Running Swindon–Cheltenham–Gloucester services

[A S Leib]

What would the practicalities of running services from Swindon to Cheltenham then Gloucester instead of reversing at Gloucester be? I know that means blocking what seems to be – as far as I can tell – one of two lines at Cheltenham for the reversal, which probably makes it more complicated than it's worth. How much time would it save between Swindon / Paddington and Cheltenham, and how much time would it add on for Gloucester? Could two trains per hour be run west of Swindon, with one going to Gloucester first and one via Cheltenham (similarly to how Snow Hill line services used to – I don't know if they currently do – serve Worcester Foregate Street, Shrub Hill, or both)?

 

[JonathanH]

There isn't a facility to turnback from the south at Cheltenham without running into Alstone sidings, or reversing north of the station on the running lines, so Swindon - Cheltenham - Gloucester can't happen without passengers having to leave the train.

Could two trains per hour be run west of Swindon, with one going to Gloucester first and one via Cheltenham (similarly to how Snow Hill line services used to – I don't know if they currently do – serve Worcester Foregate Street, Shrub Hill, or both)?

Probably not demand.

A lot of the awkward moves in the Worcester area where services call at both Shrub Hill and Foregate Street eminate from the single lines through Foregate Street. A train that terminates at Foregate Street from Shrub Hill has to go back that way (or go forward empty to Henwick, or in service to Malvern).

 

[deltic08]

What would the practicalities of running services from Swindon to Cheltenham then Gloucester instead of reversing at Gloucester be? I know that means blocking what seems to be – as far as I can tell – one of two lines at Cheltenham for the reversal, which probably makes it more complicated than it's worth. How much time would it save between Swindon / Paddington and Cheltenham, and how much time would it add on for Gloucester? Could two trains per hour be run west of Swindon, with one going to Gloucester first and one via Cheltenham (similarly to how Snow Hill line services used to – I don't know if they currently do – serve Worcester Foregate Street, Shrub Hill, or both)?

Not practical as it would involve an extra 15-20 miles per round trip. I can't see that Swindon-Cheltenham-Gloucester is more beneficial than Swindon-Gloucester-Cheltenham. As you say reversal at Cheltenham will block one line for too long. Is there a facing crossover to the south of Cheltenham to allow down reversing trains run into the UP platform?
It depends if more passengers alight at Gloucester or Cheltenham.

 

[JonathanH]

Is there a facing crossover to the south of Cheltenham to allow down reversing trains run into the UP platform?

No. There isn't a trailing crossover to the south either.

 

[Mountain Man]

It would simpler for them to stop messing around for decades and just build a new relocated Gloucester station

 

[mds86]

What would the practicalities of running services from Swindon to Cheltenham then Gloucester instead of reversing at Gloucester be? I know that means blocking what seems to be – as far as I can tell – one of two lines at Cheltenham for the reversal, which probably makes it more complicated than it's worth. How much time would it save between Swindon / Paddington and Cheltenham, and how much time would it add on for Gloucester? Could two trains per hour be run west of Swindon, with one going to Gloucester first and one via Cheltenham (similarly to how Snow Hill line services used to – I don't know if they currently do – serve Worcester Foregate Street, Shrub Hill, or both)?

I don't know what the point of this would be. The time penalty would be around 25 minutes if it was possible and for the folks travelling to Gloucester, passing through the city on the avoiding line will be rather annoying to put it mildly. The railways would then lose their time saving advantage over road transport. There are also passengers who use the London train from Gloucester to connect into the Cross Country services at Cheltenham.

Interestingly there are more people travelling to/from Gloucester from the stations served by the Swindon/London trains than Cheltenham.

Labs - Flow Statistics - Gloucester

 

[A S Leib]

I don't know what the point of this would be.

To shorten journey times for Cheltenham, although I don't know how much time it would save compared to reversing at Gloucester.

For station statistics, it's ~167,000 to / from Gloucester against ~164,000 to / from Cheltenham for Paddington, Reading, Didcot Parkway, although with the lack of anywhere to easily reverse at Cheltenham and absence of an eastern station in Gloucester whilst carrying passengers the current situation's probably best.

 

[The Planner]

To shorten journey times for Cheltenham, although I don't know how much time it would save compared to reversing at Gloucester.

