Scope for improving links from Pendle to Manchester?

[Smeeps]

The Todmorden Curve opened a decade ago linking Burnley to Manchester Victoria but the journey from Colne (and the other Pendle stations) is still quite lengthy and inconvenient, Requiring a fairly long change at Rose Grove. Total journey time is over 1h45, nearly twice as long as the road journey time.

Obviously there's SELNEC which really needa building to link to Skipton but are there any plans or even vague scope to improve links to Manchester? For example, Dualling the line out of Burnley or adding sidings to allow passing and more than 1tph? I imagine a curve to allow direct trains through Burnley towards Tod is out of the question but perhaps transfers at Rose Grove could be improved with timetable changes? Or any other ideas?

Losing the direct Pendle to Manchester bus was enough of a loss, its a shame rail isn't a viable alternative for this journey.

Obviously I mean SELRAP not SELNEC!

 

[AlastairFraser]

The Todmorden Curve opened a decade ago linking Burnley to Manchester Victoria but the journey from Colne (and the other Pendle stations) is still quite lengthy and inconvenient, Requiring a fairly long change at Rose Grove. Total journey time is over 2h15, well over twice as long as the road journey time.

Obviously there's SELNEC which really needa building to link to Skipton but are there any plans or even vague scope to improve links to Manchester? For example, Dualling the line out of Burnley or adding sidings to allow passing and more than 1tph? I imagine a curve to allow direct trains through Burnley towards Tod is out of the question but perhaps transfers at Rose Grove could be improved with timetable changes? Or any other ideas?

Losing the direct Pendle to Manchester bus was enough of a loss, its a shame rail isn't a viable alternative for this journey.

Obviously I mean SELRAP not SELNEC!

Perhaps a passing loop or two from Gannow Jcn to Colne and extending the Blackburn to Rochdale service to start from Colne would be the best idea.

 

[biggerisbetter]

Perhaps a passing loop or two from Gannow Jcn to Colne and extending the Blackburn to Rochdale service to start from Colne would be the best idea.

Is there anything else from an infrastructure perspective that would prevent this such as platform lengths (would imagine it would need 4-car trains), paths between Blackburn and Rose Grove or paths through Blackburn station?

Otherwise would seem a positive intervention to me to provide some areas in need of an economic boost with a direct train to their nearest large city.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Is there anything else from an infrastructure perspective that would prevent this such as platform lengths (would imagine it would need 4-car trains), paths between Blackburn and Rose Grove or paths through Blackburn station?

Otherwise would seem a positive intervention to me to provide some areas in need of an economic boost with a direct train to their nearest large city.

Good point about platform lengths - 4 cars already operate as far as Rose Grove regularly (you'd have this one operate the same Blackburn- Accy - Rose Grove stopping patterns the semi fasts via Manchester Rd already do). Nelson is long enough I believe (according to the sectional appendix).

Colne, Brierfield and Burnley Central would possibly need short platform extensions or refurbishments. I wouldn't bother extending Burnley Barracks unless you turned into a M65 parkway station, it's not well patronised enough to warrant a stop on this service really.

You'd need at least one passing loop somewhere between Colne and Burnley, to allow it to pass the Colne stopper. I can't envisage any further issues that would require intervention.
As a result of the area's regeneration needs, I'd have thought the area could access some regeneration cash to implement the platform extensions and passing loop at least.

 

[philthetube]

4 cars have operated since singling, occasionally when Burnley play Blackburn or Preston, they probably need some TLC though for regular use.

 

[AlastairFraser]

4 cars have operated since singling, occasionally when Burnley play Blackburn or Preston, they probably need some TLC though for regular use.

Ah OK, so no platform extensions. Just a passing loop, which makes the business case easier.

 

[Tetchytyke]

A passing loop at Nelson would allow 2tph. Beyond that, it depends where you want to send those 2tph.

It is 46 minutes from Burnley Manchester Road to Manchester Victoria via Todmorden. Going the other way it is at least 70 minutes (21 Burnley Manchester Road to Blackburn, 49 Blackburn to Manchester Victoria via Darwen). So any Colne-Blackburn-Manchester service wouldn't be competitive on time from Burnley compared to the Copy Pit route.

But for Colne/Briarfield/Nelson it's obviously better than the current situation where the Colne-Preston train is carefully timetabled to miss all the connections into both the Leeds and Manchester trains at Rose Grove, Accrington, or Blackburn.

 

[AlastairFraser]

A passing loop at Nelson would allow 2tph. Beyond that, it depends where you want to send those 2tph.

It is 46 minutes from Burnley Manchester Road to Manchester Victoria via Todmorden. Going the other way it is at least 70 minutes (21 Burnley Manchester Road to Blackburn, 49 Blackburn to Manchester Victoria via Darwen). So any Colne-Blackburn-Manchester service wouldn't be competitive on time from Burnley compared to the Copy Pit route.

But for Colne/Briarfield/Nelson it's obviously better than the current situation where the Colne-Preston train is carefully timetabled to miss all the connections into both the Leeds and Manchester trains at Rose Grove, Accrington, or Blackburn.

It's not just about Manchester itself though. There's a fair amount of well paid jobs in parts of the Bolton area, and of course the Salford area has massive employers now that will be better to reach via Blackburn and Bolton, rather than via Todmorden and Rochdale.

