ex Edinburgh. But certainly for some time pre-Covid the train manager changeover was at Haymarket, which makes a lot of sense as it means that person is then in situ to manage the boarding and disembarking at Waverley where there's not much time to load and unload catering supplies and several hundred passengers.

 

[eoff]

I have not been at haymarket for some time but I can recall many times when trains passed without stopping.
Haymarket had some advantages, better for onward travel west of the city (or even to the west end), free toilets and an announcer with a nice sense of humour.

 

[Scotrail84]

I have not been at haymarket for some time but I can recall many times when trains passed without stopping.
Haymarket had some advantages, better for onward travel west of the city (or even to the west end), free toilets and an announcer with a nice sense of humour.

The Famous Jack McGee. Absolute legend of a man, enjoying his retirement now.

 

[alangla]

The Famous Jack McGee. Absolute legend of a man, enjoying his retirement now.

O/T but I was always amazed that Haymarket used to manually read through all the stops on the evening Helensburgh trains (every single lamp post via Yoker except Kilpatrick & Bowling) rather than just “all stations to Dalmuir then”
They’d have been knackered by the time they got to reading “Craigendoran and Helensburgh Central”

 

[route101]

Haymarket had manual announcements until recently I think, the old Edinburgh auto announcer was pretty dour, Waverley had her long before Glasgow Central/Queen St got them.

 

[ajrm]

The Famous Jack McGee. Absolute legend of a man, enjoying his retirement now.

'The next train on platform 4 is the 09-whatever to Brighton. First class is at the front of the train, next to the daffodils in the planter. Will the person on platform 4 who's been picking the daffodils please put them back, you're confusing the passengers.'

 

[leedstraindude]

LNER crew changes on the southbound Aberdeen services take place at Haymarket rather than Waverley.

Only on 1e11 (0752 Aberdeen departure) mon-sat, this means the crew can work back on 1W02 (0708 Leeds departure). Also on sundays only catering crew on 1e19 so they can assist back on 1w11 (1000 London departure). All others the crew changes are at Waverley.

 

[Scotrail84]

O/T but I was always amazed that Haymarket used to manually read through all the stops on the evening Helensburgh trains (every single lamp post via Yoker except Kilpatrick & Bowling) rather than just “all stations to Dalmuir then”
They’d have been knackered by the time they got to reading “Craigendoran and Helensburgh Central”

The 13:35 to Wick/Thurso was a favourite of his when it was effectively a through train.

 

[CW2]

Long, long ago, one of my earliest railway jobs was station announcer at Euston. You certainly needed a clear throat before attempting the 20:50 to Inverness and Fort William, The Royal Highlander. Front portion for .... rear portion for ... listing all stops on both portions!

 

[freddiem]

As an Edinburgh resident, Haymarket is extremely useful in interchanges as outlined above, for example I used to regularly travel from Stirling to Dalmeny changing at Haymarket with only the need to pop across from platform 3 to 2 (an island) which saved me trailing my bags through Waverley and often stepped off one train and onto the other whereas changing at Waverley would have meant a long wait due to the irregular service pattern on the Fife line.

 

[alangla]

As an Edinburgh resident, Haymarket is extremely useful in interchanges as outlined above, for example I used to regularly travel from Stirling to Dalmeny changing at Haymarket with only the need to pop across from platform 3 to 2 (an island) which saved me trailing my bags through Waverley and often stepped off one train and onto the other whereas changing at Waverley would have meant a long wait due to the irregular service pattern on the Fife line.

The only problem used to be that, particularly in the PM peak, you’d find yourself sitting in the luggage rack of a Turbostar to about Kirkcaldy on an Aberdeen train!

 

[freddiem]

The only problem used to be that, particularly in the PM peak, you’d find yourself sitting in the luggage rack of a Turbostar to about Kirkcaldy on an Aberdeen train!

Indeed, often questioned the lack of space on Aberdeen/Arbroath bound services when there was seemingly endless stock only going to Cardenden/Kirkcaldy

 

[plugwash]

Whilst perhaps difficult to find a parallel in the UK (other than TPE trains calling at Man Picc, Oxford Road and Victoria)

While there are more stations and the distances are sometimes a bit greater than Edinburgh-Wavely, most long distance trains from Manchester Picadilly have at least one additional stop in Greater Manchester.

Services to liverpool, north wales, preston and the northern WCML and beyond stop at Oxford Road
Trains to London, Birmingham, South wales and the fast services to Sheffield and beyond stop at Stockport.
Services to Leeds and beyond usually stop at Oxford Road and Victoria.

 

[bluesfromagun]

We'll there are some more curiosities associated with this stretch.

The time for trains to travel between the stations is also two minutes give or take, and that there is three aspect signalling and that there are three signal sections between the stations. This means that a train leaving the Waverley is just reaching the second signal as third clears in front of them, so each train has a clear run through.

Also that all trains are timetabled the same to there is no noticeable variation in acceleration dct

The entire run is four aspect signalling.
There are four signal sections between West end of Waverley and Haymarket, and five sections between East End of Waverley and Haymarket (1, 2, 7).
The signals are at the end of each platform, then exiting Mound Tunnel, then mouth of Haymarket Tunnel, within Haymarket Tunnel, and end of Haymarket platform.
This is almost identical on all four lines in both directions.

 

[route101]

The only problem used to be that, particularly in the PM peak, you’d find yourself sitting in the luggage rack of a Turbostar to about Kirkcaldy on an Aberdeen train!

Yes, that has put me off changing at Haymarket at times, if Im not in rush I will change at Waverley.

 

[route101]

The 13:35 to Wick/Thurso was a favourite of his when it was effectively a through train.

When was that? Was it advertised as a through service?

 

[matacaster]

It is useful to hear about the operational validations too. My first instinct was simply that Edinburgh is a large, important enough city to justify both calls, with a lot of economic activity in its West End - plus the interchange (rail and other modes). For those in the know, and coming from the west, it is a much quicker way to get to many destinations. Manchester Oxford Road is a direct equivalent. There aren't many other cities which justify two mainline (consecutive) station calls.

Bristol doesn't have an equivalent, Parkway is exactly that. TM station is not especially central. Whereas the railway in Edinburgh runs along (under/through!) its core and economic axis. Many cities alongside Bristol do not have that, look at Sheffield for instance. Not much historically going on south of Leeds station either.
Hence no demand for two main calls, when the historical mainline is a ways out. Oxford is similar, Cambridge too (North and South are more 'modern' expansions).

There used to Holbeck high and low level I don't know what trains stopped there though - maybe only locals?

 

[Scotrail84]

When was that? Was it advertised as a through service?

Maybe 2005/6 IIRC. It was always shown on departure boards at Waverley and Haymarket as Wick/Thurso, or maybe it just said Wick, can't really remember, appeared on the station planner at Haymarket as Wick/Thurso as well.

 

[route101]

Maybe 2005/6 IIRC. It was always shown on departure boards at Waverley and Haymarket as Wick/Thurso, or maybe it just said Wick, can't really remember, appeared on the station planner at Haymarket as Wick/Thurso as well.

Interesting, remember Kyle of Lochalsh from Queen St.

Wonder how many through passengers went beyond Inverness!

 

[Austriantrain]

Sorry for continuing the diversion (but a bit of extra mileage eh...) but Köln is another example. Many ICE services call at both Hbf and Messe/Deutz.

Wien Hbf (Vienna main station) and Wien Meidling (4 Minutes apart) are another example. All trains stop at both stations. Connections coming from the West towards the South take place at Meidling, others at Hauptbahnhof. In addition, Underground connections at the two stations serve entirely different parts of Vienna. So the double stop makes sense.