Scarborough; TPEx reliability

[Boysteve]

So Northern have had, quite rightly, very poor media coverage since the timetable change. TPEx have actually escaped the media attention despite running many trains short of their destination. Over the past two weeks there have been numerous occasions when 2 or more trains in a row from Yorkshire to Manchester Airport have been turned around short at Victoria or Piccadilly. Coupled with late running that can give a 2 hour gap between successive arrivals at Manchester Airport from Leeds! What a great 30 minute service!
Anyway, today was the first weekday in 3 weeks that ALL scheduled TPEx services reached Scarborough. On some days upto 5 trains had been turned early at Malton. Have we turned a corner?
Scarborough is not a special case, Middlesborough has suffered also.

 

[jayah]

So Northern have had, quite rightly, very poor media coverage since the timetable change. TPEx have actually escaped the media attention despite running many trains short of their destination. Over the past two weeks there have been numerous occasions when 2 or more trains in a row from Yorkshire to Manchester Airport have been turned around short at Victoria or Piccadilly. Coupled with late running that can give a 2 hour gap between successive arrivals at Manchester Airport from Leeds! What a great 30 minute service!
Anyway, today was the first weekday in 3 weeks that ALL scheduled TPEx services reached Scarborough. On some days upto 5 trains had been turned early at Malton. Have we turned a corner?
Scarborough is not a special case, Middlesborough has suffered also.

Is there no way to turn round at Seamer?

Presume it is done to protect the punctuality of the return working. Looking at RealtimeTrains, the reversal is allowed 11mins which must make it a pretty vulnerable service all round.

The WTT when Liverpool is open has the trains from Liverpool arrive at Scarborough with almost no dead time en route, then 11mins later straight back to Liverpool. Pretty hopeful for a 2.5hr journey!

 

[30907]

Is there no way to turn round at Seamer?

No. And even if there were, it wouldn't be a brilliant place to detrain passengers.

 

[jayah]

In that case if a 2.5hr journey is more than about 10-15min late it will be turned at Malton. Looking at the Planning rules it says 20min coming beyond Leeds, 11min looks totally unrealistic.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

It is unrealistic as the staff have been saying for some time yet has fallen on deaf ears...

 

[The Planner]

If the TPR say 20 and its got 11 then its not compliant and shouldnt have been offered. Technically every delay minute should be attributed to the timetable. However TPE shouldnt have bid it that way if that was the case or accepted it if NR cut it back to 11.

 

[jayah]

If the TPR say 20 and its got 11 then its not compliant and shouldnt have been offered. Technically every delay minute should be attributed to the timetable. However TPE shouldnt have bid it that way if that was the case or accepted it if NR cut it back to 11.

It wouldn't exactly be the first time the industry had agreed to something that was neither sensible nor deliverable.

 

[Ploughman]

Turning back at Seamer.
It can be done but normally is only possible on possession working.
Needs the train to go down the Hull line to the double to single then set back into Seamer platform.

Or single line working back to Weaverthorpe and use the crossover there.

I think it used to be easier before the junction was remodelled and the single slip was removed.

The time taken however is almost equivalent to carrying on to Scarborough.

 

[jayah]

Turning back at Seamer.
It can be done but normally is only possible on possession working.
Needs the train to go down the Hull line to the double to single then set back into Seamer platform.

Or single line working back to Weaverthorpe and use the crossover there.

I think it used to be easier before the junction was remodelled and the single slip was removed.

The time taken however is almost equivalent to carrying on to Scarborough.

Well, folk need to start planning timetables that are realistic and achievable! So many threads, so much in common.

 

[bengley]

Turning back at Seamer.
It can be done but normally is only possible on possession working.
Needs the train to go down the Hull line to the double to single then set back into Seamer platform.

Or single line working back to Weaverthorpe and use the crossover there.

I think it used to be easier before the junction was remodelled and the single slip was removed.

The time taken however is almost equivalent to carrying on to Scarborough.

The single slip was still there at Seamer West when I worked a train through there on Friday...

 

[TBirdFrank]

TPE was a fine idea and brand when BR created it thirty odd years ago. Since then it has got worse, and worse, and worse, and now - after the changes of the last few weeks it is a steaming pile of ordure not fit for a supposedly sophisticated transport market like the UK.

I finally rode the new offering yesterday - a day which had its own problems for me, and my verdict is that we have been totally absolutely and beyond any contradiction shafted by a shambles, a disgrace, an insult to its users and the sooner this lot is in the bin and replaced the better - until then the M62, with all its faults wins hands down.