About 10 minutes.

 

[deltic08]

It would simpler for them to stop messing around for decades and just build a new relocated Gloucester station

I disagree as I was a resident until 1970. Gloucester is a centre of employment with many commuters from Lydney, Cheltenham, Stonehouse, Stroud and Cam and Dursley stations so needs to be in the city centre as it is now.
For a few years before closure, running Cheltenham-London trains from Eastgate after Standish Junction alterations was the best way of routing thrse trains had ever been and then destroyed by the whims of a few.
Where would you suggest siting a station on the Bristol-Cheltenham line? Wherever it is sited, it will be on the edge of Gloucester.
Gloucester City Council are the culprits here for making a catastrophic decision in 1970 something in closing Eastgate station to eliminate just three level crossings in Gloucester. Gloucester people have suffered ever since with Bristol-Birmingham trains bypassing the city as calling and reversing nowadays is time consuming.
BR were quids in by selling a city centre site for a retail park.
If trains from South Wales are extended to the new station, It would have to be north or south of the actual bypass bit.

 

[leytongabriel]

National Express coach services do it the other way round - Cheltenham first then onto Gloucester mostly. Isn't that enough?

 

[A S Leib]

National Express coach services do it the other way round - Cheltenham first then onto Gloucester mostly. Isn't that enough?

It's forty to sixty minutes slower than direct trains or changing at Bristol Parkway (for Victoria vs. Paddington).

 

[popeter45]

as somebody who use to live in cheltenham i did wonder if there would be a buisness case for a Gloucester North and/or Gloucester South station on the mainline?
Gloucester hugs the line pretty closely so a few comutter stations could works well especally if tied into a wider project of electrification from bristol parkway to Bromsgrove?

 

[30907]

National Express coach services do it the other way round - Cheltenham first then onto Gloucester mostly. Isn't that enough?

Cheltenham is just as easy to reach off the A417 Cirencester road and possibly the bigger market.

as somebody who use to live in cheltenham i did wonder if there would be a buisness case for a Gloucester North and/or Gloucester South station on the mainline?
Gloucester hugs the line pretty closely so a few comutter stations could works well especally if tied into a wider project of electrification from bristol parkway to Bromsgrove?

Probably Gloucester South down towards Tuffley - but in addition to Central! Think we've had a thread on this before?

 

[MarkyT]

Cheltenham is just as easy to reach off the A417 Cirencester road and possibly the bigger market.

Probably Gloucester South down towards Tuffley - but in addition to Central! Think we've had a thread on this before?

Here's the thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ncy-new-stations-and-calling-patterns.166280/
I suggested a set of platforms on the main line with a new entrance, car park etc. near Morrisons, linked to the existing station for connections and more, importantly, the city centre and bus terminal by an automated people mover on railway land. Might plausibly be an autonomous rubber-tyred pod shuttle along Metz Way, if traffic could be managed sufficiently to ensure reliable trip time.

 

[Mountain Man]

I disagree as I was a resident until 1970. Gloucester is a centre of employment with many commuters from Lydney, Cheltenham, Stonehouse, Stroud and Cam and Dursley stations so needs to be in the city centre as it is now.
For a few years before closure, running Cheltenham-London trains from Eastgate after Standish Junction alterations was the best way of routing thrse trains had ever been and then destroyed by the whims of a few.
Where would you suggest siting a station on the Bristol-Cheltenham line? Wherever it is sited, it will be on the edge of Gloucester.
Gloucester City Council are the culprits here for making a catastrophic decision in 1970 something in closing Eastgate station to eliminate just three level crossings in Gloucester. Gloucester people have suffered ever since with Bristol-Birmingham trains bypassing the city as calling and reversing nowadays is time consuming.
BR were quids in by selling a city centre site for a retail park.
If trains from South Wales are extended to the new station, It would have to be north or south of the actual bypass

In an ideal world you'd reroute the entire route from South of the city down near Javelin Park and in effect make it an east west through station. Basically make a connection somewhere east of Quays and keep the station where it is

In absence of that, build a new station just North of where the junction is at Barnwood. Enabling Cardiff services to still stop there as well as trains to the South West, have Cheltenham services use instead of going into the station in the city centre. Run it as a 2nd Gloucester station.

