Scarborough; TPEx reliability

[Spartacus]

If 1TPH in either direction is managing to cause problems at Malton, whatever is going to happen when/if the Northern stoppers to Scarborough commence? The installation of a second platform seems to be essential if a continuous farce is to be avoided.

It's more that they turn up so late from York that they regularly get cancelled at Malton, the tight margin at Malton's hardly making a difference. I can't see an extra ATN service making any difference to TPE's reliability, and would be pretty good at timekeeping all being well.

 

[The Lad]

There would seem to be a whole 50 mins in the hour that the platform is available to use though, the minimum headway can't be less the 10 Min surely?

 

[yorkguy]

17.50 from Scarborough to Manchester Victoria cancelled today, after being turned at Malton where it arrived 40 minutes late. Had a nice detour via Castleford between Leeds and York owing to a signal failure

 

[Kieran1990]

Not holding much hope for the 1731 Man Vic-SCA tonight making it all the way. Left a 2L from Vic but we’ve just left Stalybridge following the the delayed all shacks 17:17exPicc departure. Will be trailing it all the way Dewsbury now to loop it. Doubt it’ll be looped at Diggle in all honesty. Reckoning a 10/15 delay by Leeds going off of previous experience

 

[yorkguy]

And now that the cancelled 17.50 from Scarborough is sitting on the single platform at Malton waiting to form the 18.14 departure to Man Vic. the inbound Scarborough service (due Malton 18.08) will be blocked - though it seems to be running late anyway!

 

[mike57]

And yet another cancellation today, 16:45 ex York only got as far as Malton as it was running late. The problem at Malton is the timetable not the infrastructure, 4 trains per hour, two each way should be able to use a single platform if they are timetabled properly. The old timetable had 9 minutes between trains and worked OK most of the time. Bear in mind the single track section is only the length of the platform. To be honest reliability has reached such a low that I would rather see a self contained York Scarborough shuttle and contend with changing at York if I am Manchester bound.

 

[jayah]

And yet another cancellation today, 16:45 ex York only got as far as Malton as it was running late. The problem at Malton is the timetable not the infrastructure, 4 trains per hour, two each way should be able to use a single platform if they are timetabled properly. The old timetable had 9 minutes between trains and worked OK most of the time. Bear in mind the single track section is only the length of the platform. To be honest reliability has reached such a low that I would rather see a self contained York Scarborough shuttle and contend with changing at York if I am Manchester bound.

At the moment the performance is so poor that one of the two trains is quite likely to be 10min adrift. The minimum platform reoccupation down each hour, rarely gets tested.

 

[BurtonM]

Early turnbacks are standard practice for TPE and have been since the previous franchise. When they lost the 170s and had to run 185s to the diagrams, Hull services would regularly get reversed in P3 at Stalybridge, dumping all the passengers off to wait probably around 20 minutes for the next TPE to Piccadilly, before heading off back to Hull with nobody on board, and no doubt a load of peeved passengers at Piccadilly clogging up another unit.

 

[The Planner]

There would seem to be a whole 50 mins in the hour that the platform is available to use though, the minimum headway can't be less the 10 Min surely?

It is absolute block along there, so the headway is the length of time it is for the section plus two minutes for signaller duties.

Ive mentioned in another thread about how bad this move is as it is timetabled. It is another one that has been fudged through in my opinion. It is a 4 minute junction margin unless the up train has adjustment in whereupon it can drop to 3. However the adjustments are all wrong, without properly checking it is using engineering allowance which isn't actually required there. It should be performance allowance or adjustment allowance to keep them apart. The down train should have a minute engineering allowance approaching Malton but it is put at Scarborough to make the Malton crossing move work.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

So backtracking slightly - what is the longer term plan for the Malton interactions? Presumably the Scarboroughs are in their finalised paths south of York, so is the Down train going to sit outside Malton while the Up train calls, and then have 65ish minute turnarounds at Scarborough? Which both lengthens the (already fairly slow) journey time and breaks the coast connection at Seamer.

Or is the train from Scarborough intended to run earlier, call Malton first and then sit at York.

Either way it’s a bit of an odd way to timetable the branch.

 

[TBirdFrank]

Travelling north east from Tameside was a doddle until last month. An hourly service to at least York where changing was not a game of russian roulette as to whether you ever saw a seat again. Now you are forced either onto an all stations to Leeds, hardly a Trans Pennine EXPRESS, a rugby scrum at Huddersfield or the hour's wasted time and added expense going to Manchester. To suggest that this situation is a service improvement shows how desperate some people are to refuse to see plain reality.

We did not have to endure this until last month and I am neither stupid enough or compliant enough to give today's excuses for railway management an easy life by shutting up to allow them to get away with treating the travelling public this way.

