Sail Rail delay advice please

[monxton]

Currently in Dublin Port still waiting for the 08:05 Irish Ferries to sail to Holyhead, will probably go about 15:00. Traveling on a Sail Rail advance CIV ticket routed via London to my home station, and originally expected to be home by 19:00.

There's no chance of getting the 17:31 from Holyhead at this stage. The 18:23 might be attainable, in which case i would get to my home station about 3am involving a rail replacement bus. The 19:21 would leave me stuck in London until the morning services start.

So, what are my options, depending on what happens next? If I can make the 18:23, I suppose I am obliged to keep going for the 3:30 arrival at home, after the walk from the station. If not, what am I entitled to, and who is responsible? I bought the ticket from a TOC. Can I break my journey in Chester or Crewe or somewhere that isn't London if I know that I'm too late for the onward journey? Can I claim for accommodation? Delay repay? I'm assuming my onward journey is still valid, but if it doesn't happen until tomorrow, would my ticket be valid for a route via XC rather than VT?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Currently in Dublin Port still waiting for the 08:05 Irish Ferries to sail to Holyhead, will probably go about 15:00. Traveling on a Sail Rail advance CIV ticket routed via London to my home station, and originally expected to be home by 19:00.

There's no chance of getting the 17:31 from Holyhead at this stage. The 18:23 might be attainable, in which case i would get to my home station about 3am involving a rail replacement bus. The 19:21 would leave me stuck in London until the morning services start.

So, what are my options, depending on what happens next? If I can make the 18:23, I suppose I am obliged to keep going for the 3:30 arrival at home, after the walk from the station. If not, what am I entitled to, and who is responsible? I bought the ticket from a TOC. Can I break my journey in Chester or Crewe or somewhere that isn't London if I know that I'm too late for the onward journey? Can I claim for accommodation? Delay repay? I'm assuming my onward journey is still valid, but if it doesn't happen until tomorrow, would my ticket be valid for a route via XC rather than VT?

I've had a read around, but unfortunately it is not entirely clear what applies in the case of an international rail journey whose legs are connected by a ship connection. The ticket is issued under the CIV, which means that the ordinary NRCoT do not apply.

I am pretty sure you are entitled to overnight accommodation given that the alternative to this is continuing the journey until 03:30, which is plainly ridiculous. And I would be highly surprised if any train managers made a problem with you using your ticket on the second day, if you explained the lengthy previous delays. SailRail tickets are only restricted in terms of the ferry port used (Holyhead in your case), and the ferry company used (Irish Ferries in your case). So no TOC restrictions would come into it, and as you have been prevented from travelling on your booked service, you cannot be expected to catch that either.

If any delay compensation is payable, I would have thought it would be from Irish Ferries, and given the lengthy delay, it would appear to be 50% of the fare paid. However, there are some exemptions to when compensation has to be paid, so do you know what the reason for the lengthy delay is?

 

[monxton]

The cause of the delay is weather-related - it's a knock-on from the bad weather yesterday so the ships were in the wrong places.

I found this:
https://www.irishferries.com/globalassets/faqs/psacharterchapter_2014.pdf
which says they are not going to offer any help. They've already declined to feed us, despite what it says there - I read the "right to care and assistance" as being not weather-related.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

The cause of the delay is weather-related - it's a knock-on from the bad weather yesterday so the ships were in the wrong places.

I found this:
https://www.irishferries.com/globalassets/faqs/psacharterchapter_2014.pdf
which says they are not going to offer any help. They've already declined to feed us, despite what it says there - I read the "right to care and assistance" as being not weather-related.

Is there bad weather today though? If not, the fact that they are still suffering from knock-on delays is not relevant to your situation: note that the relevant Regulation states (in Recitals 14 to 17, p. 3) states that the delay must be caused by exceptional weather, or exceptional other events. If the cause of the delay is not directly that the weather is preventing safe sailing, they cannot claim that this knock-on delay continues to be the reason. Their poor organisation and lack of available ships may be the problem. On a simple terminal to terminal journey (as Dublin to Holyhead is), it would not be unreasonable to expect them to have the capacity to deal with issues, in the same way you could expect a TOC to have a few spare units at hand at normal times, to cater for train failures or delays.

I would pay for appropriate food and drink yourself - ensuring the cost is reasonable (e.g. not alcohol), and ensuring you keep all receipts. Claim this, as well as your delay compensation (or other amounts as may become due, e.g. overnight accommodation if delays continue), when you get home.

 

[monxton]

You're right, the weather today is fine, and that distinction is one that I may use in the future, depending on how things pan out. It's not going to make an impression on the big uniformed bloke who didn't want to give me a food voucher though.

I'm not feeling hopeful about getting anything back, especially if i don't complete the offered journey on the 18:23.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

You're right, the weather today is fine, and that distinction is one that I may use in the future, depending on how things pan out. It's not going to make an impression on the big uniformed bloke who didn't want to give me a food voucher though.

I'm not feeling hopeful about getting anything back, especially if i don't complete the offered journey on the 18:23.

