Running out of sand

[DJL]

So I was turfed off a train today, along with many many other passengers after the train apparently ran out of sand.

The train was Sevenoaks to Blackfriars and beyond. When I I boarded at St Mary Cray The train was already about 8 minutes late.
We crawled out of the station at less than walking pace.
At Beckenham Hill the train was clearly in trouble. It felt like the emergency brakes were on and yet we were slow to decelerate.

Fortunately we came to a stop just short of the station and then crawled in.
The driver then announced that the train had run out of sand and would terminate at the next station (Bellingham).

I know that sand is used to improve adhesion and obviously running out can not be a good thing in these conditions.

So my question is how the train managed to run out of sand. Is it possible that the train left Sevenoaks with a full complement of sand and yet it still ran out just 11 stops later? Or did someone fail to check the sand level and top it up when it should have been done?

I have no idea how much sand a 319 can store or how much is used.

Just to be clear - I am not complain about the cancellation - I'd rather be late than in a train crash!

 

[A-driver]

Sand can only be refilled at depots where the supply is kept and so if the train has been out of the depot for a while it may well have run out. Plus yesterday was one of the worst days for poor adhesion in a number if years and sanders would have been working overtime so there is a good chance it ran out. The only way to check sand levels is by looking in the sand boxes on 319s so until the driver applied the brakes and realised no sand was being distributed they wouldn't know it was empty. Unfortunately we are talking a lot of sand needed to refill the box so you can't really just keep it on platforms, plus you need access to underneath the sole bar to refill it.

 

[Moonshot]

This very issue was mentioned in an RAIB inquiry some time ago......if I can remember which report it was , I ll post the link

 

[asylumxl]

The adhesion was very poor yesterday. I was on a 377/5 which was slip sliding away in the majority of places. Quite worrying at first lol.

 

[A-driver]

This very issue was mentioned in an RAIB inquiry some time ago......if I can remember which report it was , I ll post the link

Was the overshoot on the Hastings line a few years ago.

 

[W230]

So my question is how the train managed to run out of sand. Is it possible that the train left Sevenoaks with a full complement of sand and yet it still ran out just 11 stops later? Or did someone fail to check the sand level and top it up when it should have been done?

It would be topped up routinely when back at the depot but this can only be done when back at Bedford Caudwell. Usually this will be done every 10 -14 days but should be getting done more often at the moment.

I have no idea how much sand a 319 can store or how much is used.

Boring facts alert - it stores 35kg when full. When wheelslide is detected class 319's apply sand in ALL brake steps (I understand most other traction types will only do it in step 2/3). It uses 2kg/min during application but can also be manually applied when struggling with wheelslip. This is highly likely to have been well used considering yesterdays conditions, which will have depleted the reserves further.

The Sevenoaks route is renowned for being horribly slippery. Judging by the MML conditions yesterday I definitely wouldn't relish a run to Sevenoaks and back!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This very issue was mentioned in an RAIB inquiry some time ago......if I can remember which report it was , I ll post the link

I believe it was this one in Darlington. Involving a Pacer that just wouldn't stop...

 

[Moonshot]

Was the overshoot on the Hastings line a few years ago.

Possibly....I ll have a look later

 

[DJL]

Thanks for the replies.

So it sounds like it is quite plausible that the train could have run out without there having been any procedural errors.

I don't recall there being any major issues with adhesion yesterday.
Yes I could feel the train was struggling but nothing like this morning when a half empty train was barely managing a walking pace. And this is (presumably) before the sand ran out.


I dread to think what the knock on effect to other trains behind us was.
I know the Catford loop has both "fast" and slow trains running on it.
I tried to use realtimetrains to figure out how many "fast" trains were stuck behind us but either there were none or I don't know how to use that site properly!


(The "fast" trains bound for Blackfriars are only ~ 6 minutes quicker than the slow trains - presumably because of the proximity to other slow trains. Times for SMY-BFR only)

 

[GatwickDepress]

Was the overshoot on the Hastings line a few years ago.

When 375711 on 1H08 0645 London Charing Cross - Hastings overshot Stonegate by 2.45 miles on 8th November 2010? Yup!