To catch the 08.05 from Piccadilly to Thirsk I now have to drive all the way into Manchester and pay city parking rates, leaving home a full hour before I would have done had it still been a Stalybridge stopper. I have to walk about a quarter of a mile to my train. At my destination I have a fifteen pound return taxi fare to pay and a thirty minute added journey and fretting time, hoping my cab appears to make my connections.

Whilst there I got an urgent call requiring me to return home. Luckily this co-incided with the one train an hour south so I made it and concerned myself with trying to resolve the problem that had occurred as we headed west. Usual nonsense of no telephone contact - please visit our website! My God 21st Century business administration and they have the cheek to tell you not to swear at their staff!

So we are just passing Ashton and the guard comes by and tells us that we are to be terminated at Victoria. The next connection to Piccadilly will be over half an hour! I tell my fellow passengers the tram will get them there while they would still be waiting at Victoria but it goes right over their heads! I did - they didn't!

I retrieve the Tbird from Piccadilly, fly home and check that we have indeed been conned by the event managers encountered but that last admission is five p.m. so that's that £245 up the swanee!

Conclusion - drive - it would have saved me two hours. I may have got home in time to rescue my friends'day. It would have cost no more, even for a single traveller. TPE will now cost me two hours more every time I travel North East. The Ordsall curve is indeed the biggest waste of resources and failure to address the problems it was meant to cure as was predicted all those years ago when the saddo rail community was calling me a Luddite. Well you have got it now - hope you like it! And standing on Platform 14 to head east and looking over to the wasted asset that is Mayfield - what a future we have allowed ourselves to be subjected to! Failing Grailing - CBE Man - Andy "all things" Burnham - you would laugh out loud if you were not already crying!

 

[Bovverboy]

To catch the 08.05 from Piccadilly to Thirsk I now have to drive all the way into Manchester and pay city parking rates, leaving home a full hour before I would have done had it still been a Stalybridge stopper. I have to walk about a quarter of a mile to my train.

What's wrong with catching the 0800 ex-Stalybridge (Hull train), changing at Huddersfield, or Dewsbury, or Leeds?

 

[fireftrm]

What's wrong with catching the 0800 ex-Stalybridge (Hull train), changing at Huddersfield, or Dewsbury, or Leeds?

TBirdFrank - As Bovverboy says - Exactly! This even gives you a nice waiting time on the platform at Huddersfield, or Leeds, to have a cuppa. Easy journey which suggests you have taken to complaining without doing any checking.....?

PS "Whilst there I got an urgent call .... Usual nonsense of no telephone contact - please visit our website! My God 21st Century business administration and they have the cheek to tell you not to swear at their staff!" What usual nonsense of no telephone contact, no telephone contact from who, about what etc? What has this to do with TPExpress??

 

[Ploughman]

The single slip was still there at Seamer West when I worked a train through there on Friday...

Thanks for the update, I could not remember it being reinstalled as part of the renewal years back.

 

[Bovverboy]

What's wrong with catching the 0800 ex-Stalybridge (Hull train), changing at Huddersfield, or Dewsbury, or Leeds?

Exactly! This even gives you a nice waiting time on the platform at Huddersfield, or Leeds, to have a cuppa.

While I made a point of listing all the possible changing points, the obvious one would be Leeds, where you wouldn't be overwhelmed by Leeds commuters.

 

[TBirdFrank]

When I am travelling I prefer one train and one seat throughout - not getting in and out to serve the interests of the useless operator who has hitherto provided trains from Tameside. We all know the reputation of TPE for overcrowding - so if you think I am stupid enough to fall for that one - think again.

Urgent phone call - adds to the stress of travelling - and then said useless operator cuts the service short! Again exactly what I do not want when in hurry.

You may like playing musical chairs - I don't

 

[Kieran1990]

Well hats off to our driver tonight. Left Vic on 1731 Scarborough 5 late and we’ve arrived in Leeds bang on time! Driver has flawed it all the way across the Pennines. I hold hope this will make it to Scarbourgh on time. After last week where it couldn’t manage an on time/ full journey completion on the 1731.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

With regards an 11-min turnaround time at Scarborough, the fault could lie with TPE for bidding it (although they should know better!) but if NR have tightened the paths beyond the limits of compliance, they should also have lodged a timetabling dispute.

Either way, the operator is pretty stupid to push ahead and try and operate it without a turnover set to maintain reliablility. Perhaps certain services should have been withdrawn until the loco-hauled sets materialised, sounds like too much, too quickly.

