Running late - don't stop

[Failed Unit]

Couple of things that TOC often do, but I was wondering how it effects the PPM that is published.

1. Terminate short.
East Coast operators often do this to Glasgow services when problems happen. This is fine for people heading to Glasgow as they can get Scotrail service, Motherwell gets the pleasure of a coach. Going the other way however you may not get to Queen Street in time for the train that should have taken you South.

Lets just take for example
0900 London - Glasgow service it gets terminated at Edinburgh, is it classed as cancelled as far as the number of trains ran per day is concerned? Or does the operator fudge it because it ran most of the way so it is only recorded as more than 10 minutes late?
The return service 1550 from Glasgow now has no set so starts from Edinburgh at 1700. It arrives at KX on time. Again is this recorded as cancelled so East Coast have 2 cancelled trains that day?

2. Don't bother stopping at most stations.
This is a favourite of many operators. The Moorgate - Welwyn service (select local example) is running late so lets run it non-stop between Finsbury Park and Welwyn Garden City. It has ran the entire length of the journey, it is on time (now). Would the train count as cancelled on the PPM as for the majority of its users in this example it might as well have been.

Both of these weapons are used by TOC's, Both cause a lot of passengers a lot of delay, but I guess it most be to the benefit of the TOC's to do so. In example 2, I really hope it is treated the same as the service been totally cancelled but I suspect it is not so TOC's use it as a way of fudging figures.

Anyone know for sure how these are treated?

 

[RPM]

I think in both cases it is treated as a Partial Cancellation which does count against the TOC but not quite as severely as a complete cancellation.

I know it infuriates many people but terminating short or cancelling stops is the right thing to do sometimes if it allows the timetable to recover. At the expense of worsening the inconvenience for a few passengers many more people can avoid being delayed. Controllers have to consider the bigger picture even if it means making a tough call.

 

[Failed Unit]

I think in both cases it is treated as a Partial Cancellation which does count against the TOC but not quite as severely as a complete cancellation.

I know it infuriates many people but terminating short or cancelling stops is the right thing to do sometimes if it allows the timetable to recover. At the expense of worsening the inconvenience for a few passengers many more people can avoid being delayed. Controllers have to consider the bigger picture even if it means making a tough call.

I understand that sometimes it does save a lot of time, for example if in my Finsbury example it took place at say 0630 having train out of place for the return working would be a nightmare. But the same effect would happen with 100% cancellation and running the service ECS.

That was really why I was asking when the TOC are quoting say

92.2% of services ran on time
99.9% of all service ran

Would that service that skipped stations count?

Try to use some maths to make things clear.

You run 100 trains per day 1 is cancelled the 99% of your service ran.
You run 100 trains per day but don't stop 2 of them at all their booked stations would that count as a 99% of your services ran again. (ie should be 98% but as it was only partually cancelled it is only counted as half a cancellation)?

I also noticed that the companies on charters like you to have your ticket gripped, Interesting when they skip stop how do you prove you were intending to catch the service that skipped or of you were intending to get the service you were forced to use instead. I guess as this is the railway industry they will assume the later.

Thanks for your response.

 

[jon0844]

I can see why they need to run a train like that fast, as it has a relatively quick turnaround and to not do so would obviously mean the service BACK to Moorgate starts late (or doesn't start at all).

Do they actually run it fast and let people stay on, or terminate it at Finsbury Park and THEN run it fast? Either way - they need to get it to the destination if it's working straight away to come back.

 

[A60K]

Do they actually run it fast and let people stay on, or terminate it at Finsbury Park and THEN run it fast? Either way - they need to get it to the destination if it's working straight away to come back.

I think there is or was a rule that all trains between Finsbury Park and Moorgate and v.v. must run in passenger service rather than ECS, which would explain why it doesn't simply get cancelled throughout. I don't know whether it would have conveyed passengers north from Finsbury Park though.

On lines into Liverpool Street I've noticed however that sometimes if a train is running late it might be sent fast passenger to destination, especially contra-peak, stopping only at the LU interchange on the way - Seven Sisters, Tottenham Hale or Walthamstow. That's a bit better than running ECS all the way, and incurs little time penalty.

 

[surreysprite]

I had a scenario last year where I was getting the 11.59 from Woking to Walton-On-Thames, which it said was running 10 mins late. The service changed on the departure screens to not be stopping at Walton or Weybrige even though the station staff was sure it would as it was scheduled to. The person I was meeting at Walton said the display there said the service was cancelled.

