Running times.

[Geordie driver]

It's been a while since I worked bus driving. Running times were a constant source of friction between drivers and the company, office staff seemed to think drivers were immune to traffic congestion and didn't need to stop for passengers. Any time at a turning point would be cut making it even harder to get back on time.

Reading these forums it appears companies are still doing this, the last time I was on a stagecoach bus, a Newcastle circle on a Sunday, the driver was 25 minutes down and he had the hammer down trying to make up time.

Why does the traffic commissioner allow this, is it beyond their remit?

When I was driving I made a decent attempt at running on time and that was it, no way I would speed round. If I was running late it was the companies problem, not mine.

They did once try to discipline me for running late, I offered to go out with a driver trainer driving in the approved manner and if we ran on time I would accept I was at fault. The matter was dropped.

 

[carlberry]

It's been a while since I worked bus driving. Running times were a constant source of friction between drivers and the company, office staff seemed to think drivers were immune to traffic congestion and didn't need to stop for passengers. Any time at a turning point would be cut making it even harder to get back on time.

Reading these forums it appears companies are still doing this, the last time I was on a stagecoach bus, a Newcastle circle on a Sunday, the driver was 25 minutes down and he had the hammer down trying to make up time.

Why does the traffic commissioner allow this, is it beyond their remit?

When I was driving I made a decent attempt at running on time and that was it, no way I would speed round. If I was running late it was the companies problem, not mine.

They did once try to discipline me for running late, I offered to go out with a driver trainer driving in the approved manner and if we ran on time I would accept I was at fault. The matter was dropped.

The traffic commissioner can get involved if services are regularly running late, beyond the 5 minute allowance. Many years ago most big companies had union reps that agreed the schedules, which also meant that the unions dealt with most complaints from drivers abut running times. I don't know what the situation is now, however lots of companies tinker with running times as a result of the data from GPS enabled ticket machines as it's not in their interest for the running times to be completely unrealistic.
What was the reason that your example was 25 minutes late? If it happens regularly I'd expect the timetable to be changed however it isn't realistic to allow the running time to accommodate more than a few minutes of 'loose' time in a journey as passengers start complaining about how slow the driver is. As you say the turn around time should be realistic however, and preferably somewhere with facilities!

 

[Tetchytyke]

What was the reason that your example was 25 minutes late?

Stagecoach Newcastle have hopelessly optimistic running times, with extremely tight turnarounds. Buses going near the MetroCentre, especially in the run up to Christmas, can end up 30+ late very easily. The 6/7 circulars round the north of Newcastle to the MetroCentre were hopeless at the best of times, but at Christmas you could forget it.

An example was my old route, the 22. Punctuality in the peak was always poor because they didn't amend the timetable at peak times, so an achievable running time during the day was unrealistic in the peak. They then added a loop round a business park to the route, adding about 5 minutes to the journey, and to fund this they cut the turnaround times to about 2-3 minutes at each end. Needless to say the timetable became a complete work of fiction, 30-40 minute gaps in service (on a 10 minute headway) commonplace, buses that bunched in the morning peak were still bunched at 4pm. And most Stagecoach routes are cross-city, so delays just compound on delays.

It was clear Stagecoach just didn't give a toss, they first tried to fix it by running a 15-minute headway in the shoulder peaks (it essentially took a bus out, meaning all the buses could get one 10-minute extra layover, with predictable overcrowding-related delays on top of all the other delays) before, about 2 years later, finally adding a bus to the schedule. And they only did that because the business park owners were supporting the bus and were about to can the contract. And why would they care? "Traffic congestion" was enough of an answer for the spineless TC.

Sundays were even worse, a 20-minute service was achievable with either 2 minute or 15 minute turnarounds at each end, so guess what happened. 3bph all bunched up, then nothing for 45 minutes.

This, by the way, is why I have such a poor opinion of Stagecoach operationally.

 

[Geordie driver]

Stagecoach Newcastle have hopelessly optimistic running times, with extremely tight turnarounds. Buses going near the MetroCentre, especially in the run up to Christmas, can end up 30+ late very easily. The 6/7 circulars round the north of Newcastle to the MetroCentre were hopeless at the best of times, but at Christmas you could forget it.

An example was my old route, the 22. Punctuality in the peak was always poor because they didn't amend the timetable at peak times, so an achievable running time during the day was unrealistic in the peak. They then added a loop round a business park to the route, adding about 5 minutes to the journey, and to fund this they cut the turnaround times to about 2-3 minutes at each end. Needless to say the timetable became a complete work of fiction, 30-40 minute gaps in service (on a 10 minute headway) commonplace, buses that bunched in the morning peak were still bunched at 4pm. And most Stagecoach routes are cross-city, so delays just compound on delays.