 

[mike57]

Things improved a bit last week no doubt helped by not running through to Liverpool. However 1 cancellation again this afternoon and many arrivals 10 mins late which leaves a problem at Seamer as connection to Filey and Brid is 5 mins with a 90 minute wait if you miss it. Another problem is the ridiculous timetabling at Malton, with the Scarborough departure timetable 3 minutes before the York departure, last Thursday a 1 min late arrival from York turned into a 6 late departure from Malton as the York bound train was 2 mins early and was let into the platform. I suspect things will get worse again once they are running to Liverpool again at the end of July.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Things improved a bit last week no doubt helped by not running through to Liverpool. However 1 cancellation again this afternoon and many arrivals 10 mins late which leaves a problem at Seamer as connection to Filey and Brid is 5 mins with a 90 minute wait if you miss it. Another problem is the ridiculous timetabling at Malton, with the Scarborough departure timetable 3 minutes before the York departure, last Thursday a 1 min late arrival from York turned into a 6 late departure from Malton as the York bound train was 2 mins early and was let into the platform. I suspect things will get worse again once they are running to Liverpool again at the end of July.

Are the departure times only 3 mins apart? If so, I suspect this is another timetabling non-compliance. Opposite direction platform reoccupation values are rarely less than 3-4 mins, and that’s before adding the 1-min dwell time.

 

[mike57]

Are the departure times only 3 mins apart? If so, I suspect this is another timetabling non-compliance. Opposite direction platform reoccupation values are rarely less than 3-4 mins, and that’s before adding the 1-min dwell time.

Yes 3 minutes for most of the day, York > Scarborough xx:08 and Scarborough > York xx:11

 

[Spartacus]

The official margin is 3 minutes between an eastbound departure and a westbound arrival provided there is an additional minute adjustment for the westbound service approaching Malton, although I dare say it's a bit tight be doing regularly.

 

[43074]

The official margin is 3 minutes between an eastbound departure and a westbound arrival provided there is an additional minute adjustment for the westbound service approaching Malton, although I dare say it's a bit tight be doing regularly.

Problem is the eastbound departure is before the westbound arrival, meaning if your train to Scarborough is, say, 5 late what do you do? Hold it and make it 10 late whilst the Liverpool bound calls but delay the return, or give the late running Scarborough bound train priority but delay the westbound train... I don't think you can win in that situation, that's just daft timetabling. Should've waited for the new fleets before implementing it IMO.

 

[Spartacus]

Problem is the eastbound departure is before the westbound arrival, meaning if your train to Scarborough is, say, 5 late what do you do? Hold it and make it 10 late whilst the Liverpool bound calls but delay the return, or give the late running Scarborough bound train priority but delay the westbound train... I don't think you can win in that situation, that's just daft timetabling. Should've waited for the new fleets before implementing it IMO.

Ideally you'd hold the train to Scarborough as it's got a much shorter distance to travel with less conflicts, but as it's probably get a very short turn around at Scarborough......

 

[geoffk]

I'be been wondering why TPE seems to have escaped scrutiny in the past few weeks.
Issues with the Scarborough service - short turn-round time at Scarborough, already mentioned. Part of the plan to save a unit.
In both directions, this has to overtake the Piccadilly - Leeds all-shacks service (Dewsbury eastbound and Mirfield/Heaton Lodge westbound) so a performance risk here if the latter is late.
East and westbound trains have to serve the single platform at Malton three minutes apart, mentioned above.
Late arrival at Seamer means missed connections with infrequent Wolds line service.
There's also the short single track section just past York (after the river bridge), put in to save two points apparently.
Will the new stock improve on the performance of the 185s? Let's hope so but summer is here and the Scarborough hoteliers will want a reliable service.
I've noted several Airport-bound services turned back at Victoria or Piccadilly and also saw on the screen at York a Middlesbrough turned back at Northallerton.
Then there are the problems faced by users of the local stations between Stalybridge and Huddersfield, with their skip-stop service.

 

[B&I]

TPE was a fine idea and brand when BR created it thirty odd years ago. Since then it has got worse, and worse, and worse, and now - after the changes of the last few weeks it is a steaming pile of ordure not fit for a supposedly sophisticated transport market like the UK.

I finally rode the new offering yesterday - a day which had its own problems for me, and my verdict is that we have been totally absolutely and beyond any contradiction shafted by a shambles, a disgrace, an insult to its users and the sooner this lot is in the bin and replaced the better - until then the M62, with all its faults wins hands down.

To catch the 08.05 from Piccadilly to Thirsk I now have to drive all the way into Manchester and pay city parking rates, leaving home a full hour before I would have done had it still been a Stalybridge stopper. I have to walk about a quarter of a mile to my train. At my destination I have a fifteen pound return taxi fare to pay and a thirty minute added journey and fretting time, hoping my cab appears to make my connections.