There is a blinding fact out there that the industry and those who think it is perfect are missing. The car goes from my front door to my destination, direct, when I want to, day or night. I have paid for it and it would be plain silly not to use it for as many journeys as I can. It stops at my choice of watering hole, it diverts round delays or takes a different route. It carries - in my case - up to six extra passengers at no extra cost. Rail needs to compete with that and remember that my car doesn't carry swaggering drunks or football afficionados. It doesn't carry loud mouthed party people who invade first class with apparent immunity every night, especially at weekends, and if I want to make a detour or a three cornered journey I don't have to pay what one friend of mine calls a tax on spontaneity if you miss the advance fares by paying on the day.

If today's customers are expected to just lie down and take whatever is dished up when handing over their hard earned wedge, then sorry - it ain't going to happen. Look at a typical off peak train load and you will see that writ plain, the only reason people are there is because they don't have a car. The second they do they are gone. The commuters - bless them - really don't have a choice, but not all commutes are rail friendly, as I found out when made redundant from jobs close to transport hubs, and finding out that for many, no car equals no work, and many jobs are being decentralised by those exact departments and agencies that preach bike, or walk.

If government, national and local think this is any way to run the transport industry and get re-elected I would simply say - remember what happened to Roger Jones after the Manchester Congestion Charge Fiasco. His face at the next election was a picture, and I can only hope we see more walking mouths dumped out this way.

The public are unforgiving and the ballot box is a powerful weapon. It will be interesting to see how long it takes Burnham to be found out as the walking bag of wind he really is.

I honestly believe that we don't have the politicians or managers anywhere in sight to recover the industry from where it currently is. But that doesn't alter the fact that in the 21st Century in the 5th largest economy in the world - we surely should not be here.

 

[bbrez]

Travelling north east from Tameside was a doddle until last month. An hourly service to at least York where changing was not a game of russian roulette as to whether you ever saw a seat again. Now you are forced either onto an all stations to Leeds, hardly a Trans Pennine EXPRESS, a rugby scrum at Huddersfield or the hour's wasted time and added expense going to Manchester. To suggest that this situation is a service improvement shows how desperate some people are to refuse to see plain reality.

We did not have to endure this until last month and I am neither stupid enough or compliant enough to give today's excuses for railway management an easy life by shutting up to allow them to get away with treating the travelling public this way.

There is a blinding fact out there that the industry and those who think it is perfect are missing. The car goes from my front door to my destination, direct, when I want to, day or night. I have paid for it and it would be plain silly not to use it for as many journeys as I can. It stops at my choice of watering hole, it diverts round delays or takes a different route. It carries - in my case - up to six extra passengers at no extra cost. Rail needs to compete with that and remember that my car doesn't carry swaggering drunks or football afficionados. It doesn't carry loud mouthed party people who invade first class with apparent immunity every night, especially at weekends, and if I want to make a detour or a three cornered journey I don't have to pay what one friend of mine calls a tax on spontaneity if you miss the advance fares by paying on the day.

If today's customers are expected to just lie down and take whatever is dished up when handing over their hard earned wedge, then sorry - it ain't going to happen. Look at a typical off peak train load and you will see that writ plain, the only reason people are there is because they don't have a car. The second they do they are gone. The commuters - bless them - really don't have a choice, but not all commutes are rail friendly, as I found out when made redundant from jobs close to transport hubs, and finding out that for many, no car equals no work, and many jobs are being decentralised by those exact departments and agencies that preach bike, or walk.

If government, national and local think this is any way to run the transport industry and get re-elected I would simply say - remember what happened to Roger Jones after the Manchester Congestion Charge Fiasco. His face at the next election was a picture, and I can only hope we see more walking mouths dumped out this way.

The public are unforgiving and the ballot box is a powerful weapon. It will be interesting to see how long it takes Burnham to be found out as the walking bag of wind he really is.

I honestly believe that we don't have the politicians or managers anywhere in sight to recover the industry from where it currently is. But that doesn't alter the fact that in the 21st Century in the 5th largest economy in the world - we surely should not be here.

In the case of the railways, Burnham has no power, so I'm unsure how someone can be found out when all he can do is pressure the powers that be to review the chaos they have caused.

 

[mike57]

Taking up post #41, not going to quote it all.

There are two issues, the changes in May, and how rail transport is delivered, funded, and accountability.

The first one is easy, we have gone from something that worked OK most of the time to something that is not working. To me a simplistic solution would be to revert Northern and TPE to the old timetable and start again with a new timetable, hopefully learning from this disaster, which would be introduced in December. It won't happen but it should

The other wider issues have been debated in lots of threads, and are far more political, the big issue is should the railways be self funding or are they a public service which is subsidised out of taxpayer money.

