Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
That seems a common practice on flights in the US but I have never heard of it in the UK.
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Rules about reserved seats
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That seems a common practice on flights in the US but I have never heard of it in the UK.
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I've done it on a bus in London when they were running bendy buses. I offered the passenger in the front single seat 50p and it was accepted.
extendedpaul
Member
On three of my last four journeys on Great Western Railway, all off peak, there were no displayed seat reservations. On two of the trains the conductor announced this and apologised, one gave a reason of it being a different carriage formation than intended, the other just apologised. Both said there was plenty of room for all passengers or words to that effect.
On my journey last week, certainly from Newport where I boarded, there was no mention at all of the absence of reservations, just the usual welcome on board and the calling pattern which did not include Didcot Parkway. At Bristol Parkway a couple of ladies boarded who spoke to the two men sitting near me in airline seats and showed their reservations. They were most insistent that they HAD to sit there or would "get into trouble". The two men just got up immediately moved to the two identical seats immediately in front and everybody was happy.
While I found the incident mildly amusing it does show how passengers, especially occasional travellers, can be unsettled by the lack of marked reservations. There was no ticket check or sight of the conductor at all.
On my journey last week, certainly from Newport where I boarded, there was no mention at all of the absence of reservations, just the usual welcome on board and the calling pattern which did not include Didcot Parkway. At Bristol Parkway a couple of ladies boarded who spoke to the two men sitting near me in airline seats and showed their reservations. They were most insistent that they HAD to sit there or would "get into trouble". The two men just got up immediately moved to the two identical seats immediately in front and everybody was happy.
While I found the incident mildly amusing it does show how passengers, especially occasional travellers, can be unsettled by the lack of marked reservations. There was no ticket check or sight of the conductor at all.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It does of course not help that VTWC have stupid posters up threatening people with Advances who don't sit in their booked seats with all sorts (then none of their guards enforce it).
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Seems to have been removed as you say! I wonder why?
I think that's a bit unfair. It's common sense to you and others who have experience of these things, but most people will just think "I've reserved seat C12, I have a reservation coupon to prove it, therefore I have the right to sit in C12". I don't think that you can reasonably assert a lack of common sense just because they don't spend their time contemplating the impact of allowing reservations to stand when not displayed. We all spend all day making reasonable assumptions about all sorts of things, some of which will turn out to be wrong, but nobody has the time to thoroughly subject them all to a rigorous analysis.
It is common sense to anyone with knowledge that UK trains allow walk-up travel in any vacant seat.
I'll accept that in the rare event of someone who thinks trains are reservation compulsory might think that; e.g. perhaps someone who is used to air travel or TGVs in France and rarely travels on UK domestic trains, but this would be a tiny proportion of passengers.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Don't forget that it is VTWC policy, and I believe XC as well, so people who do their long distance rail travel primarily on those two TOCs will also think this is the case everywhere.
Intermodal
Established Member
I'm usually on your side with things but I must say I do think the average Joe would believe they are valid even if not shown. That's what my experience is, anyway.
I doubt that; Maybe my experience differs from yours but I've been on numerous trains before without reservations and the vast majority of people have accepted that means people cannot be turfed out of seats. In my experience, those who claimed otherwise were quite clearly less frequent passengers than those who accepted the fact.
Maybe, but they'd clearly be wrong, and what can anyone do? If the person states that they are simply occupying a seat not marked as reserved and there are no reservations displayed, no-one can make them move. It would be morally wrong to ask them to move anyway in my opinion but absolutely nothing could physically be done. So it's an utterly bonkers policy.
XC are so oddball, my default position would be to question just about any policy they have to be honest.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I would agree in the context of how reservations work now[1]. However, what you have to consider is that they did have a reasonable expectation of their seats being available and are right to be annoyed at the situation, so what is also needed is good staff communication, which is far too often absent. VTWC guards often don't even make announcements about it. Without the stickers, I would suggest that a clear announcement of the issue and the policy to be applied should be made once at the station once the doors have been opened and people have started boarding, and once again once the train has left the platform on departure, and once boarding at a terminus every couple of minutes.
[1] I personally advocate a change to that, but that's one for another thread.
