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Routing for 'Not Via' tickets

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kel-green

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Hi All

I understand that the routing guide can be used to determine valid routes for tickets that show route or are described as Any Permitted.

If you have a ticket routed as 'Not Via location'. How do you work out the valid routes for these?

Many Thanks
Kel
 
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kel-green

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27 Jan 2015
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Ok Thanks. The reason why I ask is that I have noticed something unusual that appears on both National Rail Enquires and the TOC's own website. The routing guide seems to imply that the ticket I want to use will not be valid for my route, however, I can get it show in the journey planners on these sites. I do not what specific route this is for on the public forum, just in case I have stumbled across a 'loophole'.
 

Intermodal

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This sometimes occurs. Generally the wisdom is that if you can manage to get a journey planner to issue an itinerary with reservations then it must be considered valid for you to travel on, as a binding contract has been formed at the point of sale.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Ok Thanks. The reason why I ask is that I have noticed something unusual that appears on both National Rail Enquires and the TOC's own website. The routing guide seems to imply that the ticket I want to use will not be valid for my route, however, I can get it show in the journey planners on these sites. I do not what specific route this is for on the public forum, just in case I have stumbled across a 'loophole'.
If you are offered a certain route as an itinerary and are able to book tickets in conjunction with this itinerary, then the validity of that route (at least at the times specified by the itinerary - not necessarily at all times/dates) is a binding term of the contract formed when you buy the tickets. Any refusal to honour the itinerary provided is a breach of contract for which your losses/damages are recoverable (e.g. new tickets that are deemed "valid").
 

kel-green

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27 Jan 2015
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Unfortunately, I cannot get reservations as it says 'Reservation not possible'. The ticket type in question is an Off-Peak Day Return and the route I am taking involves two changes. I think I may get questioned by a guard as for example, the Off-Peak Day Return between the two stations on the first train of my intended route is over twice the cost of my full route.

My route does in all due fairness look like a rather long route to get between the origin and destination on the ticket. However, as break of journey is permitted, I am planning to stop off at a few places on route. I initially had in my mind that I may have to get separate tickets for what I want to do, but then noticing that the journey planners were offering the said ticket via my intended route.

Thanks
Kel
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Unfortunately, I cannot get reservations as it says 'Reservation not possible'. The ticket type in question is an Off-Peak Day Return and the route I am taking involves two changes. I think I may get questioned by a guard as for example, the Off-Peak Day Return between the two stations on the first train of my intended route is over twice the cost of my full route.

My route does in all due fairness look like a rather long route to get between the origin and destination on the ticket. However, as break of journey is permitted, I am planning to stop off at a few places on route. I initially had in my mind that I may have to get separate tickets for what I want to do, but then noticing that the journey planners were offering the said ticket via my intended route.

Thanks
Kel
You don't need to have reservations - however it may be helpful, if you can't get reservations, to instead print off the itinerary you were provided with. The collection reference code on the itinerary will then match that printed on the tickets, so it can be verified (well, not 100%, but pretty well) that this itinerary is the same one that you were given when booking.

It is slightly harder to make a claim for breach of contract if you are not on the exact trains your itinerary provides - however if you wish to make a short-ish break of journey whilst still following a given itinerary then it may be worthwhile booking through a site like www.trainscanbecheaper.info, which is the non-splitting version of www.trainsplit.com (useful here so that you will only be sold through tickets and not suggested split tickets). The advanced options on the search there enable you to enter an (unnecessary) additional wait of up to 99 minutes, in addition to the minimum connection time, at up to three selected interchange stations. That will, in practice, often mean a "connection" time of two hours or so, given the fact that not all lines have Underground-like frequency!

Furthermore, if you are to travel via an unusual route then it is probably worthwhile purchasing the ticket through a good retailer such as TrainSplit/TrainsCanBeCheaper as you can be sure they will render you knowledgeable assistance if it came to any dispute regarding the route taken. Other retailers' customer services simply wouldn't know what to do with a difficult case such as this and almost certainly wouldn't help you properly. Of course it may be that the route is not accepted by TrainSplit/TCBC - and that you can therefore, as a matter of practicality, only book through another given retailer!

Ultimately most anomalies such as this are able to be quickly fixed if the relevant fare-setting TOC (or RDG, if it's a Routeing Guide/appropriate Routeing Point/easement issue) gets wind of the problem. Hence, even if you are travelling on a valid route, it may be worthwhile trying to minimise the number of times the ticket is likely to be inspected, simply to minimise the risk that the anomaly is discovered and reported. That might for example mean using an unbarriered station instead of a larger station, or using a train which you know does not normally have a guard/ticket examiner (though of course there may be RPIs).
 

kel-green

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Thanks for your help and advise with this. I have looked at this again and there are currently rail replacement buses at the destination station. If I try to use this route when there is no engineering, it doesn't allow it, which suggests it may be temporary. I cannot see anywhere that says that is a permitted route during the engineering though.
 

Intermodal

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Perhaps there is a programming logic 'error' in the website - perhaps if a bus 'calls at' a station, the computer does not equate that to 'calling at' a station for the purposes of a permitted route - so you are not going 'via' the station in the eyes of the computer. An interesting one!
 

JB_B

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Thanks for your help and advise with this. I have looked at this again and there are currently rail replacement buses at the destination station. If I try to use this route when there is no engineering, it doesn't allow it, which suggests it may be temporary. I cannot see anywhere that says that is a permitted route during the engineering though.

There may not be an engineering related easement but any journey legs by replacement bus won't count towards the calculated route mileage. That sometimes makes routes temporarily valid by the shortest route (+3 mile) rule.
 

alistairlees

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Ok Thanks. The reason why I ask is that I have noticed something unusual that appears on both National Rail Enquires and the TOC's own website. The routing guide seems to imply that the ticket I want to use will not be valid for my route, however, I can get it show in the journey planners on these sites. I do not what specific route this is for on the public forum, just in case I have stumbled across a 'loophole'.
I'd be interested to know what route this is to see what's happening. Would you be able to PM me please if that is what you would prefer to do? Thanks
 

furlong

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'Not via' is a strange beast as it's documented definition doesn't seem to be what a reasonable person might expect, and instead almost all the time the industry relies on everyone overriding that with a dose of common sense, but between the two extremes of interpretation you can get some odd looking ones considered valid by the industry. (The classic example was the industry requiring you to travel via London on some 'Not via London' tickets - in some cases the industry treats 'Not' as meaning 'also not' with alternative routes e.g. shortest/cheaper/only route allowed that do pass through the named station.) 'Not via' has been a total mess since day one of the routeing guide, in other words, and the new tickets with longer route descriptions lose some of the nuances and make the problem even worse.
 

100andthirty

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Apropos 'not via' and 'common sense', my last season ticket (a long time ago admittedly) said 'South Acton to Leighton Buzzard via London not Doncaster'. The LB booking office person agreed that if was ridiculous but it was what came up on his system.
 

yorkie

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Thanks for your help and advise with this. I have looked at this again and there are currently rail replacement buses at the destination station. If I try to use this route when there is no engineering, it doesn't allow it, which suggests it may be temporary. I cannot see anywhere that says that is a permitted route during the engineering though.
If a rail replacement bus is involved at the start or end of the journey, the bus section is stripped out and ignored for the Routeing Guide check.
Apropos 'not via' and 'common sense', my last season ticket (a long time ago admittedly) said 'South Acton to Leighton Buzzard via London not Doncaster'. The LB booking office person agreed that if was ridiculous but it was what came up on his system.
The only routeing I see currently is "Any Permitted"
 
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