The problem at the moment is accountability, if a service or TOC is not performing the only option seems to be take the franchise back into state control. What is needed is a setup where if a TOC fails to deliver the financial penalties are big enough to ensure that things change, and quickly

 

[fireftrm]

Travelling north east from Tameside was a doddle until last month. An hourly service to at least York where changing was not a game of russian roulette as to whether you ever saw a seat again. Now you are forced either onto an all stations to Leeds, hardly a Trans Pennine EXPRESS, a rugby scrum at Huddersfield or the hour's wasted time and added expense going to Manchester. To suggest that this situation is a service improvement shows how desperate some people are to refuse to see plain reality.

We did not have to endure this until last month and I am neither stupid enough or compliant enough to give today's excuses for railway management an easy life by shutting up to allow them to get away with treating the travelling public this way.

There is a blinding fact out there that the industry and those who think it is perfect are missing. The car goes from my front door to my destination, direct, when I want to, day or night. I have paid for it and it would be plain silly not to use it for as many journeys as I can. It stops at my choice of watering hole, it diverts round delays or takes a different route. It carries - in my case - up to six extra passengers at no extra cost. Rail needs to compete with that and remember that my car doesn't carry swaggering drunks or football afficionados. It doesn't carry loud mouthed party people who invade first class with apparent immunity every night, especially at weekends, and if I want to make a detour or a three cornered journey I don't have to pay what one friend of mine calls a tax on spontaneity if you miss the advance fares by paying on the day.

If today's customers are expected to just lie down and take whatever is dished up when handing over their hard earned wedge, then sorry - it ain't going to happen. Look at a typical off peak train load and you will see that writ plain, the only reason people are there is because they don't have a car. The second they do they are gone. The commuters - bless them - really don't have a choice, but not all commutes are rail friendly, as I found out when made redundant from jobs close to transport hubs, and finding out that for many, no car equals no work, and many jobs are being decentralised by those exact departments and agencies that preach bike, or walk.

If government, national and local think this is any way to run the transport industry and get re-elected I would simply say - remember what happened to Roger Jones after the Manchester Congestion Charge Fiasco. His face at the next election was a picture, and I can only hope we see more walking mouths dumped out this way.

The public are unforgiving and the ballot box is a powerful weapon. It will be interesting to see how long it takes Burnham to be found out as the walking bag of wind he really is.

I honestly believe that we don't have the politicians or managers anywhere in sight to recover the industry from where it currently is. But that doesn't alter the fact that in the 21st Century in the 5th largest economy in the world - we surely should not be here.

So until the timetable change you didn't use your car, which was far more conveneient and cheaper? Really?
You now can't get to the North East directly from Stalybridge, but you can to Leeds, which would be a normal drop off point in the rush hour so should get you a seat, more so in First which it appears you travel.
Of course you could simply leave home 20 minutes earlier, save the drive into the city centre and the cost of parking, by catching a train into Victoria at 0740 and get aboard your train there.
As has already been pointed out to you Andy Burnham has nothing to do with this - no doubt this is simply showing your political views.....
I have a car but use the train, my car and I are quite capable of driving to the places I go to, I prefer being able to sit/less stress/enjoy the views/work/have a cuppa/talk to others around me/keep my mileage on the car down/use less fuel so please put that thought thast people only travel off peak because they haven't a car back in your prejudices box

 

[xotGD]

I see today's Scarborough Spa Express arrived at the seaside on time. Perhaps a steam-hauled shuttle to and from York would do the trick?

 

[swissrailpassion]

Has the 1545 ex York made it to SCA on time once since 21 May?

 

[yorkie]

Today there appears to have been only one train departing Malton on time towards Scarborough, and that was the very first train of the day which starts at York.

 

[mike57]

Has the 1545 ex York made it to SCA on time once since 21 May?

Once or twice maybe and we are into 4th week. Tonight was 5L at Malton where I joined it, to get home via Seamer They then let the also late running 16:11 to York in first so it left Malton 9L missing connection at Seamer by a few minutes. Another taxi home at TPE expense from Scarborough, I got home about 30mins late.

Also another cancellation and some 20-30 lateness again today.

As I said in another thread trains are now noticeably less busy than pre 20th May. Caught the 17:31 last night from Man Vic to Seamer, it was half empty, literally, about 50% seats empty, and this is a peak hour service. The equivalent pre 20th May would have been 17:07 from Man Ox Rd which would be full and standing from Man Pic. In fact I always used to make sure I got on at Man Ox Rd to get a seat, as I always have a Manchester Stations ticket.

 

[yorkie]

Has the 1545 ex York made it to SCA on time once since 21 May?

