RPI ID Check

[choochoochoo]

As a passenger, if I doubt the authenticity of an RPI, am I allowed to ask to view their ID and call the TOCs RP office to verify they are who they say they are ?

 

[185143]

The answer to can you view their ID is definately yes. AFAIK, they will usually produce their ID as soon as they speak to you. (Assuming the conversation is more serious than 'tickets please'.?)

As for being able to call the TOCs RP office, I am unsure.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

 

[Bletchleyite]

You could certainly call their customer services department.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

As a passenger, if I doubt the authenticity of an RPI, am I allowed to ask to view their ID and call the TOCs RP office to verify they are who they say they are ?

And were you in such a situation to doubt the authenticity of an RPI? Were you pulled up/aside?

 

[choochoochoo]

Not been pulled aside.

But with the introduction of CPC payment, I don't like waving my card on any random person's card reader just because they are wearing a uniform !!

 

[Monty]

What you should be asking for isn't ID per say all staff are issued with the same indentity card (certainly the case on SWT) and there is no way to tell that person is a genuine RPI/RPO/RPA by looking at it. What you should be asking for is their authorised collectors pass or warrant badge, you are entitled to ask for it and they have to present it on request. When I was an RPA I just used to wear it on my lanyard to save people the hassle of asking.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not been pulled aside.

But with the introduction of CPC payment, I don't like waving my card on any random person's card reader just because they are wearing a uniform !!

If you made a payment (I'm assuming for a PF or ticket; they don't collect other payments like out of court settlements/"Penalty Fakes" on the spot) to an RPI, you would expect to receive a ticket and receipt for doing so.

If you did not receive one, it's easy enough to call your bank and dispute the transaction.

 

[choochoochoo]

Cheers Monty. I shall ask for those items in the future. However, I'm still in the position of not knowing what an authentic warrant badge/ collectors pass looks like. Hence why I was wondering whether I could call their office.

Neil Williams, I would rather nip the problem at source and thus discourage anybody from fraudulently taking my card details, rather than dispute it with my bank a month down the line.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A month down the line?

If I felt my card has been used fraudulently, I would be phoning them on the spot, not a month down the line.

But notably when there has been fraud on my account (or genuine usage that looked like fraud, e.g. when I have purchased a particularly high value item) it's actually the bank's computer that has noticed it first and phoned me with an automated call to have me confirm the "odd" transactions!

 

[choochoochoo]

A month down the line?

If I felt my card has been used fraudulently, I would be phoning them on the spot, not a month down the line.

But notably when there has been fraud on my account (or genuine usage that looked like fraud, e.g. when I have purchased a particularly high value item) it's actually the bank's computer that has noticed it first and phoned me with an automated call to have me confirm the "odd" transactions!

Maybe I got the wrong idea on how CPC works and what data can be taken by a card reader. My thinking was that they fraudster would get enough card details from a reader to do transactions at a later date. After harvesting mine and a whole train-full of cards.

Usually banks are quite good, but I've also had fraudulent transactions that have gone unnoticed by their automatic detection systems. Hence my apprehension to wave my card over any random card reader.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe I got the wrong idea on how CPC works and what data can be taken by a card reader. My thinking was that they fraudster would get enough card details from a reader to do transactions at a later date. After harvesting mine and a whole train-full of cards.

Oh, I see, you mean someone doing "Oyster" validity checks? I suppose that is possible, but unlikely.

 

[tsr]

Yes, if someone is performing a check of tickets or other evidence of payment, they should have ID and it should specifically identify them. Beyond this, there is, however, no provision within the Byelaws for any specific method that a customer may use to verify ID, and moreover there is no provision whatsoever for them to refuse to present a ticket (etc. etc.) until they can verify it. Imagine if every faredodger in the land got wind of the fact that wherever there's dodgy mobile signal, they can delay a ticket check until they can ring customer services, thereby being able to jump off at the next stop with impunity! It would be absurd.

Byelaw 24(3)

An authorised person who is exercising any power conferred on him by any of these Byelaws shall produce a form of identification when requested to do so and such identification shall state the name of his employer and shall contain a means of identifying the authorised person.

However, given your concerns, perhaps I can highlight some things you shoudl look for during an inspection including contactless readers. This may give you an idea as to whether or not they are genuine. Contactless cards on trains should only be read with a Revenue Inspection Device (RID) which is a rectangular grey card reader with a touchscreen and yellow keypad. It may be in a case but if so, this can be removed to show the accreditation markings from the card issuers, which can be found on the back.

Aside from what these devices look like, they are also checked against a remote manifest and hotlist of lost/stolen devices periodically during use, and any which are lost or stolen will be blocked from use and can be remotely deactivated. In addition, any such device also requires login details unique to the inspector which is supplied (and, if needed, withdrawn) by the TOC or TfL.

Lastly, the user of the RID can't actually see any card details at all, and only the back office system has the ability to work out how to charge someone. I am reliably informed that it would be mind-numbingly difficult and tedious to actually get the system to display any details of use to a fraudster.