Whilst there I got an urgent call requiring me to return home. Luckily this co-incided with the one train an hour south so I made it and concerned myself with trying to resolve the problem that had occurred as we headed west. Usual nonsense of no telephone contact - please visit our website! My God 21st Century business administration and they have the cheek to tell you not to swear at their staff!

So we are just passing Ashton and the guard comes by and tells us that we are to be terminated at Victoria. The next connection to Piccadilly will be over half an hour! I tell my fellow passengers the tram will get them there while they would still be waiting at Victoria but it goes right over their heads! I did - they didn't!

I retrieve the Tbird from Piccadilly, fly home and check that we have indeed been conned by the event managers encountered but that last admission is five p.m. so that's that £245 up the swanee!

Conclusion - drive - it would have saved me two hours. I may have got home in time to rescue my friends'day. It would have cost no more, even for a single traveller. TPE will now cost me two hours more every time I travel North East. The Ordsall curve is indeed the biggest waste of resources and failure to address the problems it was meant to cure as was predicted all those years ago when the saddo rail community was calling me a Luddite. Well you have got it now - hope you like it! And standing on Platform 14 to head east and looking over to the wasted asset that is Mayfield - what a future we have allowed ourselves to be subjected to! Failing Grailing - CBE Man - Andy "all things" Burnham - you would laugh out loud if you were not already crying!

But go on, tell us how you really feel.

All joking aside, there is a serious lack of joined-up thinking when it comes to TPE, and an awful.lot of it seems to me to stem from TfL's idiotic insistence on trying to squeeze more capacity out of the existing network without any infrastructure investment.

Also, Frank's post illustrates the complete lack of thought (which bedevils transport planning as a whole outside London) about how people get from mainline stations to where they want to go. Not everyone lives in a city centre flat, or is going to a city centre office block, or has a company Lexus waiting for them at the station. What's the point in having a colossal number of Manchester-Leeds services per hour, when substandard local transport systems in their respective conurbations, and the haphazard pattern of stopping services on the mainline, make it far easier, door to door, to use the car ?

 

[B&I]

I'be been wondering why TPE seems to have escaped scrutiny in the past few weeks.
Issues with the Scarborough service - short turn-round time at Scarborough, already mentioned. Part of the plan to save a unit.
In both directions, this has to overtake the Piccadilly - Leeds all-shacks service (Dewsbury eastbound and Mirfield/Heaton Lodge westbound) so a performance risk here if the latter is late.
East and westbound trains have to serve the single platform at Malton three minutes apart, mentioned above.
Late arrival at Seamer means missed connections with infrequent Wolds line service.
There's also the short single track section just past York (after the river bridge), put in to save two points apparently.
Will the new stock improve on the performance of the 185s? Let's hope so but summer is here and the Scarborough hoteliers will want a reliable service.
I've noted several Airport-bound services turned back at Victoria or Piccadilly and also saw on the screen at York a Middlesbrough turned back at Northallerton.
Then there are the problems faced by users of the local stations between Stalybridge and Huddersfield, with their skip-stop service.

Sounds like the York and Malton infrastructure issues could be resolved fairly easily. The chronic congestion around central Manchester which arises from the messianic desire of the powers that be to give everywhere a direct service to Mancairport, maybe not so much

 

[Bantamzen]

When I am travelling I prefer one train and one seat throughout - not getting in and out to serve the interests of the useless operator who has hitherto provided trains from Tameside. We all know the reputation of TPE for overcrowding - so if you think I am stupid enough to fall for that one - think again.

Urgent phone call - adds to the stress of travelling - and then said useless operator cuts the service short! Again exactly what I do not want when in hurry.

You may like playing musical chairs - I don't

There are thousands of commuters every single day who would love a single train commute everyday. However, this isn't possible and frankly most users simply make the required change whether or not the was previous a through service. If having to change trains makes you want to drive all the way then fine, enjoy the M62 & all its almost daily snarl-ups. Personally I'd call it cutting off your nose to spite your face, but then I only have to use 4 trains, and weather depending 2 buses a day for my commute, so what would I know?

 

[Spartacus]

Yes, I must say, spending two hours to save having to change trains, and probably not even platforms, at Huddersfield does seem a bit on the extreme side.

 

[D6975]

If 1TPH in either direction is managing to cause problems at Malton, whatever is going to happen when/if the Northern stoppers to Scarborough commence? The installation of a second platform seems to be essential if a continuous farce is to be avoided.