Well, it would appear that comparisons with the less savoury parts of the rail industry might be apt then!

Even if you caught the 18:23, you could not possibly be less than 2 hours delayed! Assuming the sailing was originally scheduled to take 4 hours or less, that is the threshold for the relevant compensation of 50% of the fare, so it hardly matters whether or not you stay overnight. They need not even know, to be honest.

 

[monxton]

Not sure I follow. 50% of the journey "leg", by which I guess they mean the ferry element of my £42.40 Sail Rail ticket, isn't going to go very far.

 

[cactustwirly]

Is there bad weather today though? If not, the fact that they are still suffering from knock-on delays is not relevant to your situation: note that the relevant Regulation states (in Recitals 14 to 17, p. 3) states that the delay must be caused by exceptional weather, or exceptional other events. If the cause of the delay is not directly that the weather is preventing safe sailing, they cannot claim that this knock-on delay continues to be the reason. Their poor organisation and lack of available ships may be the problem. On a simple terminal to terminal journey (as Dublin to Holyhead is), it would not be unreasonable to expect them to have the capacity to deal with issues, in the same way you could expect a TOC to have a few spare units at hand at normal times, to cater for train failures or delays.

I would pay for appropriate food and drink yourself - ensuring the cost is reasonable (e.g. not alcohol), and ensuring you keep all receipts. Claim this, as well as your delay compensation (or other amounts as may become due, e.g. overnight accommodation if delays continue), when you get home.

I'm not 100% sure that EU regulation applies, because the Ferry is registered in Nassau (the Bahamas), the sailing effectively operates under the laws of the country where the ferry is registered.
Uk Consumer law probably wouldn't apply.
It's worth noting that it may be worth paying the extra £5 in future, as the Ferries used by Stena Line are registered in Cardiff & London, where UK law applies to the sailing.

 

[monxton]

a) I'm not sure there will be a future. Right now even Ryanair seems preferable.
b) I came out by Stena Line, and tbh this Irish Ferries ship is more comfortable, generally nicer. The man in Seat 61 prefers it, and I can see why. Also the WiFi is pretty good
c) These are forums and of course you can talk about what you like. For me, I didn't come here to discuss what i might have done differently in the past. I'm trying to get prepared for things that are going to happen in the remainder of my day. I don't feel a lot closer to that, and I'm quite tired already.
d) ... and before anyone asks, the Stena ship was similarly delayed. We're going into Holyhead neck and neck.

 

[30907]

Is there bad weather today though? If not, the fact that they are still suffering from knock-on delays is not relevant to your situation: ....
Their poor organisation and lack of available ships may be the problem. On a simple terminal to terminal journey (as Dublin to Holyhead is), it would not be unreasonable to expect them to have the capacity to deal with issues, in the same way you could expect a TOC to have a few spare units at hand at normal times, to cater for train failures or delays.

Note : the following may not assist the OP (with whose plight I sympathise).

The delayed arrival of the ship from Holyhead caused by bad weather preventing safe sailing is surely the sole cause of the delayed departure? The notion of a ferry company keeping a ship on standby in case of bad weather is fanciful in the extreme.

 

[sheff1]

I'm not 100% sure that EU regulation applies, because the Ferry is registered in Nassau (the Bahamas), the sailing effectively operates under the laws of the country where the ferry is registered.

EU Regulation 1177/2010 applies if the port of embarkation is situated in the territory of an EU Member State.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Note : the following may not assist the OP (with whose plight I sympathise).

The delayed arrival of the ship from Holyhead caused by bad weather preventing safe sailing is surely the sole cause of the delayed departure? The notion of a ferry company keeping a ship on standby in case of bad weather is fanciful in the extreme.

Train companies do it all the time. And it is fanciful in the extreme for ferry companies to claim that bad weather on a previous day is the reason for a delay today. No, not having any contingency measures in place is the reason. And that is plainly within the ferry company's ambit: poor weather is not. They have made a commercial decision not to have any spare ships; now they must bear the actually rather limited brunt of that decision.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Not sure I follow. 50% of the journey "leg", by which I guess they mean the ferry element of my £42.40 Sail Rail ticket, isn't going to go very far.

If the fare covers more than the ferry, then the EU Regulation stipulates that the fare to be used is that which would be charged solely for the ferry element. Which I rather suspect is near to, if not higher than, the cost of your ticket. They would be rather unwise to try and fight things on that basis!

 

[cactustwirly]

Train companies do it all the time. And it is fanciful in the extreme for ferry companies to claim that bad weather on a previous day is the reason for a delay today. No, not having any contingency measures in place is the reason. And that is plainly within the ferry company's ambit: poor weather is not. They have made a commercial decision not to have any spare ships; now they must bear the actually rather limited brunt of that decision.

Feel free to name such a Ferry company that keeps ferries on standby...
It's a valid reason! The previous bad weather knocks the rotations out of sync, yes there is recovery time in the schedule, but not enough to absorb all the delays.
A train only requires 2 sets of crew, and a ferry requires at least 50-100!
Keeping a spare ferry just in case! Would be hugely expensive!