The problem is that you're expecting people to think beyond "I have a reservation, therefore it's my seat". If you were to point out to them why that doesn't work in practice when reservations are not displayed, I think that some (most? Not sure) would concede that the reasoning is valid. But as a species, we're not in the habit of routinely second-guessing our initial 'reasonable' assumptions, because as far as we're concerned they're reasonable and so we can stop thinking about it.
This is sound behaviour from the perspective of evolutionary biology. If you walk into your cave and spot a bear you don't stand there questioning your initial impulse to run away, you just leg it and climb the nearest tree*. So perhaps you're right, but I strongly suspect that if you put the question to a poll, you'd find that the majority of people think that their reservation entitles them to that seat, full stop.
* I have a horrible feeling that some bears can climb trees, in which case please assume that your cave is occupied by a crocodile instead. If crocodiles can also climb trees then I give up, and will cheerfully submit to being eaten.
If you asked regular passengers, I doubt many would say that.
But if you asked people who rarely - if ever - travelled by train and had experience of flying etc, then maybe they would, but as I said above, that's going to be a small proportion of passengers.
But if you reversed the question, and asked if someone who had turned up, bought a ticket, and sat in an apparently unreserved coach, I think close to 100% of respondents would not be expected to be told to move!
GWR conductors if no seat reservations are applied (which is happening a lot these days on the Class 800s!) often just state via the PA system that passengers should just sit in any free seat i.e. they do not imply that you should try to "claim" your booked seat.
My last LNER ticket proclaims "Valid only with reservations" and the reservation ticket proclaims "Valid only with ticket 83497". This is often the case with the advance tickets I usually buy. Both are normally inspected during the journey. Seems a bit pointless then.
Because the purpose of the reservation is to state which train you're booked on to primarily.
Hmm, I think we have had very different experiences. I've witnessed several over the years that have gone something like this:
Passenger 1: I'm sorry, but I think you're in my seat.
Passenger 2: What? It's not marked as reserved.
Passenger 1: Well, no, but here's my reservation.
Passenger 2: Oh for god's sake, fine, give me a minute to get my stuff together.
Passenger 1: Sorry about that. Thanks.
I've never witnessed:
Passenger 1: I'm sorry, but I think you're in my seat.
Passenger 2: There are no reservations displayed, so all reservations are revoked.
I'm not saying you're wrong. Perhaps that happens all the time, but I've never seen it. I think that perhaps I have lower expectations of humanity than you do.
I commuted for months on cheapo advances on South TPE, where reservations were regularly cancelled. As much as I hated not being able to get my seat, it was a fact of life and I sucked it up. Even with supporting announcements, I've been shouted and screamed at when fellow passengers have took offence to this sentiment and I'm sat in 'their seat', or when a preceeding service was cancelled and passengers think their reservation carries over to whichever service they carry, even on a different company!
Most of my journeys on reservable trains are on TPE and LNER. LNER pretty much always announce it. With TPE it depends on the Guard (TPE Guards range from absolutely excellent to totally invisible and mute).
I've had other experiences on other companies, e.g. on EMT a passenger trying to turf someone out of a totally unreserved coach. Passengers concluded they were probably in the wrong coach but everyone around agreed that no labels equals no reservation anyway.
If I'm on XC and the Guard tries to enforce invisible reservations I'll make my feelings known to them and ask them some questions but I've only ever experienced this once and the Guard was unable to give any sort of satisfactory justification for their announcement. I've not experienced this with any other operator.
Yes there are some people who do this, but then there are people who consider their reservations to be valid if their train is cancelled and they have to get a different service; it doesn't make them right. And when I hear such people talking it's pretty obvious they are occasional passengers rather than commuters/regulars.
Deafdoggie
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XC always honour seat reservation, marked or unmarked. But I suspect that is motivated by the fact that they give you money if you don't get your seat! In their defence they always announce this policy after each station call if the reservations are not working. Twice they didn't honour my reservations (in the early days of the policy) and gave me my money back, since then it has always been clearly announced if seat reservations are not working, and if their is an unreserved coach. And the TM enforces on his trip through the train.