In this instance the 'wool had been pulled' over the passengers eyes and the station staff at Woking, all because of a 10 minute delay.

I understand SWT run a primarily commuter railway but with this sort of behaviour it's a suprise they have any customers during the off peak.

 

[embers25]

I can top the Walton example. As mentioned before SWT often run non stop from London to Southampton to make up time but during the Vauxhall chaos yesterday morning they officially excelled themselves running the 0530 non-stop from Clapham Junction to Bournemouth missing Wimbledon, Woking, Basingstoke, Winchester, Eastleigh, Southampton Airport and Central, Totton, Brockenhurst, Sway, New Milton, Hinton Admiral, Christchurch and Pokesdown! Admittedly it was so late that the 0630 was right behind and so it probably made sense but it must still be a record for SWT.

 

[yorkie]

If there's a train right behind it makes sense. And if a train is doing Finsbury Pk - Welwyn non-stop in the morning peak, meaning a packed train can be on time, then that's better than the return working being late and messing up the morning peak services to London for everyone. I'd like to see common sense and overall customer benefit to be considered more important than statistics.

 

[Minstral25]

It happens a lot on Southern/FCC, especially with Trains to Redhill being put through the Quarry Route which avoids Redhill Station to catch up time.

Classic occasion recently, all trains were messed up and a Victoria Train had been cancelled and the following Victoria delayed, the 6:56 to Luton Via London Bridge was about 10 minutes late. Platform announcer was telling passengers to get on 6:56 and change at East Croydon. As I went into the information booth to check, he was staring at his screen saying "oh dear it has disappeared" (or something like that) - the train had been diverted at the last minute to save time - about 5-600 people waiting for any train were told it had been diverted by a very unhappy announcer who didn't exactly hide his dismay. Don't think the passengers were that happy either!

 

[royaloak]

On SWT one of the ones that annoy me is the habit of running late Shepperton or Kingston rounder services fast from Waterloo to Norbiton which means that anybody from Vauxhall, Clapham jn, Earlsfield, Wimbledon, Raynes Park and New Malden doesn't have a chance to catch it, where-as if it ran fast to Raynes Park they could catch any available train to there for onward transport on their normal service which may make up some of the lost time. And I do appreciate that the late running train COULD be routed on the down fast line then onto the Kingston line at the junction just to the south of New Malden which would mean it couldn't call there but I have NEVER known it too happen. Just running fast to one station less would make it easier for the passengers to get to where they want to go.

 

[dk1]

To be honest when these pines/miss-stops happen & even though passengers are not happy, when you explain to them, all but those up their own backsides usually understand.

 

[royaloak]

But wouldnt it be better if you could say "catch this train to XXXXX and you will be able to catch the (late running) original train, rather than tell them to sit on the platform for half an hour and watch the train fly through!

 

[shinkansen1966]

When trains run non-stop or some other random schedule to make up time, is this done more to make the TOC's punctuality figures look good, or for genuine operational benefit ?

Either way, passengers loose out.

 

[theblackwatch]

When trains run non-stop or some other random schedule to make up time, is this done more to make the TOC's punctuality figures look good, or for genuine operational benefit ?

Either way, passengers loose out.

Not necessarily - passengers often gain. As an example, just before Christmas, I was going to Doncaster for the evening and caught a train from my local station to Leeds, where I had an 18 minute connection for my train to Doncaster. The service was 22 minutes late when I boarded, but due to it missing out several all the stops between Harrogate and Leeds it actually arrived at Leeds 8 minutes late, and I made my connection. Had it not done so I doubt I would have. A few people travelling to intermediate shacks had to disembark at Harrogate and wait for the next train (12 mintes behind, not a huge wait), but most people were going through to Leeds so only a minority were inconvenienced.

There is another factor to bear in mind in this example, which is that the unit only has 7 minutes (17.22 to 17.29) booked in Leeds before it works its next train, a peak hour train out of Leeds with around 150-200 people on it. Running fast to Leeds meant it arrived at 17.30, and with a quick turnround left at 17.33, a mere 4 minutes late. Had it called at all stops, the story would have been quite different, and the 150-200 people would have been more seriously delayed.