On two occasions it departed Malton only 6-7 minutes late (after the westbound train, of course) and it arrived on time into Scarborough due to having loads of slack time for the last bit of the journey into Scarborough.

On one occasion (Mon 11 June) it actually left Malton on time, before the westbound train, which is highly unusual, and therefore got to Scarborough 6 minutes early. An on time departure from Malton is mega rare and this is unlikely to be repeated.

 

[philthetube]

Whilst there I got an urgent call requiring me to return home. Luckily this co-incided with the one train an hour south so I made it and concerned myself with trying to resolve the problem that had occurred as we headed west. Usual nonsense of no telephone contact - please visit our website! My God 21st Century business administration and they have the cheek to tell you not to swear at their staff!

The implication being that if trains don't run the way you want them to it is ok to swear at staff. I am sure they will be pleased that you are using your car.

 

[fireftrm]

The implication being that if trains don't run the way you want them to it is ok to swear at staff. I am sure they will be pleased that you are using your car.

Although TBird's previous reply would suggest the telephone call was nothing to do with the railway - seems such a genuinely nice man with logic at the heart of all he says

 

[1D53]

1834 & 1935 arrivals into Scarborough cancelled tonight and the 2035 20+ late. Not a great trip home for the cricket fans, game finished at 1800 and first train back to York left at 2102!

 

[scarby]

1834 & 1935 arrivals into Scarborough cancelled tonight and the 2035 20+ late. Not a great trip home for the cricket fans, game finished at 1800 and first train back to York left at 2102!

Or suppose you intended to catch the 1846 to go on to London for a day’s business conference the next day, a job interview at 0900 or to stay overnight at Heathrow prior to a 7am flight. You wouldn’t have got to King’s Cross until 0100.

 

[mike57]

Or suppose you intended to catch the 1846 to go on to London for a day’s business conference the next day, a job interview at 0900 or to stay overnight at Heathrow prior to a 7am flight. You wouldn’t have got to King’s Cross until 0100.

Unfortunately senior TPE executives draw their salary irrespective of what sort of service is offered. Until they are hit hard personally in their pockets nothing will change. People affected by the service meltdown post May 20th on the other hand face losing money, and possibly even the sack because they are unable to maintain attendance at their place of work.

What is even worse is that we have gone from something that worked OK most of the time to something that isn't.

Grass roots staff morale is at an all time low, they are having to deal with disgruntled passengers. I was speaking to a member of staff recently and he said that many staff are seeking opportunities elsewhere owing to the stress of working under these conditions, and he said that it is likely that at Scarborough we will have to suffer the current level of non service until at least December, there are no current plans to alter the timetable to remove some of the problems in the mean time.

I would expect to see passenger numbers at Scarborough/Seamer fall this year, and sooner or later there is going to be a major kick off from passengers at Malton or Scarborough when there are multiple cancellations. The staff at the sharp end don't deserve it, most of them do their best but they are being failed by their management.

I think the current franchise holder told the dft what they want to hear rather than what was feasible, and the Ordsall chord seems to have been the straw that breaks the camels back in terms of services through Man Ox Rd.

Currently the only workable solution to the Scarborough problem would be to run York Scarborough as a self contained shuttle, not ideal but better than the current mess

 

[SSp]

Surely if Scarborough has an hourly service, TPE should be always running that; if time then needs to be made up then do that later at Huddersfield or Stalybridge with more options west from there. Too simplistic?

 

[mike57]

Surely if Scarborough has an hourly service, TPE should be always running that; if time then needs to be made up then do that later at Huddersfield or Stalybridge with more options west from there. Too simplistic?

Yes it would, that's what seems to happen to Hull Manchester services. Out of about 18 services a day into and out of Scarborough an average of about 2 per day are cancelled, this has been happening consistently since the timetable change, and this is spite of trains being turned at Manchester during the Liverpool works, so they should have more units or more layover time.

 

[scarby]

They’re at it again today - 2 cancellations already.

Disgraceful. The company aren’t fit for purpose to operate a train service.

 

[mike57]

Now up to 3 today, 17.45 from York canceled.

Edit, checking RTT 19:51 departure at Scarborough is canceled as well. That means no trains to York from the 17:55 until 20:55 departure, which looks very unlikely to depart on time as its already 30ish late. This is not acceptable, I hope passengers stranded in Scarborough express their displeasure

 

[66Yorks]

A temporary solution would be to have a shuttle service between York and Scarborough. The bay platform at York (number 2 I think) is perfect for the job.

 

[30907]

A temporary solution would be to have a shuttle service between York and Scarborough. The bay platform at York (number 2 I think) is perfect for the job.

Indeed, but have TPE got the stock OR the crews?