It was clear Stagecoach just didn't give a toss, they first tried to fix it by running a 15-minute headway in the shoulder peaks (it essentially took a bus out, meaning all the buses could get one 10-minute extra layover, with predictable overcrowding-related delays on top of all the other delays) before, about 2 years later, finally adding a bus to the schedule. And they only did that because the business park owners were supporting the bus and were about to can the contract. And why would they care? "Traffic congestion" was enough of an answer for the spineless TC.

Sundays were even worse, a 20-minute service was achievable with either 2 minute or 15 minute turnarounds at each end, so guess what happened. 3bph all bunched up, then nothing for 45 minutes.

This, by the way, is why I have such a poor opinion of Stagecoach operationally.

It was indeed a number 6 I was waiting for, November so possibly due to traffic at the metro centre. The driver said it was normal to be running late as the times were so tight.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It was indeed a number 6 I was waiting for, November so possibly due to traffic at the metro centre. The driver said it was normal to be running late as the times were so tight.

In quiet times the times are tight but achievable, but on Saturdays and in the run up to Christmas the 6s get stuck in the traffic by Tesco at Kingston Park as well as at the MetroCentre. The timetable just becomes a work of fiction.

 

[LiviCrazy]

Opposite problem round my area. First give long running times regardless of time of day. Last bus from Edinburgh given the same running time as daytime (except peak). Means an awful lot of tedious stopping at bus stops or driving at 20mph along a 50 road.

Does mean in general they are pretty punctual.

 

[Qwerty133]

On one local route the running times got longer and longer every year or so for several years as the knackered buses used got slower and slower and required more and more time to complete the route. Unfortunately when those buses were replaced by new ones that could complete the route much quicker the running times were never revised back to something realistic meaning buses are often left waiting for several minutes at various places mid route in order to wait for time which can be extremely annoying (until the one remaining old bus is substituted which can no longer even manage to keep to the current exaggerated running times). Ideally bus companies would use optimistic but achievable running times with slightly longer turnaround times in order to catch up minor late running rather than slower running times and shorter turnarounds.

 

[Pat1105]

The Johnsons Excelbus 150 service that I sometimes use in the mornings has far too much running time. I was once sat at the Maypole for 8 minutes!

 

[43055]

I think there has to be a bit of a balance and from my experience on my local route the traffic can change day by day on the same peak time journey that I get home. The journey is given 15 mins to get to the first timing point which on most days this will be about spot on but there are occasions where we are later or a couple of mins early.

 

[scotrail158713]

Opposite problem round my area. First give long running times regardless of time of day. Last bus from Edinburgh given the same running time as daytime (except peak). Means an awful lot of tedious stopping at bus stops or driving at 20mph along a 50 road.

Does mean in general they are pretty punctual.

They do seem pretty generous actually - even in the peak (still usually trundling through Gorgie at 5pm during the week - same as a Sat am). I don’t mind too much though because, as you say, it does mean they’re pretty punctual. I could probably count on one hand the number of journeys I’ve had running late in the last year or two.
It does seem to go against the norm in terms of bus companies though.

 

[Eyersey468]

When the company I work for introduced a new route (now defunct) from Market Weighton to York they allowed so much time on the first journey we ended up leaving 10 minutes late from MW and dragging our heels, we were still early in York. They were allowing for traffic which was never there. To be fair they did sort it out when the route was extended to Brough.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I think there has to be a bit of a balance and from my experience on my local route the traffic can change day by day on the same peak time journey that I get home.

Definitely. My experience is Monday journeys are late because of ticket sales, Tuesdays always seem to have the worst traffic of the whole week, then it calms down. You can't have different timetables for different days of the week. And if it rains then everything is slower and busier.

But when you get routes like the 6/7 in Newcastle which routinely have 15-20 minute delays, something isn't right.

 

[Geordie driver]

Definitely. My experience is Monday journeys are late because of ticket sales, Tuesdays always seem to have the worst traffic of the whole week, then it calms down. You can't have different timetables for different days of the week. And if it rains then everything is slower and busier.

But when you get routes like the 6/7 in Newcastle which routinely have 15-20 minute delays, something isn't right.

Tuesdays! I reckon if you are going to throw a sickie or take a day off then chances are it's Monday, hence the terrible Tuesday traffic. You are right about different days needing different times, hence why a decent turning time at the end of the route is a good idea, but companies hate the idea of the driver getting a few minutes to themselves. Difficult to build into a circle too.