The RAIB report says:

It is likely that the train failed to stop at Stonegate station because there was almost certainly no sand in the sand hoppers at the leading end. If sand had been present, the train braking system would have deposited sand onto the rail head, improving the available adhesion and allowing the train to stop in a much shorter distance.

 

[A-driver]

I don't recall there being any major issues with adhesion yesterday.

Sorry I really don't mean this as a dig at you but that is certainly the funniest thing I have read on these forums ever! Yesterday was by far the worst day for low adhesion for the past many years now...I can only speak for the welwyn and Hertford lines but exceptionally poor rail conditions dosnt come close to describing yesterday's conditions. It felt like a bad dream, just no control of the train whatsoever!

As I say nothing against you, just after having a day from hell with the adhesion yesterday your comment made me smile quite a bit!

 

[W230]

I don't recall there being any major issues with adhesion yesterday.
Yes I could feel the train was struggling but nothing like this morning when a half empty train was barely managing a walking pace. And this is (presumably) before the sand ran out.

Sorry I really don't mean this as a dig at you but that is certainly the funniest thing I have read on these forums ever! Yesterday was by far the worst day for low adhesion for the past many years now...I can only speak for the welwyn and Hertford lines but exceptionally poor rail conditions dosnt come close to describing yesterday's conditions. It felt like a bad dream, just no control of the train whatsoever!

Exactly the Same on the Brighton Mainline and MML. I have had a short driving career so far but I really hope LRA doesn't ever get much worse than it was yesterday!

 

[DJL]

When 375711 on 1H08 0645 London Charing Cross - Hastings overshot Stonegate by 2.45 miles on 8th November 2010? Yup!

2.4 miles?!? Yikes!

Glad I wasn't on that train, and as I said before - glad that my train was cancelled rather than suffer an accident.

Another question - in these poor conditions do signal overlap distance increase?
I guess it is pretty hard to move the under train equipment but it should presumably be quite easy in a modern signal box to ensure there is always TWO red signals between any train and another conflicting movement?

It strikes me that this simple change, while no doubt causing delays, will reduce the likelyhood of an accident where slippery rails are a concern.
And the delays are already occuring anyway due to poor acceleration, reduced top speeds and early braking

I can only speak for the welwyn and Hertford lines

And I only for the Catford loop and parts of the Chatham mainline (i.e. St Mary Cray to Blackfriars via Catford).

On these parts today certainly felt much worse to my untrained self.

The second train I picked up* this morning was also struggling much more than yesterday.
(Actually the journey home yesterday was pretty quick and uneventful - which was a shock to me given the wind howling past the office window all day)


* ok, not literally

 

[A-driver]

2.4 miles?!? Yikes!

Glad I wasn't on that train, and as I said before - glad that my train was cancelled rather than suffer an accident.

Another question - in these poor conditions do signal overlap distance increase?
I guess it is pretty hard to move the under train equipment but it should presumably be quite easy in a modern signal box to ensure there is always TWO red signals between any train and another conflicting movement?

It strikes me that this simple change, while no doubt causing delays, will reduce the likelyhood of an accident where slippery rails are a concern.
And the delays are already occuring anyway due to poor acceleration, reduced top speeds and early braking



And I only for the Catford loop and parts of the Chatham mainline (i.e. St Mary Cray to Blackfriars via Catford).

On these parts today certainly felt much worse to my untrained self.

The second train I picked up* this morning was also struggling much more than yesterday.
(Actually the journey home yesterday was pretty quick and uneventful - which was a shock to me given the wind howling past the office window all day)


* ok, not literally

They don't increase overlaps but double block and even triple block so basically keep an additional signals section empty between trains as you describe. That is why delays were so bad last night, they could only have 3 trains on the entire Hertford line at any one time.

 

[tsr]

Exactly the Same on the Brighton Mainline and MML. I have had a short driving career so far but I really hope LRA doesn't ever get much worse than it was yesterday!

I observed a number of trains come perilously close to either slipping to a stand, or approaching signals at what I suspect were excess speeds, on the North Downs Line. I believe a train was also severely damaged by wheelslip between Gomshall and Chilworth earlier today. Drivers did very well in the circumstances, and the crew displacement must have been quite stressful to work round.

