SBB CFF FFS considering direct trains to London.

[Peterthegreat]

I was under the impression that all international trains from Switzerland were on a special platform with security segregation due to the different customs zones and Swiss anxiety about freedom of movement.

That is obviously wrong I'm afraid.

Trains to Austria, Germany and Italy don't go near any secure platforms. Some trains to/from France may operate from "secure" platforms but by no means all.

 

[RT4038]

I was under the impression that all international trains from Switzerland were on a special platform with security segregation due to the different customs zones and Swiss anxiety about freedom of movement.

The 'French' platforms at Basel SBB, which may have been segregated in years gone by, are just bay (stub) platforms now, which the local trains towards Mulhouse use. They are certainly not secure in the way that those at Paris GdN or Brussels are. Maybe they could be converted so, but this would be a lot of work and expense for one train a day.. Long distance international trains to France, Germany now depart from the Swiss section of the station with no segregation at all.

 

[Stephen Lee]

Why don’t they reinstate the Brussels-Luxembourg-Strasbourg-Basel link first?

What stock do you think SBB would use if this did happen?

I guess EC250?

 

[Seehof]

They once looked at having some sort of business arrangement with Chiltern but gave up as they found the British system of running and operating trains too complicated. There is absolutely no way they will operate trains to the UK. Look how they have cut back on their international network and are currently fed up with strikes especially in France, Germany and Italy. I will eat a Swiss Alpine horn if ever this happens!!

 

[rvdborgt]

Why don’t they reinstate the Brussels-Luxembourg-Strasbourg-Basel link first?

Who would "they" be? SNCF for one don't want that train service.

 

[Stephen Lee]

Who would "they" be? SNCF for one don't want that train service.

There is a proposal of reinstating the route as part of TEE 2.0 proposal.

 

[rvdborgt]

There is a proposal of reinstating the route as part of TEE 2.0 proposal.

I had completely forgotten that Brussels - Luxembourg - Strasbourg - Basel - Milan was in the TEE 2.0 list. We'll have to see though if that will ever be implemented. I'm sure SNCF can come up with plenty of reasons not to be involved and to make life hard for anyone who'd like to operate it...

 

[StephenHunter]

Didn't TEE 2.0 get somewhat dropped with the change in government in Germany?

 

[AlbertBeale]

I was under the impression that all international trains from Switzerland were on a special platform with security segregation due to the different customs zones and Swiss anxiety about freedom of movement.

I presume you're referring to the main Basel station, where trains from France arrive. There's also a station on the other side of the river (though still in Switzerland at that point) where trains from Germany first arrive at a Swiss station. As far as I can remember, there are no obvious customs/security facilities there (though I guess there would have been once).

That is obviously wrong I'm afraid.

Trains to Austria, Germany and Italy don't go near any secure platforms. Some trains to/from France may operate from "secure" platforms but by no means all.

The separate - potentially "secure" - French platforms at Basel did have checks on passengers many years back. The facilities are still (just about) there, but seem largely unused - from what I remember from a year or two back. I think there are both terminating lines in the French section, as well as through lines. (Many years ago I was on a train which had checks on the French side and was then shunted along to the Swiss part before more technicalities and then continuing on.) In any case, the French bit of Basel station isn't, from my memory, sufficiently spacious or sufficiently secure to cope with a normal Eurostar check-in procedure.

 

[mad_rich]

You have to walk through a long, wide corridor beneath the tracks to reach the German platforms at Basel Bad Bhf. This is where the customs and passport checks used to be.

The customs checks still exist in theory, but I’ve never seen any personnel there, nor onboard the train when it continues to/ from other Swiss destinations.

I suspect they’re there, like they are at Geneva. But working on more targeted customs checks

 

[themiller]

On my first trip to Switzerland in 1997, the train from Paris was double headed by French diesels and consisted all SBB coaches. After stops at Belfort and Mulhouse the train ran straight into the Swiss platforms at Basel with no controls in place. The only two times that I’ve seen any controls in Switzerland were once on the metre-gauge FART/SSIF when officials removed a family from the train and once at Chiasso when a train from Italy arrived and gates were shut to direct passengers through checks. I’d been on that platform before the train arrived from Italy and remained on it during passenger checks but the officials were unconcerned and didn’t even approach me.

