Same destination, same departure time, same train company

[Cheshire Scot]

Some years ago there were departures to Edinburgh from opposite sides of the same island platform at Birmingham New Street, one via Derby and the much faster one via Preston. It was particularly embarrassing for one particular passenger of my acquaintance who found himself heading towards Derby when his intended destination was Crewe as as he was a railway manager!

 

[swt_passenger]

Or just advertise the stopping train as going to Earsfield rather than London Waterloo.

Like TfL rail at Reading has a destination of Ealing Broadway rather than London Paddington

False destinations have been used regularly on SWT/SWR for years, where it’s absolutely necessary, eg the Poole to Farnborough (really Waterloo) service as was displayed at most stations west of Parkway.

Perhaps they don’t think it is needed in this example?

 

[Bletchleyite]

False destinations have been used regularly on SWT/SWR for years, where it’s absolutely necessary, eg the Poole to Farnborough (really Waterloo) service as was displayed at most stations west of Parkway.

Perhaps they don’t think it is needed in this example?

False destinations are a terrible idea, they confuse people more than they help.

I agree with the OP that for Advances and reservations we should use the Retail Service ID and show it on displays.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

How hard would it be to tweak the departure time of one of the "duplicated" (same departure time/same destination) services by a minute?

 

[biko]

Genuine question: why is there such resistance to showing a train number on a ticket and on screens? It doesn't remove any other information, it is known by most people in the context of flight numbers and people can just ignore it if they don't need it.

 

[zwk500]

How hard would it be to tweak the departure time of one of the "duplicated" (same departure time/same destination) services by a minute?

Incredibly easy. Although as an earlier poster mentioned, it can cause issues by breaking connections or similar.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

At Guildford the main board in the station displays the fastest train to London…

 

[boiledbeans2]

False destinations are a terrible idea, they confuse people more than they help.

I agree with the OP that for Advances and reservations we should use the Retail Service ID and show it on displays.

Note that in the specific example presented by the OP, no advances or reservations exist for a Guildford to London journey.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Mar 2022 ==

At Guildford the main board in the station displays the fastest train to London…

Yes, and they recently installed a large sign on the overbridge (the Platform 1 end) explaining that the fastest journeys to London are usually "via Woking" instead of Cobham or Epsom.

 

[johntea]

At Leeds there is usually a 'stopper' train to Sheffield on 17A and a 'express' train to Sheffield on 17B departing within 5 minutes of each other

Although if you want a stopper station anywhere after Barnsley probably still makes sense to catch the express and just change at Barnsley then wait for the stopper to catch up! (Probably not as bad these days to be fair but in years gone by your 17:30 stopper experience would involve a pacer absolutely packed to the rafters or an express 158!)

 

[zero]

I got caught out by this once at Surbiton near to midnight. I wanted a train that connected to the last one via Richmond to get the last District line

I don't remember exactly what happened, there was a platform change and the order of the trains changed because one was slightly delayed. But the destinations of all the trains are Waterloo so I mistakenly got on a fast train to Clapham Junction which made me have a 30 minute walk instead of 5 minutes.

 

[swt_passenger]

At Guildford the main board in the station displays the fastest train to London…

Yes, and they recently installed a large sign on the overbridge (the Platform 1 end) explaining that the fastest journeys to London are usually "via Woking" instead of Cobham or Epsom.

So it looks pretty much as if the whole thread is an exaggerated non issue then?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

So it looks pretty much as if the whole thread is an exaggerated non issue then?

Indeed, the departure board at Guildford will only show a via Cobham as the next train to London if it actually is the first arrival which is quite rare as usually by default a later train via Woking will arrive in Clapham/Waterloo earlier. The board reflects this.

 

[ashkeba]

And no, we don't want train ID numbers, regardless of what airlines, Germany, or Hong Kong, might do.

Why not? Just because foreigners got it right first? Didn't stop "us" nicking the TGV belatedly or adopting the Pendolino once someone else finished making it work.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why not? Just because foreigners got it right first? Didn't stop "us" nicking the TGV belatedly or adopting the Pendolino once someone else finished making it work.

Train ID numbers, aka flight numbers, are used across the world. The fact that we don't use them is British exceptionalism, and British exceptionalism almost always means it's us that are wrong.

Yes, they make sense. Yes, we should use them. Yes, they already exist - it's called the Retail Service ID - just need to make them public. They are shown on the outside displays of Voyagers, but I'm not aware of elsewhere. (Pendolinos used to but they show the headcode now).

 

[miklcct]

The old style dot matrix LED boards at the station clearly say "via Woking", "via Cobham" or "via Epsom"

The OP posted a new TV screen, which I guess was rolled out very recently (I don't remember seeing that screen when I was at Guildford station recently), so I'm sure improvements could be made. They could display "London Waterloo via Woking" instead of just "London Waterloo".

I can't clearly remember what's displayed on the dot matrix LED boards on Sundays, when both fast and slow services go "via Woking". If I remember, it says "Stopping Service" for the slow service on the boards?

It's impossible for a fast and slow via Woking to depart at the same time at Guildford because there is only one track in each direction between Guildford and Woking. But the issue may happen at Woking.

Note that in the specific example presented by the OP, no advances or reservations exist for a Guildford to London journey.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Mar 2022 ==


Yes, and they recently installed a large sign on the overbridge (the Platform 1 end) explaining that the fastest journeys to London are usually "via Woking" instead of Cobham or Epsom.

There are advances from Guildford to e.g. York which is routed LNER & Connections. If the connection is on the reservable fast train a reservation is given and printed on the ticket, and the passenger must travel on that train. However, if I force a connection on the slow service, then no reservation can be made on the connection and I can take any appropriate connecting service to London.