377s were doing rather better than 165s/166s (where applicable on that line). It was fairly obvious that there were insufficient RHTT workings as these do help a great deal when they are run.

 

[DJL]

Actually I've just remembered I did notice yesterday a Brighton train on Platform 3 at Blackfriars in the morning peak.
I'm pretty sure that this is not normal and I can only assume it was caused by turning a train around early due to late running.

Our run in to Blackfriars was slow and the driver told us it was because of delays on the Brighton Line.

It hadn't occurred to me that those delays could have been adhesion related as our run up until Denmark hill was fine.

Either that or I have a worse memory than I thought.

Triple block doesn't sound like much fun, but still far preferable to having 2 trains having an unexpectedly intimate moment.

It probably also explains why the train that the driver this morning told us was "waiting at the signal behind" took so long to appear. It was probably actually stopped at a red 2 or maybe even 3 signals back. Especially if our driver had already reported problems, which I assume he did at one or more of the lengthy stops in previous stations (OT; one of these stops was long enough for a man to get off, stand on the platform for a bit, get back on, fiddle with his bike, then get back off the train again. No idea what that was about!).

 

[Silv1983]

I think I used most the sand in my pacer yesterday which I only took from Manchester Victoria to Rochdale and back
Luckily it was modified to allow step 1 sanding.

 

[Mintona]

Yesterday was certainly pretty bad in Kent. Obviously I'm not going to post any sensitive information, but you can take my word for it that yesterday was a lot worse for adhesion related problems than today has been (so far!)

 

[Moonshot]

Educating the public about adhesion problems is no mean feat.....they seem to understand black ice on roads, but trying to explain to the wider audience which already has years of anti rail attitude fostered by negative media coverage is a different kettle of fish.

Some time ago Network Rail wanted to cut down trees on a line up in Scotland as part of a mitigation exercise - the planning permission got knocked back due to the intervention of the Woodland Trust!!

 

[DJL]

Out of interest - does anyone know the reason why this stretch of track seems to suffer worse than others?
There doesn't appear to be more trees than elsewhere.

Maybe a different type of tree?
Or the alignment vs the prevailing wind direction?
Or terrain causing very specific weather patterns?

I'm guessing of course...

 

[A-driver]

Out of interest - does anyone know the reason why this stretch of track seems to suffer worse than others?
There doesn't appear to be more trees than elsewhere.

Maybe a different type of tree?
Or the alignment vs the prevailing wind direction?
Or terrain causing very specific weather patterns?

I'm guessing of course...

Can be all sorts if things, Watson at stone can be worse than anywhere else simply because it only sees 1 train per hour so less trains to condition the track and also the approach is in a cutting so spends more time in the shade without direct sunlight to dry the rails. I don't know the line you are referring to but it's down to numerous features.

 

[jopsuk]

With the train taken out of service due to the driver realising he was out of sand- what is the procedure then to get it to a depot where it can be refilled? As clearly even running ECS is going to be pretty dicy in those conditions?

 

[Chrisgr31]

Sorry I really don't mean this as a dig at you but that is certainly the funniest thing I have read on these forums ever! Yesterday was by far the worst day for low adhesion for the past many years now...I can only speak for the welwyn and Hertford lines but exceptionally poor rail conditions dosnt come close to describing yesterday's conditions. It felt like a bad dream, just no control of the train whatsoever!

As I say nothing against you, just after having a day from hell with the adhesion yesterday your comment made me smile quite a bit!

As a matter of interest what caused the adhesion issues yesterday? After all the leafall timetable on Southern finishes this weekend so presumably they are anticipating an end to the issues?

Is it purely leaves, ir is it ice or something else?

 

[jopsuk]

the wind yesterday, even in the south, was stripping trees of remaining leaves. Back at the storm in october, the trees hadn't really begun to shed properly, and between the two it has mainly been relatively calm. So huge dump of leaves in one go.

 

[Latecomer]

Sorry I really don't mean this as a dig at you but that is certainly the funniest thing I have read on these forums ever! Yesterday was by far the worst day for low adhesion for the past many years now...I can only speak for the welwyn and Hertford lines but exceptionally poor rail conditions dosnt come close to describing yesterday's conditions. It felt like a bad dream, just no control of the train whatsoever!