 

[RT4038]

On my first trip to Switzerland in 1997, the train from Paris was double headed by French diesels and consisted all SBB coaches. After stops at Belfort and Mulhouse the train ran straight into the Swiss platforms at Basel with no controls in place. The only two times that I’ve seen any controls in Switzerland were once on the metre-gauge FART/SSIF when officials removed a family from the train and once at Chiasso when a train from Italy arrived and gates were shut to direct passengers through checks. I’d been on that platform before the train arrived from Italy and remained on it during passenger checks but the officials were unconcerned and didn’t even approach me.

I expect you had been racially profiled already, and not seen to be a problem.

 

[Krokodil]

I expect you had been racially profiled already, and not seen to be a problem.

I'm white and got picked out for a passport check by immigration officers on the Zurich-Basel leg of a Lyria to Paris. Only one other person in the carriage was questioned (some issue with a work permit cropped up).

 

[AlbertBeale]

You have to walk through a long, wide corridor beneath the tracks to reach the German platforms at Basel Bad Bhf. This is where the customs and passport checks used to be.

The customs checks still exist in theory, but I’ve never seen any personnel there, nor onboard the train when it continues to/ from other Swiss destinations.

I suspect they’re there, like they are at Geneva. But working on more targeted customs checks

Thanks for this. But of course trains from Germany arriving at Basel Bad, besides continuing over the river and staying in Switzerland (with on-train checks), or terminating there (with arrivals using that corridor you mention), can also continue as through services back into Germany again (via two different routes - one of which goes via another Swiss station first). If there was a time when all these services existed, in the pre-Schengen era, the organisational system for what to do with which people on which train must have been problematic...

Often of course (when there's not a conflict happening), complex border situations are dealt with in a somewhat informal manner, meaning that locals tend to be able to come and go as they please. But the wiggly border between Germany and that bit of Basel on the same side of the river must have been almost unpoliceable even in wartime.

 

[iknowyeah]

I expect you had been racially profiled already, and not seen to be a problem.

I do this journey a lot as my partner lives in Bern, and the only people I've ever seen checked are non white people, with the exception of me and my dad when we were going to football in Basel, they even checked we had match tickets before letting us in!


I'd love this to become a reality as my usual itinerary is a rush from work after an early shift to get to Paris or Lille for a night, then to Strasbourg usually, however DB journey planner is advising me to bypass Basel completely if leaving Paris early, and get a TER from Belfort or Frasnes, which whilst quicker adds to the anxiety with the infrequency of local trains in France

 

[ivanhoe]

Some really good discussions on this thread. In reality, I feel that under current conditions, Basel is a step too far. The only location that I can see working is currently Frankfurt to London. Even then, it must allow Domestic/International travel between Frankfurt and Brussels, to make it work.
It is fraught with the same issues as trying to reach Basel.We need a Home Secretary with an open mind to look at the ability to increase rail opportunities beyond Paris, Brussels & Amsterdam. We can only hope!

 

[Krokodil]

Agreed, Frankfurt (calling at Cologne en route) is the only viable flow while the UK is not part of Schengen.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Agreed, Frankfurt (calling at Cologne en route) is the only viable flow while the UK is not part of Schengen.

Is there a consensus that Cologne and Frankfurt would both be viable (in the sense that there's the willingness and money - and UK border staffing - to set up clearance areas at both stations for UK-bound passengers)? I'm sure there'd be enough traffic to make a couple of return journeys each day worthwhile (especially if part of the train was used for within-Schengen passengers as far as Brussels, or at the very least Cologne); but there are obvious problems... especially space at Cologne! (Unless the pick-up for London-bound passengers was at other than Hbf; but I have no idea whether German travellers would expect long-distance/international trains to serve Hbf.) And would existing Channel Tunnel rolling stock run on the German system OK, or would this have to have special separate rolling stock?

 

[Krokodil]

While Frankfurt is an important destination in its own right, Cologne is particularly useful for onward connections to places like Berlin and Hamburg.

 

[Trainbike46]

Is there a consensus that Cologne and Frankfurt would both be viable (in the sense that there's the willingness and money - and UK border staffing - to set up clearance areas at both stations for UK-bound passengers)? I'm sure there'd be enough traffic to make a couple of return journeys each day worthwhile (especially if part of the train was used for within-Schengen passengers as far as Brussels, or at the very least Cologne); but there are obvious problems... especially space at Cologne! (Unless the pick-up for London-bound passengers was at other than Hbf; but I have no idea whether German travellers would expect long-distance/international trains to serve Hbf.) And would existing Channel Tunnel rolling stock run on the German system OK, or would this have to have special separate rolling stock?