 

[Oswyntail]

...on the other hand, the passengers at the intermediate stations (who admittedly would have been few, if any) were denied their train, and might have taken their car. Which could be one drop in the ocean of feeling that services on that line are unreliable - which, in turn, leads to people using alternatives, and the line becomes unprofitable, and the line closes. OK, I realise this is pretty extreme, and just illustrates how complex an issue it is.

 

[surreysprite]

I think one issue which seems to be fairly common amongst this is communication.

The passengers need to know why the TOC is doing this and what the benefit is, otherwise it seems the TOC is being underhanded and doing it for financial benefit. This is certianly the way i felt with the SWT examples.

 

[Capybara]

Not necessarily - passengers often gain. As an example, just before Christmas, I was going to Doncaster for the evening and caught a train from my local station to Leeds, where I had an 18 minute connection for my train to Doncaster. The service was 22 minutes late when I boarded, but due to it missing out several all the stops between Harrogate and Leeds it actually arrived at Leeds 8 minutes late, and I made my connection. Had it not done so I doubt I would have. A few people travelling to intermediate shacks had to disembark at Harrogate and wait for the next train (12 mintes behind, not a huge wait), but most people were going through to Leeds so only a minority were inconvenienced.

There is another factor to bear in mind in this example, which is that the unit only has 7 minutes (17.22 to 17.29) booked in Leeds before it works its next train, a peak hour train out of Leeds with around 150-200 people on it. Running fast to Leeds meant it arrived at 17.30, and with a quick turnround left at 17.33, a mere 4 minutes late. Had it called at all stops, the story would have been quite different, and the 150-200 people would have been more seriously delayed.

As a frequent user of the line over the years I was intrigued that by missing out six stops the train could pick up 14 minutes. Then I checked the timetable and found what I hadn't realised, despite often using the line, that 11 minutes are allowed between Burley Park and Leeds! I just wonder what the thoughts of passengers waiting over 20 minutes for their train at Hornbeam Park and Pannal must have been to see their train approaching, only to go straight through. I wonder how much actual time was saved by not stopping. I'm pleased you caught your connection, but it does seem a case of a train being made to arrive almost on time at the expense of the timely delivery of some passengers - those for intermediate stations after Harrogate would have arrived at least half an hour late, as would those boarding intermediate trains bound for stations to Leeds.

 

[Greenback]

Black Watch's example is interesting because it deals with a situation where the train is travelling in the opposite direction to the peak flow of passengers at that time. If the decision had not been taken to omit stops the peak service out of Leeds would have been around 20 minutes late departing, assuming it wasn't further delayed by waiting for a path across a junction or into a platform at Leeds. In this instance I would say that the correct decision was taken, given that there was aservice not far behind and that the majority of passengers would have been either travelling into Leeds, or out of Leeds at 17.29.

The average time saved by not having to slow for a station stop, stop, operate the doors, allow passengers on and off, close the doors, give the right away and then accelerate up to the line speed again must be easily 2 minutes per stop. On the South Wales mainline, trains are allowed 22 mins between Bridgend and Cardiff non stop. Those calling at Pencoed, llanharan and Pontyclun are given 31 minutes - 3 minutes per extra stop!

 

[The Planner]

To split hairs its actually 21½ minutes, 19½ minute running time with 2 minutes engineering allowance for a HST (before the "padding " argument starts off, that HAS to be in the schedule).

It must be an odd stopper that gets 31 minutes, the ones Im looking at take 29 including ½ minute dwells at the shacks. You are also comparing an HST with a pacer !!

 

[royaloak]

You are also comparing an HST with a pacer !!

Now that is something I NEVER thought I would read

 

[Greenback]

I'm going from the public timetable, so don;t have access to the half minutes!

The 2138 from Bridgend is shown as arriving at 2210 (32 minutes!) and the 1843 arrives Cardiff at 1913 (30 minutes - all M-F) but you are correct, most are shown as 29 mins!

It's not as simpe, as comparing an HST with a Pacer! The FGW services are HST's, but the ATW services can be 175's, 158's, 150's or Pacers! It always seems to be a Pacer on the old Swanline services, but there can be a variety of unit running up to Maesteg. Interestingly, the 175/158 services get 22 mins like the HST's...

All this just goes to show that a train can save 2 minutes quite easily by not calling at a station!

 

[SWT Driver]

Needless to say you have to allow timings for the slowest (accelerating) unit, otherwise you would get delays.