 

[Basil Jet]

In an ideal world you'd reroute the entire route from South of the city down near Javelin Park and in effect make it an east west through station. Basically make a connection somewhere east of Quays and keep the station where it is

... although a new line from north of Ashchurch with a new station on the west edge of Tewkesbury joining to the west end of Gloucester would actually shorten the Birmingham to Bristol route.

 

[PTR 444]

Cheltenham is just as easy to reach off the A417 Cirencester road and possibly the bigger market.

Additionally, Stagecoach route 51 goes to Cheltenham rather than Gloucester. The local bus takes the A435 rather than the A417 north of Cirencester as there are more villages to serve on that route. By that point you’ll definitely reach Cheltenham first, which has frequent buses onwards to Gloucester. I doubt there is enough demand for a direct local bus between Cirencester and Gloucester via the A417, otherwise such a route would probably exist.

 

[Weekender]

Additionally, Stagecoach route 51 goes to Cheltenham rather than Gloucester. The local bus takes the A435 rather than the A417 north of Cirencester as there are more villages to serve on that route. By that point you’ll definitely reach Cheltenham first, which has frequent buses onwards to Gloucester. I doubt there is enough demand for a direct local bus between Cirencester and Gloucester via the A417, otherwise such a route would probably exist.

There is, it’s Stagecoach 882 takes 45 minutes and runs about every 2 hours.

 

[bleeder4]

Gloucester reminds me a bit of Worcester, in that the Bristol-Birmingham mainline bypasses the city. Worcester has resolved that by building Worcestershire Parkway, and undoubtedly Gloucester could benefit from a Parkway station as well. There's plenty of space where Gloucester Yard is, and the car park at Morrisons is right next to the yard so could be re-purposed into station parking as well.

 

[lrailadventure]

Gloucester reminds me a bit of Worcester, in that the Bristol-Birmingham mainline bypasses the city. Worcester has resolved that by building Worcestershire Parkway, and undoubtedly Gloucester could benefit from a Parkway station as well. There's plenty of space where Gloucester Yard is, and the car park at Morrisons is right next to the yard so could be re-purposed into station parking as well.

The car park at Morrisons is usually very busy with people shopping there. There wouldn't be many spaces available, particularly at and just outside peak times, for rail commuters too.

If you want a true Parkway station in Gloucester, you need to look at the Tuffley/Kingsway/Quedgeley area. Close to J12 for the motorway, would act as an interchange for the Swindon and Bristol lines and would serve quite a large population that doesn't have many good public transport options.

 

[mds86]

The local politicians are not in favour of building a new station by Morrisons as they think that the current station would then probably close - the train operators would be unlikely to want to stop at the two stations, half a mile apart. The operators would be even less inclined to reverse their trains going north-south in the old station when they could just call at the new one by Morrisons.

These politicians view the current station as being in the best position for links to the city centre and the transport hub (bus station). The main hospital is accessible via a subway under the railway station, and the local university have taken over the old Debenhams building off Kings Square to turn into a city campus which is meant to open in September. Therefore having a station by Morrisons means that anyone wanting the city centre area then needs to get an extra bus / taxi / walk to finish or start their journey which makes using public transport less appealing.

A new parkway style station in the Kingsway / Waterwells area would be a better idea for commuters. It could also replace the interchange role of Bristol Parkway when the Severn Tunnel is closed and GWR trains to south Wales are routed via Gloucester, with Cross Country trains towards the north and south.

 

[Pete_uk]

I suggested in another thread on the issue that a line turning left just by the M5 and heading over the Severn to connect to the south Wales line would be an expensive solution. Make the whole lot from Standish up to the south Wales like 110mph and you wouldn't loose to much time!

 

[deltic08]

I suggested in another thread on the issue that a line turning left just by the M5 and heading over the Severn to connect to the south Wales line would be an expensive solution. Make the whole lot from Standish up to the south Wales like 110mph and you wouldn't loose to much time!