At another thread, Geneva was also considered a viable cadidate, because:
- Relatively many flights to/from London, so a relatively large market
- Higher price segment of passengers (many business travellers and high-end leisure passengers)
- Geneva station set-up makes a separate area for passengers towards london more easily doable
- Could be combined with or replace ski-trains during skiing season - part of the market is already on eurostar

Regarding station usage in Köln; some long-distance/intercity trains already only serve Messe/Deutz station, and it is also used as a 'diversion' station during infrastructure works; if hbf isn't suitable for london bound service, i don't think it would cause major issues to run them from Messe/Deutz

German services are somewhat off-topic here though, because they definitely wouldn't be served by SBB

 

[37201xoIM]

I would love OEBB service to London, but it isn't going to happen in the near future, if ever, due to the issues stated up thread that SBB will face.

I agree that it would be great, to serve the vital Balsthal to St Pancras market!

BTW Ad the idea of Frankfurt: would you really want to be tying HS1 and the Tunnel, plus the French & Belgian HSLs, to German levels of performance? Not a wise idea operationally, I would suggest! At least the Basel idea has in its favour that it doesn't touch DB...

 

[Bald Rick]

Is there a consensus that Cologne and Frankfurt would both be viable (in the sense that there's the willingness and money - and UK border staffing - to set up clearance areas at both stations for UK-bound passengers)? I'm sure there'd be enough traffic to make a couple of return journeys each day worthwhile (especially if part of the train was used for within-Schengen passengers as far as Brussels, or at the very least Cologne); but there are obvious problems... especially space at Cologne! (Unless the pick-up for London-bound passengers was at other than Hbf; but I have no idea whether German travellers would expect long-distance/international trains to serve Hbf.) And would existing Channel Tunnel rolling stock run on the German system OK, or would this have to have special separate rolling stock?

Let’s put it this way: Frankfurt via Köln is probably the least unviable route between London and Germany.

The combined market is less than half the size of London - Amsterdam, with 3/4 of it to Frankfurt, which would be 5hrs away, which would limit market share to around 20% in my opinion.

Personal opinion is that such a route could, just, be viable, under current border control arrangements, perhaps for 2 trains a day, but you’d be looking at a need for an average fare of £200 return minimum, and probably more. And there’s a but…

Eurostar’s trains are not capable of operating on the German network from either a signalling or electrification point of view, so there would need to be a new build. To be fair you‘d need a new build anyway unless you were to stop services to Paris / Amsterdam to free up the units.

 

[30907]

I agree that it would be great, to serve the vital Balsthal to St Pancras market!

BTW Ad the idea of Frankfurt: would you really want to be tying HS1 and the Tunnel, plus the French & Belgian HSLs, to German levels of performance?

SNCF don't seem to be worried about this risk. Though it helps that none of the through Franco-German services attempt to cross the whole of Germany like DB ICEs (apart from one TGV to/from Munich, but that avoids the main problem areas).

Not a wise idea operationally, I would suggest! At least the Basel idea has in its favour that it doesn't touch DB...

I've not followed the discussion, but I wonder if a TGV Zurich-Basel-Strasbourg-CDG-Lille-Brussels would be worth considering (expanding the existing Strasbourg-Lille route). With a London connection at Lille, naturally.

 

[AlbertBeale]

I've not followed the discussion, but I wonder if a TGV Zurich-Basel-Strasbourg-CDG-Lille-Brussels would be worth considering (expanding the existing Strasbourg-Lille route). With a London connection at Lille, naturally.

With through ticketing, this might make a good option; easier (and quicker?) than changing in Paris for a Lyria from GdLyon. This would be the next best thing to a through London-Switzerland service.

 

[IanXC]

I tend to think the overall aim is to increase rail's market share, then I think a few things are true:

Koln and Frankfurt in themselves don't represent a huge market.

Koln is a key destination for its onward connections.

Koln Hbf is problematic from a border security point of view, and I'm not convinced that Messe/Deutz is any better really - especially considering the very segregated running lines and platforms which would likely be disrupted by keeping 2 for international services.

Setting up another set of UK border controls elsewhere is likely to be financially and politically difficult.