 

[monxton]

If the fare covers more than the ferry, then the EU Regulation stipulates that the fare to be used is that which would be charged solely for the ferry element. Which I rather suspect is near to, if not higher than, the cost of your ticket. They would be rather unwise to try and fight things on that basis!

That would be 50% of 39 euros then. I'm not going to get B&B with that.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

That would be 50% of 39 euros then. I'm not going to get B&B with that.

That is in addition to the cost of overnight accommodation, food etc.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Feel free to name such a Ferry company that keeps ferries on standby...
It's a valid reason! The previous bad weather knocks the rotations out of sync, yes there is recovery time in the schedule, but not enough to absorb all the delays.
A train only requires 2 sets of crew, and a ferry requires at least 50-100!
Keeping a spare ferry just in case! Would be hugely expensive!

I'm not familiar enough with the ferry industry to say which company might do that! But as I say - much though it may be expensive and difficult, it is eminently entirely possible to have a spare ferry - especially so at a major hub like Dublin for Irish Ferries(!) - and if they decide they want to skimp on that cost, they must accept that it means they may be liable for compensation for certain delays which they would otherwise not be liable for. The additional amount of compensation liability is almost certainly far less than the cost of keeping a spare ferry, so the ferry companies have no doubt calculated that it does not make economic sense to do it. But what they cannot do is to have their cake and eat it.

Giving a cop-out of "severe weather" will not do for a delay such as in this thread. If Irish Ferries had a suitable ferry in plave, they would be able to run the service perfectly on time, one might assume. Therefore it is not yesterday's weather that is to blame for the delay, but rather the fact that they have made the decision both not to leave sufficient turnaround time, and not to have any spare ferries. Turnaround time, stock scheduling etc. is something that is within the core function of a public transport operator, and thus if they fail at that, they cannot derogate responsibility to anyone or anything else.

 

[Llanigraham]

Train companies do it all the time. And it is fanciful in the extreme for ferry companies to claim that bad weather on a previous day is the reason for a delay today. No, not having any contingency measures in place is the reason. And that is plainly within the ferry company's ambit: poor weather is not. They have made a commercial decision not to have any spare ships; now they must bear the actually rather limited brunt of that decision.

Sorry, but that is rubbish.
I can think of no ferry operator in the UK that has a spare ship available to cover either weather problems or mechanical failure.
Have you actually thought of the implications both phsically and economically of what you have said?

 

[monxton]

That is in addition to the cost of overnight accommodation, food etc.

That's not how I read the document I posted earlier, unless they accept your view that the delay is not weather-related, which other posters think is unlikely. They have conveyed me to Holyhead, job done.

 

[cactustwirly]

I'm not familiar enough with the ferry industry to say which company might do that! But as I say - much though it may be expensive and difficult, it is eminently entirely possible to have a spare ferry - especially so at a major hub like Dublin for Irish Ferries(!) - and if they decide they want to skimp on that cost, they must accept that it means they may be liable for compensation for certain delays which they would otherwise not be liable for. The additional amount of compensation liability is almost certainly far less than the cost of keeping a spare ferry, so the ferry companies have no doubt calculated that it does not make economic sense to do it. But what they cannot do is to have their cake and eat it.

Giving a cop-out of "severe weather" will not do for a delay such as in this thread. If Irish Ferries had a suitable ferry in plave, they would be able to run the service perfectly on time, one might assume. Therefore it is not yesterday's weather that is to blame for the delay, but rather the fact that they have made the decision both not to leave sufficient turnaround time, and not to have any spare ferries. Turnaround time, stock scheduling etc. is something that is within the core function of a public transport operator, and thus if they fail at that, they cannot derogate responsibility to anyone or anything else.

Ferries are significantly more expensive to buy & operate than trains, therefore there are no UK ferry operators that have spares (winter refit cover aside)

Also bear in mind that foot passengers are only a small % of revenue, the vast bulk of which comes from freight and cars!

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

That's not how I read the document I posted earlier, unless they accept your view that the delay is not weather-related, which other posters think is unlikely. They have conveyed me to Holyhead, job done.

Unfortunately it's not that simple given you had a through ticket issued subject to CIV. As I've said, I don't believe previous causes of delay that have indirectly led to the situation, but which are not the active cause of the delay, can qualify. This is in line with what the European Court of Justice has ruled in relation to EC261 flight compensation, which runs along very similar lines.

 

[monxton]

For all of you eager for news ... Irish Ferries took so long to get us off the ship that we missed the 18:23, meaning that it's not possible to get the last train home. On the next train now, intending to break the journey in Wolverhampton and carry on tomorrow.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Sorry, but that is rubbish.
I can think of no ferry operator in the UK that has a spare ship available to cover either weather problems or mechanical failure.
Have you actually thought of the implications both phsically and economically of what you have said?

I'm not saying they are physically speaking obliged to do it. But if they decide that they want to skip out on it, they cannot have their cake and eat it - both have the reduced costs of operation and avoid compensation. It's pick or choose.