An increase of 10mph over such a short distance would save only a minute. More time would be saved by making Standish Junction into a grade separated junction to remove conflicting movements. This is perfectly possible as the line from Swindon is at a higher level than the Gloucester-Bristol line when they meet. The Down Swindon line could be built to cross the Bristol line, which is in a cutting at this point, and ramp down to a single turnout at a speed depending on the new curve. I would think about 70mph. Entry to the Up Swindon line would be similar and much better than the current 40mph.
As a former resident of Lydney, I mourn the loss of the Severn rail bridge to Sharpness especially on summer Saturdays with six coach through trains from Parkend to Bristol using the chord bypassing Berkeley Road station. Only possible in the summer because of lack of station lighting at Parkend and Whitecroft. The train was quite full on leaving Lydney Town and packed after picking up at Sharpness and Berkeley, so was very popular.
I have often wondered why a line from about Standish across to the original South Wales line at Over could not be built and that would enable NE-SW trains to call at Gloucester without reversal and loss of so much time.

 

[The Planner]

An increase of 10mph over such a short distance would save only a minute. More time would be saved by making Standish Junction into a grade separated junction to remove conflicting movements. This is perfectly possible as the line from Swindon is at a higher level than the Gloucester-Bristol line when they meet. The Down Swindon line could be built to cross the Bristol line, which is in a cutting at this point, and ramp down to a single turnout at a speed depending on the new curve. I would think about 70mph. Entry to the Up Swindon line would be similar and much better than the current 40mph.

Only saves time at Standish if there is a conflict. Considering the Golden Valley is only 1tph, we are a long way before any problems arise.

 

[TheWalrus]

Currently sat on one now! Generally I would say most passengers join or alight at Gloucester, more than Cheltenham.

I would suggest the only way to solve this is a new station on the main lines at Gloucester, or 2tph via Stroud; one does Gloucester the other does Cheltenham.

Not practical as it would involve an extra 15-20 miles per round trip. I can't see that Swindon-Cheltenham-Gloucester is more beneficial than Swindon-Gloucester-Cheltenham. As you say reversal at Cheltenham will block one line for too long. Is there a facing crossover to the south of Cheltenham to allow down reversing trains run into the UP platform?
It depends if more passengers alight at Gloucester or Cheltenham.

Additionally, Stagecoach route 51 goes to Cheltenham rather than Gloucester. The local bus takes the A435 rather than the A417 north of Cirencester as there are more villages to serve on that route. By that point you’ll definitely reach Cheltenham first, which has frequent buses onwards to Gloucester. I doubt there is enough demand for a direct local bus between Cirencester and Gloucester via the A417, otherwise such a route would probably exist.

There is a direct bus between Cirencester and Gloucester, route 882, although I know some of these journeys go via villages. Not sure if there are direct via A417 journeys.

 

[Sly Old Fox]

Standish Jn probably doesn’t need grade separation at this point, but a high speed turnout would be both desirable and possible (if not likely). There is loads of spare railway land nearby that could be used to make it a 90mph junction for the diverging route to Stonehouse, rather than 40mph and approach controlled (and therefore slow).

 

[Philip]

There isn't a facility to turnback from the south at Cheltenham without running into Alstone sidings, or reversing north of the station on the running lines, so Swindon - Cheltenham - Gloucester can't happen without passengers having to leave the train.

Why would passengers have to leave the train if it reversed in sidings? Surely just a case of the driver/guard swapping cabs?

 

[deltic08]

Standish Jn probably doesn’t need grade separation at this point, but a high speed turnout would be both desirable and possible (if not likely). There is loads of spare railway land nearby that could be used to make it a 90mph junction for the diverging route to Stonehouse, rather than 40mph and approach controlled (and therefore slow).

Would the curvature between Standish and Stonehouse allow 90mph?

 

[Sly Old Fox]

Would the curvature between Standish and Stonehouse allow 90mph?

Yes, as the linepseed there is already 90mph. It literally drops from 100mph to 40mph for the junction, before rising immediately to 90mph.

 

[deltic08]

Yes, as the linepseed there is already 90mph. It literally drops from 100mph to 40mph for the junction, before rising immediately to 90mph.

There must be a reason for only 40mph. It has been 40 since the route was reduced from 4 tracks to 2 in the mid 1970s. Has the pointwork been unchanged since then? If so, it must be getting pretty worn by now.