 

[Andyh82]

Definitely. My experience is Monday journeys are late because of ticket sales, Tuesdays always seem to have the worst traffic of the whole week, then it calms down. You can't have different timetables for different days of the week. And if it rains then everything is slower and busier.

You've also got Fridays that are quieter, and friday afternoons where the peak is earlier which messes timetables up as it often comes at the same time as school traffic

School holidays are also of course quieter

 

[upasalmon]

I have a rule of thumb which should apply in most urban conditions . Mon-Sat daytimes average speed 12 mph, evenings and Sundays 15 mph
Weather, congestion and road works can mess this up so there are going to be exceptions.

 

[philthetube]

In part drivers hammering it have themselves to blame, shouldn't be hanging around but shouldn't be speeding or braking heavily either.

 

[Pat1105]

In part drivers hammering it have themselves to blame, shouldn't be hanging around but shouldn't be speeding or braking heavily either.

Common practice against Diamond drivers on the 223/9 in Dudley. They hang around on the bus park and then turn up on stand 5 minutes or more late. Very annoying when you’re stood there in the freezing cold

 

[Geordie driver]

In part drivers hammering it have themselves to blame, shouldn't be hanging around but shouldn't be speeding or braking heavily either.

Spot on.

There is an art to keeping a bus on time on a route with too much time, for example before 06 30. As a punter I hate sitting at timing points so I tried to avoid it as a driver. Too little time and it's not the drivers problem.

 

[markymark2000]

There is an art to keeping a bus on time on a route with too much time, for example before 06 30. As a punter I hate sitting at timing points so I tried to avoid it as a driver. Too little time and it's not the drivers problem.

It's made harder by some drivers being very slow and others being very nippy. There are plenty of instances where I have been on a bus and the journey time fluctuates so much just because of each drivers driving techniques. If you have changeovers on route as well, that makes and breaks schedules (partly again down to some drivers lack of sense or urgency).

If times are very tight, I can understand it not being down to the driver but there are plenty of occasions where running time varies extortionately depending on the driver.

 

[Megafuss]

I think some of the critisism about running times is a little unfair.

Timetables and schedules have to please four groups of people at once with sometimes competing objectives

Customers as they are the bread and butter of the industry.

Drivers as they are out there keeping the wheels turning.

Management as they want to ensure things are as efficient as possible.

Traffic Commissioner who discipline any malfeasance.

Obviously all four want buses to run on time. However, customers want reliable journeys, so layover is added at some stops to aide reliablity. Drivers want to complete the journeys as quickly as possible and don't like midroute layovers in my experience. Management want the least number of buses/drivers used as reasonably possible so and the TC doesn't care about the problems faced so long as you run on time.

Usually at least one of those four groups is unhappy with something no matter what you do and it's a good company that keeps all of them on side.

So its clearly in nobodies interest to have timetables which are unrealistic as at some point one or all four of those groups of people will get very annoyed and things escalate. Which is where a good company structure comes in.

I undertake regular checks on running times both using tracking data and getting out and about on the buses. Speaking to the union is always a good shout as the last thing they want is drivers missing breaks!

Do we get everything right? No. Do you want to change things straight away? Yes, but it makes no sense as you end up with lots of service changes and then you start to upset customers and drivers. You can tell the good companies from the bad as the better ones don't make many changes....as they don't have to.

Maybe I am lucky I work for a company that does things right but that's how I see it.

 

[northernchris]

In West Yorkshire First's timetables are still largely based around summer timings, and it's clear already that these are becoming unachievable. On the other hand Transdev have mostly gone back to the timetables in use pre-Covid, despite traffic and passenger levels not being back to those levels. The result is Leeds - Kirkstall is timed for 11 minutes longer in the evening peak with Transdev despite taking an identical route to First. Interesting thing is First have a lot of bunching and cancellations, and Transdev are leaving timing points early, so it's the worst of both worlds and both deserve to be brought before the traffic commissioner for being irresponsible

 

[Titfield]

The Traffic Commissioner issues specific guidance relating to bus operation including punctuality and reliability. See Traffic Commissioners Guidance No 14 TC Guidance 14

 

[Andyh82]

In West Yorkshire First's timetables are still largely based around summer timings, and it's clear already that these are becoming unachievable. On the other hand Transdev have mostly gone back to the timetables in use pre-Covid, despite traffic and passenger levels not being back to those levels. The result is Leeds - Kirkstall is timed for 11 minutes longer in the evening peak with Transdev despite taking an identical route to First. Interesting thing is First have a lot of bunching and cancellations, and Transdev are leaving timing points early, so it's the worst of both worlds and both deserve to be brought before the traffic commissioner for being irresponsible

Like you say, in West Yorks, Transdev and Arriva are running pre Covid timings with loads of extra running time at peak hours. First are running timetables where it’s the same running time all day and with the buses saved by not having peak timings they are able to run loads of duplicates for school flows.