I can echo that. I've only been driving a couple of years but in spite of it being listed as a yellow day there was far more slip and slide over the entire route in the early morning than I've been used to previously (not just in the usual places). The sand demand light was coming on at virtually every station departure and in several other places under acceleration.

 

[A-driver]

As a matter of interest what caused the adhesion issues yesterday? After all the leafall timetable on Southern finishes this weekend so presumably they are anticipating an end to the issues?

Is it purely leaves, ir is it ice or something else?

Partly what you said. Leaf fall officially finishes December 1st. The RHTTs stop running as often then aswell. Of course in reality the leaves don't stop falling at 23:59:59 on November the 30th, but those in offices who make the decisions believe that they do...

It was leaves and moisture, not ice- ice tends not to be such a problem.

 

[DJL]

With the train taken out of service due to the driver realising he was out of sand- what is the procedure then to get it to a depot where it can be refilled? As clearly even running ECS is going to be pretty dicy in those conditions?

Well in my case the driver of the 2nd train onto which I changed claimed (while we were stationary for an extended period) that we were waiting for the train in front (with no sand) to reverse into the siding at Bellingham.

It was a long wait, during which one train went past us in the other direction.
I wasn't paying attention but it didn't sound like a 319, certainly not one with adhesion problems.

When we got going we passed the siding and there was no train.

So I can only assume the plan changed for whatever reason and the train instead continued along the line and went somewhere else.


Now interestingly realtimetrains showed a train that started from Bellingham, made a few stops on route to West Hampstead Thameslink then went into a depot.

I'm thinking the train I was chucked off was then put back into service with an odd stopping pattern.

Or maybe the 2 units were split and one half continued the service while the other just went and hid somewhere?


Presumably with no passengers low adhesion is slightly less of an issue?
i.e. Less momentum to overcome

 

[edwin_m]

If the train was reversed it would start using sand from the box at the other end. Unless this one was also empty the train could run normally but in poor adhesion conditions they would not want it to reverse again. If it terminated at West Hampstead then it might have been dumped in the sidings at Cricklewood - I don't know if there are sanding facilities there but perhaps a man with a van could have made a visit.

 

[D1009]

Of course in reality the leaves don't stop falling at 23:59:59 on November the 30th, but those in offices who make the decisions believe that they do...

OK, what decision would you make if it was down to you, given the timetable for the RHTT has to be prepared months in advance?

 

[30907]

Out of interest - does anyone know the reason why this stretch of track seems to suffer worse than others?
There doesn't appear to be more trees than elsewhere.

Maybe a different type of tree?
Or the alignment vs the prevailing wind direction?
Or terrain causing very specific weather patterns?

I'm guessing of course...

My daily travel down there ended in the EPB era, but by SR suburban standards the Catford Loop still runs through relatively un-built-up and well-wooded areas, and does so at ground level or in cutting (Beck Hill to Shortlands Jn through Beckenham Place Park for example) and there's an awkward climb at Ravensbourne to boot.
Further out, there's woodland - Pett's Wood - around St Mary Cray Jn and the Darenth Valley from Eynsford to Otford, which are similar.

 

[DJL]

As compared to the SEML in the same region where the trees are the same quantity and distance or closer and yet the problems seem, at least to me, to be less severe there.
Maybe it has more to do with unit type?

I saw a couple of 465/466 and 375/377 going the other way that didn't appear to be having any difficulty at all...

Give me a 465 over a 319 anyday. (and a 375 over both)


Actually - I don't know much about the line country-side of SMY or Chelsfield.
I've only been that way once in recent years and that was due to me not reading the boards properly.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
So now that I can use the PC I've found the following information

The original train was 2E65
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W44352/2013/12/06/advanced

It terminated at bellingham 23 mins late at 0840.
5 minutes later 5E65 was scheduled to start from Bellingham for Criklewood Depot
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O44764/2013/12/06/advanced

It actually left 9 minutes after that
Given the similarity of the numbers I assume that this is the now empty train heading to the depot.

Also it looks like some of the fast trains that ought to have been behind us were re-routed via the CML.

Am I close or should I give up?