Hopefully this is of some use as reassurance that if the correct device is being used, there is little potential for any fraud. From a sensible point of view, there are far worse things to be concerned about; I should imagine that statistically it is far more likely that you will be the victim of a pickpocket on a busy concourse, than someone with a TOC uniform and card reader who is out to defraud you. Lastly, of course, don't forget that a surprising number of trains have either on or off duty police officers and railway staff on them. Both would be quite likely to pick up something suspicious and then the culprit could very quickly end up in significantly hot water! Many such railway staff would be involved frequently in revenue checks, and for any operating in the London area, it would only take the briefest of moments to observe that something was amiss relating to smartcard or contactless checks.

 

[choochoochoo]

tsr, Thanks for such a comprehensive reply

This does help with my major concerns regarding CPC validation. Having heard stories of fraudsters with readers stealing card data in bars/clubs by just putting the device next to the victim's pockets, I figured a phoney RPI with a home-made card reader could do something similar.

I will definitely be inspecting the RID before letting anybody touch my card. Appreciate the reassurances too, but not sure about the number of on/off duty rail/police staff on most trains. Still see many passengers displaying anti-social behaviour/open alcohol containers/vaping and nobody batting an eyelid !!

 

[island]

Not in the least bit being flippant here (as I work in banking and understand your concern) but if you are worried about your contactless card details being compromised why not use Oyster?

 

[najaB]

Having heard stories of fraudsters with readers stealing card data in bars/clubs by just putting the device next to the victim's pockets, I figured a phoney RPI with a home-made card reader could do something similar.

Such stories, much like the early ones of Mark Twain's death, have been greatly exaggerated.

 

[Realfish]

Such stories, much like the early ones of Mark Twain's death, have been greatly exaggerated.

...but not unknown, and as this thread from 2012 reminds us, people will try it on.

'Travelling home the other day on merseyrail and after leaving Liverpool central, some young ish man comes walking through the carriage door of a 507 which makes an obvious clink when shut. This tends to make passengers reach for their ticket as they normally think that it is a ticket inspector.

He claimed to be an inspector (which he wasn't) and people were showing their tickets to him. I decided to follow this mysterious man through to the front carriage and he had found a woman without a ticket. I don't think he was aware that I had followed him at this point and he pulled out a home made form (a4 pronted) with the merseyrail logo on. The ticketless woman was told that she could pay her 20 pound fine on the spot. This is where I intervened and asked to see his identification. He pulled out a scrumpled piece of paper with a picture of him and a merseyrail logo (no name). I therefore threatened to tell the guard if he did not leave at the next station.

I am unsure whether I did the right thing by supporting the fare evader. I take it that it is an offence to pretend to be an rpi.'

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=73870

 

[James Wake]

On my regular train into work today, an On Board Supervisor checked tickets at Three Bridges. Having read this thread yesterday, I wasn't sure if he was particularly professional. I didn't ask him for ID, however a few things stood out:
1. He had a large bag with him, maybe containing an Avantix machine
2. He had no name badge on or any visible identification that he was a member of revenue trained staff.
3. His appearance was not great: a top button undone and not wearing a tie, but he did have on a Southern jumper.
3. A passenger on my table presented a Key Card, but he didn't scan it, he just gave the thumbs up, I thought machines were available for Conductors and OBS staff to check Key Cards. No-one questioned him, so I think it was because of his slightly scruffy appearance that may have put a small doubt into my mind.

 

[AlterEgo]

...but not unknown, and as this thread from 2012 reminds us, people will try it on.

'Travelling home the other day on merseyrail and after leaving Liverpool central, some young ish man comes walking through the carriage door of a 507 which makes an obvious clink when shut. This tends to make passengers reach for their ticket as they normally think that it is a ticket inspector.

He claimed to be an inspector (which he wasn't) and people were showing their tickets to him. I decided to follow this mysterious man through to the front carriage and he had found a woman without a ticket. I don't think he was aware that I had followed him at this point and he pulled out a home made form (a4 pronted) with the merseyrail logo on. The ticketless woman was told that she could pay her 20 pound fine on the spot. This is where I intervened and asked to see his identification. He pulled out a scrumpled piece of paper with a picture of him and a merseyrail logo (no name). I therefore threatened to tell the guard if he did not leave at the next station.

I am unsure whether I did the right thing by supporting the fare evader. I take it that it is an offence to pretend to be an rpi.'

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=73870

But they didn't steal anyone's card details via a contactless reader, nor were they equipped to do so. It appears that person was trying to charge people £20 penalty fares. Cash in hand. There were other stories of similar sightings that went round at the time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But they didn't steal anyone's card details via a contactless reader, nor were they equipped to do so. It appears that person was trying to charge people £20 penalty fares. Cash in hand. There were other stories of similar sightings that went round at the time.

And a scam that the victims would have avoided by having a valid ticket (I doubt many of these were clever enough to attempt to pull people up on technicalities).

I find it hard to feel sorry for them