Now if this is the best policy is an entirely different argument, but it is nice to have a clear policy, and well enforced.
Now if this is the best policy is an entirely different argument, but it is nice to have a clear policy, and well enforced.
ForTheLoveOf
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I think I have to buck against the trend here!
My view is that, if you haven't reserved a seat but reservations are available on the train you're catching, you can't assume you are entitled to, or will indeed have, a seat throughout your journey. If you do end up having a seat - whether that be because you sit somewhere that you think doesn't have a reservation for your part of the train's journey, or because you sit somewhere that someone has reserved but hasn't turned up for, I don't think you can complain if someone turns up who has reserved the seat you're sitting in. That's simply the 'cost' of walk-up travel being permissible, and the 'cost' of not having a reservation yourself!
I have been in both boats myself - being sat in an apparently unreserved seat, and being asked to move out by the holder of the seat reservation, as well as vice versa. In both situations it is my understanding that the norm is that the passenger without the reservation must move. I have certainly never experienced or overhead any arguments to the contrary. There is often slight grumbling from the passenger who has had to move (more often than not complaining at the TOC), but I really don't get where the idea comes from that a passenger without a reservation is entitled to a seat someone else has reserved!
Obviously, if the guard/TM announces that reservations are suspended, all this doesn't apply. But I don't see why a legitimate reservation holder shouldn't be entitled to their seat, merely because someone else without a reservation has decided to sit there.
My view is that, if you haven't reserved a seat but reservations are available on the train you're catching, you can't assume you are entitled to, or will indeed have, a seat throughout your journey. If you do end up having a seat - whether that be because you sit somewhere that you think doesn't have a reservation for your part of the train's journey, or because you sit somewhere that someone has reserved but hasn't turned up for, I don't think you can complain if someone turns up who has reserved the seat you're sitting in. That's simply the 'cost' of walk-up travel being permissible, and the 'cost' of not having a reservation yourself!
I have been in both boats myself - being sat in an apparently unreserved seat, and being asked to move out by the holder of the seat reservation, as well as vice versa. In both situations it is my understanding that the norm is that the passenger without the reservation must move. I have certainly never experienced or overhead any arguments to the contrary. There is often slight grumbling from the passenger who has had to move (more often than not complaining at the TOC), but I really don't get where the idea comes from that a passenger without a reservation is entitled to a seat someone else has reserved!
Obviously, if the guard/TM announces that reservations are suspended, all this doesn't apply. But I don't see why a legitimate reservation holder shouldn't be entitled to their seat, merely because someone else without a reservation has decided to sit there.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Just put it on notices throughout the train and it will be properly clear.
Or (and this is aimed as much at Virgin and EMT) replace the reservations system on the 22x with one that actually works. They are failed more often than not.
The problem is that without reservations being marked you get a stupid game of musical chairs. There is rarely enough space in the unreserved coach for all walk-ups.
ForTheLoveOf
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True, but then the passenger without a reservation has to accept either musical chairs or standing. They don't have a reservation, so they're not entitled to a seat, end of!
Booking sites could but the extra money it would cost the TOC to make the change isn't worth it. Anyone who uses the Fujitsu/RJIS system can do it too. But it's extra hassle.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
No, but given that they can't get a reservation "on spec" it's rather raw that they can't avoid sitting in a reserved seat, isn't it?
ForTheLoveOf
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What do you mean "on spec"?
The argument is one based on practicality really: on a long-distance train with multiple stops, attempting to enforce 'invisible' reservations can lead to people repeatedly moving seats, with associated inconvenience for themselves and other passengers. This also has the downside of meaning that the likelihood of sitting is correlated with confidence/assertiveness: more assertive people will demand their reserved seat, whereas less assertive people won't. Maybe that's just the way of the world, but it doesn't seem right to me.
The second experience happened to me once when I boarded a train from York to Edinburgh. I got on and went to what I thought was my booked seat and there was a woman sat in it, so I said something like "excuse me, I think this is my booked seat", and she responded by informing me that reservations had been cancelled, but she would let me sit in the empty window seat. At the time I didn't realise that reservations only applied with a visible ticket, I do now since visiting this forum.
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