As far as I can see, the logical way to increase rail's market share is therefore to improve connections to the existing London services; some of these are in the works, some from this thread:

Brussels to Switzerland
Lille to Barcelona
Amsterdam to Copenhagen
Brussels to Berlin
Brussels to Munich

Those would seem much more achievable and likely to achieve a reasonable amount of the possible modal share.

 

[30907]

With through ticketing, this might make a good option; easier (and quicker?) than changing in Paris for a Lyria from GdLyon.

Though on reflection a Switzerland-Paris Est service would also work: even with a change at Strasbourg that route often comes up as fastest to London.

 

[AlbertBeale]

I tend to think the overall aim is to increase rail's market share, then I think a few things are true:

Koln and Frankfurt in themselves don't represent a huge market.

Koln is a key destination for its onward connections.

Koln Hbf is problematic from a border security point of view, and I'm not convinced that Messe/Deutz is any better really - especially considering the very segregated running lines and platforms which would likely be disrupted by keeping 2 for international services.

Setting up another set of UK border controls elsewhere is likely to be financially and politically difficult.

As far as I can see, the logical way to increase rail's market share is therefore to improve connections to the existing London services; some of these are in the works, some from this thread:

Brussels to Switzerland
Lille to Barcelona
Amsterdam to Copenhagen
Brussels to Berlin
Brussels to Munich

Those would seem much more achievable and likely to achieve a reasonable amount of the possible modal share.

Yes - the current lack of variety in the major destinations served by onward connections from Brussels is a pain. And having direct (and fairly speedy!) Brussels-Switzerland day-time services, ditto Brussels-Berlin, would presumably have a market besides people changing to/from London; hence the "not enough people to fill a direct London-Switzerland train" doesn't apply.

That combination of truths re Cologne is a key problem.

Re Brussels-Munich - of course there already is the occasional Paris-Munich direct service (from Est, so not a very hassly interchange).

Overall, in the absence of London services going beyond their current terminals, the next best thing has to be through ticketing onto major long-distance services from Lille, Brussels and Paris (esp from Est). But that still leaves Italy - with Frejus closed for a year or so, a direct service from Lille (or Paris Est) to, say Milan, via Basel or Geneva would be a boon.

Decent connections, and through ticketing (with guarantees of no-fuss re-booking if a scheduled connection doesn't work out), are I think the key to increasing rail share of these journeys.

Though on reflection a Switzerland-Paris Est service would also work: even with a change at Strasbourg that route often comes up as fastest to London.

The annoying thing at the moment, returning from Switzerland to the UK, is having to choose between an unpleasant cross-Paris interchange, or a much easier one from Est, but with an inevitable change of trains en route (with the extra possibility of a delayed connection - as happened to me last time I did it that way).

 

[mad_rich]

I think TGV Lyria used to run Lille-Geneva, but canned it.

 

[RT4038]

Yes - the current lack of variety in the major destinations served by onward connections from Brussels is a pain. And having direct (and fairly speedy!) Brussels-Switzerland day-time services, ditto Brussels-Berlin, would presumably have a market besides people changing to/from London; hence the "not enough people to fill a direct London-Switzerland train" doesn't apply.

I suspect that Brussels to Switzerland would not have sufficient market (from Brussels and hinterland, or changing from London) to justify a direct train. Nor Brussels-Berlin by itself. Possibly a Paris-Brussels-Cologne-Hannover -Berlin train would do, but not laid on top of existing services, and modifying existing trains to take full advantage of the churn of passengers would require a lot of co-operation between railway undertakings not known for such!

 

[Austriantrain]

I suspect that Brussels to Switzerland would not have sufficient market (from Brussels and hinterland, or changing from London) to justify a direct train. Nor Brussels-Berlin by itself. Possibly a Paris-Brussels-Cologne-Hannover -Berlin train would do, but not laid on top of existing services, and modifying existing trains to take full advantage of the churn of passengers would require a lot of co-operation between railway undertakings not known for such!

All of this would actually be very easy (DB reliabilty excepted, but not an issue towards Switzerland) *if* SNCF actually had a clue about running trains economically (they cannot change the high track access fees in France, but as long as they consider that a TGV set needs half a day off after running for half a day - except if they are used on Ouigo -and such, not even worth thinking about it).

As it is, connections in Lille have been getting worse for years, because of switching services to Ouigo with completely separated ticketing and starting them in Flandres instead of in Europe station. And with restricted capacities in St. Pancras, there will not be any great interest in improving connections anyway - better to earn more money on direct Paris trains.