 

[VP185]

Easy, GWR do it from London Paddington.
The local stopping services used to be advertised as Twyford trains (the station before Reading) to avoid confusion with the high speed services, which are generally first stop Readin.
It works the other way as well with fast services from Reading advertised as London Paddington whereas the stopping services are advertised as Ealing Broadway.

 

[miklcct]

Easy, GWR do it from London Paddington.
The local stopping services used to be advertised as Twyford trains (the station before Reading) to avoid confusion with the high speed services, which are generally first stop Readin.
It works the other way as well with fast services from Reading advertised as London Paddington whereas the stopping services are advertised as Ealing Broadway.

So if we use false destination in this line, the Waterloo-bound train is advertised as Vauxhall at Guildford, and the Guildford-bound train is advertised as London Road at Waterloo and Clapham Junction, right?

 

[Kite159]

Easy, GWR do it from London Paddington.
The local stopping services used to be advertised as Twyford trains (the station before Reading) to avoid confusion with the high speed services, which are generally first stop Readin.
It works the other way as well with fast services from Reading advertised as London Paddington whereas the stopping services are advertised as Ealing Broadway.

Although these days with TfL Rail they are advertised as
"Reading via Twyford
Local Stopping Service"
Or for GWR towards Didcot
"Didcot Parkway
Local Stopping Service"

Although at Reading the stoppers are still advertised as Ealing Broadway, both TfL Rail & GWR

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Although these days with TfL Rail they are advertised as
"Reading via Twyford
Local Stopping Service"
Or for GWR towards Didcot
"Didcot Parkway
Local Stopping Service"

Although at Reading the stoppers are still advertised as Ealing Broadway, both TfL Rail & GWR

That will presumably have to change at Reading once they start running to exotic destinations such as Gidea Park and Abbey Wood!

 

[30907]

This shows that confusion can really happen if a reservation coupon only uses the time and destination as the identifier. Such reservation can happen for an advance ticket from Guildford to the North because the fast train is reservable, and catching the slow train by mistake can lead to missing the long distance train from London.

I note that the three 1634 departures are listed in such a way that the faster train comes first and is separated from the Cobham by the down train. The hierarchy means it is unlikely that the customer would choose the third. *
Even if they did, a 20-minute delay arriving Waterloo is unlikely to lead to a missed connection anyway, as cross-London allowances are so generous.

That said, simply labelling the slow as "Waterloo via Cobham" would be an effective measure (and save people having to read the small print!).

*I note that RTT has them in a different order.

 

[DelW]

The platform departure screens at Guildford show every calling point for the next train, with the expected arrival time each station, as a scrolling display.

The chances of anyone catching a train from platform 1 by mistake are really very small. Platform 1 is only ever used for stopping trains via Effingham, as there is no access to any other routes.

 

[kieron]

Or just advertise the stopping train as going to Earsfield rather than London Waterloo.

Someone who wants to get to Earlsfield (or Vauxhall for that matter) as soon as possible should catch the "via Woking" train and change at Clapham Junction. Someone else might value not having to change more.

Anyone who was only going to Wimbledon should catch the slower train, but putting that on the destination screen would confuse people who actually want a later stop.

It's impossible for a fast and slow via Woking to depart at the same time at Guildford because there is only one track in each direction between Guildford and Woking. But the issue may happen at Woking.

It could happen if they needed to clear the platform; one train would just have a red light in its immediate future. I've been on a train which did something like that, probably because both trains' departure times had been and gone, and the crew didn't want anyone else boarding the stopper.

 

[Oxfordblues]

I'm reminded of the scenario some years ago at Birmingham New Street with these two departures:
10:03 to Edinburgh Waverley
10:03 to Edinburgh Waverley

One was Virgin Trains and the other Virgin Cross-Country. Cue total confusion!

 

[norbitonflyer]

At one time there were three xx.12 departures from Waterloo (Windsor, Guildford via Woking, and Bournemouth), with no calling points in common except that two of them called at Clapham Junction. And I know of at least one person who got to Bournemouth over an hour late by taking the wrong train and then baling too early, so two further changes were necessary to get to the intended destination

 

[zwk500]

At one time there were three xx.12 departures from Waterloo (Windsor, Guildford via Woking, and Bournemouth), with no calling points in common except that two of them called at Clapham Junction. And I know of at least one person who got to Bournemouth over an hour late by taking the wrong train and then baling too early, so two further changes were necessary to get to the intended destination

I dont see how the railway could do much else in that situation though. The individual wanted Bournemouth and got on a train that didn't list Bournemouth as a calling point.

 

[ashkeba]

I dont see how the railway could do much else in that situation though. The individual wanted Bournemouth and got on a train that didn't list Bournemouth as a calling point.

Use train numbers?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Or just advertise the stopping train as going to Earsfield rather than London Waterloo.

Like TfL rail at Reading has a destination of Ealing Broadway rather than London Paddington

This is rather pedantic but it would be an advertised Vauxhall service under normal circumstances, not Earlsfield, and I agree it should be implemented.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Some years ago there were departures to Edinburgh from opposite sides of the same island platform at Birmingham New Street, one via Derby and the much faster one via Preston. It was particularly embarrassing for one particular passenger of my acquaintance who found himself heading towards Derby when his intended destination was Crewe as as he was a railway manager!

Would have been especially confusing pre-2008-ish when both trains on the platform would have been Virgin Voyagers.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Use train numbers?

But they're so un-British! Having them here too would ruin that aspect of the "exoticness" of overseas train travel...

 

[zwk500]

Use train numbers?

I mean, if you want Bournemouth and get on a train that never says its going as far as Bournemouth i don't see why a train number (or more likely on this area, a Line number) is going to make you any more attentive.