Which is better? Who knows, but at the start of September could you have predicted what peak time traffic would have been like next week, the week after, the week after that?

 

[Geordie driver]

I know someone who left a Newcastle company as he was sick of being harassed to run on time when the only way to do so is to hammer the bus. I don't understand how companies still get away with this.

There were some drivers who struggled to load a bus quickly, some were very right handed and had to lean over to operate the ticket and change machine, one guy couldn't use a change a machine and just used a bag, he took ages to load a bus. Some drivers were massively over friendly, I know companies bang on about being nice to the punters but most people would prefer a reasonable driver trying to get them there on time.

We were never permitted to transfer passengers, you could have 3 buses running together on a 15 minute service, common sense says put the passengers on the bus that's on time and the other 2 go light and pick up the route, we were not allowed to do this unless an inspector told us to. We had no radios and I saw Santa more often than I saw an inspector.

 

[northernchris]

Like you say, in West Yorks, Transdev and Arriva are running pre Covid timings with loads of extra running time at peak hours. First are running timetables where it’s the same running time all day and with the buses saved by not having peak timings they are able to run loads of duplicates for school flows.

Which is better? Who knows, but at the start of September could you have predicted what peak time traffic would have been like next week, the week after, the week after that?

Whilst it was impossible to predict what journey times would be like when the timetables were planned, it was unlikely congestion would have returned to levels seen this time last year. With the time required for amending timetables currently reduced it should be easier to devise a more realistic schedule

At least with First they have redeployed their resources to provide additional capacity, and departing early is something which is never excusable

 

[Unstoppable]

Opposite problem round my area. First give long running times regardless of time of day. Last bus from Edinburgh given the same running time as daytime (except peak). Means an awful lot of tedious stopping at bus stops or driving at 20mph along a 50 road.

Does mean in general they are pretty punctual.

It isn't rare to get stuck behind a First bus doing the company speed limit.... 18mph. If a car was caught doing this they would be pulled over. They drive as if they have L plates on and wonder why no one let them out. If someone has the decency to flash you out then you get the boot down. First seem to think time is non existent. Yes... I used to work there and no I didn't drive like a nun. Speed limit and await time at the relevant timing point

 

[Pat1105]

It isn't rare to get stuck behind a First bus doing the company speed limit.... 18mph. If a car was caught doing this they would be pulled over. They drive as if they have L plates on and wonder why no one let them out. If someone has the decency to flash you out then you get the boot down. First seem to think time is non existent. Yes... I used to work there and no I didn't drive like a nun. Speed limit and await time at the relevant timing point

That is something that really annoys me. We have one driver on our route that does 30-40 mph on a 60 mph road!

 

[markymark2000]

That is something that really annoys me. We have one driver on our route that does 30-40 mph on a 60 mph road!

And that right there is why running times don't work because the slow drivers always complain for extra time meanwhile faster drivers need less time. Operators can't win and who loses out? The travelling public because they have to sit and wait layover all the time or end up waiting for a late bus.

 

[Geordie driver]

Safety trunps everything, by this I mean safety of people, not as many companies see it, profits.

The only way to run on time on some routes is to hammer the bus, the harder you drive, the more risks you are taking.

Once had a guy catch me up on the same route and ask how I was 15 minutes down, I told him I wasn't, I was 30 minutes down, it was snowing hard. Of he went hammering the bus, fishtailing in the snow.

The company would put secret shopper style passengers on to catch you out, if you were on time but driving hard you were in the wrong, if you were late but driving properly, you were in the wrong.

Our company had a habit of shifts bang on the max driving hours, 5rh 30 min then a 30 min break ( which meant 30 mins off the bus, not 30 mins in the canteen) then straight back on for another long stretch. I have seen drivers running late being pressed to pick up after only a few minutes break. Any driver worth his salt will not push themselves to help the company in circumstances like this.

 

[Tetchytyke]

We have one driver on our route that does 30-40 mph on a 60 mph road!

The speed limit for buses on a single carriageway road is 50mph, not 60mph. Until relatively recently it was 40mph.