It's also good to remember that Gannow Jcn is roughly 3 mins running time west of Burnley Manchester Road, so it's 67 mins from Gannow Jcn to Manchester via Blackburn on your timings.
Gannow Jcn is approx. 19 mins from Colne (I'd skip Burnley Barracks to save a min too).
So that's 1hr26 from Colne to Man Vic, and a portion will be getting off earlier in Bolton or Salford.
Not a bad idea.

 

[Smeeps]

It's not just about Manchester itself though. There's a fair amount of well paid jobs in parts of the Bolton area, and of course the Salford area has massive employers now that will be better to reach via Blackburn and Bolton, rather than via Todmorden and Rochdale.

It's also good to remember that Gannow Jcn is roughly 3 mins running time west of Burnley Manchester Road, so it's 67 mins from Gannow Jcn to Manchester via Blackburn on your timings.
Gannow Jcn is approx. 19 mins from Colne (I'd skip Burnley Barracks to save a min too).
So that's 1hr26 from Colne to Man Vic, and a portion will be getting off earlier in Bolton or Salford.
Not a bad idea.

1h26 Colne to Vic would be brilliant and becomes nearly competitive with the car, especially at rush hour. However the 16:04, 17:04, and 18:04 to Burnley from Vic are already oversubscribed so something would need to be done for more capacity there if they were then going to continue to Colne.

The price of the existing service is also quite high and isn't competition with diesel/petrol, especially not with carpooling. It may just be competitive with diesel plus city centre parking in Manchester

I had always hoped replacing the Pacers with Sprinters could shave a few minutes off the Burnley service but the Sprinters go the same speed. Is it line speed or timetable that restricts it?

 

[AlastairFraser]

1h26 Colne to Vic would be brilliant and becomes nearly competitive with the car, especially at rush hour. However the 16:04, 17:04, and 18:04 to Burnley from Vic are already oversubscribed so something would need to be done for more capacity there if they were then going to continue to Colne.

The price of the existing service is also quite high and isn't competition with diesel/petrol, especially not with carpooling. It may just be competitive with diesel plus city centre parking in Manchester

I had always hoped replacing the Pacers with Sprinters could shave a few minutes off the Burnley service but the Sprinters go the same speed. Is it line speed or timetable that restricts it?

Oh it wouldn't be the Burnley ones, it would be the hourly services on the Rochdale to Blackburn route that would be extended to Colne (i.e. Rochdale - Man Vic - Bolton - Darwen - Blackburn).
Yes, the price is quite high, but as you, it doesn't compare once you add Manchester parking costs.

I believe it's line speed that restricts on the Burnley to Todmorden section, Copy Pit is an incredibly slow section and would probably need tunnelling and/or electrification to see any journey time improvements.
Timetable Bolton to Man Vic may also be a constraint (this is true for the single line sections between Bolton to Blackburn too), so I doubt you'll see any realistic improvement in journey times.

 

[Topological]

Extending the Blackburn terminator to Colne makes sense.

However, would it be better to have a lighter alternative from Rose Grove to Colne and then stop all trains at Rose Grove for connections? As the Colne line does not handle freight, a light rail based solution could be used to provide a train every 15 minutes (or 20 minutes) with 2 loops. This would connect the communities at almost turn up and go and give enough options for onward journeys.

The present Blackburn terminator could also come to Rose Grove if an appropriate station design was produced.

 

[biggerisbetter]

Funnily enough I was wondering the exact same thing. I think to work effectively though you would need more stops than at present and I am not sure that for a tram, Burnley Central is quite central enough. Resolving both of these points would push costs of conversion up quite a bit and therefore likely unviable in my view.

 

[30907]

Funnily enough I was wondering the exact same thing. I think to work effectively though you would need more stops than at present and I am not sure that for a tram, Burnley Central is quite central enough.

Nor, TBH, is Colne.

 

[Halish Railway]

I’ve said about this on another thread but a Colne to Manchester Victoria service that reverses at Rose Grove would be a great addition to the network and would give an incentive to upgrade the Copy Pit route and maybe the stretch of the Calder Valley line between Todmorden and Rochdale to facilitate higher linespeeds.

If such a service had a stopping pattern of Colne, Nelson, Brierfield, Burnley Central, Rose Grove, Burnley Manchester Road, Todmorden, Rochdale and Manchester Victoria with increased linespeeds it would be incredibly competitive with driving, especially at rush hour.

 

[Bevan Price]

I’ve said about this on another thread but a Colne to Manchester Victoria service that reverses at Rose Grove would be a great addition to the network and would give an incentive to upgrade the Copy Pit route and maybe the stretch of the Calder Valley line between Todmorden and Rochdale to facilitate higher linespeeds.

If such a service had a stopping pattern of Colne, Nelson, Brierfield, Burnley Central, Rose Grove, Burnley Manchester Road, Todmorden, Rochdale and Manchester Victoria with increased linespeeds it would be incredibly competitive with driving, especially at rush hour.

But how many people from Colne, Nelson, etc. actually need to travel to/from Manchester every working day ? Enough to sustain an all-day passenger service ?

 

[AlastairFraser]

Extending the Blackburn terminator to Colne makes sense.

However, would it be better to have a lighter alternative from Rose Grove to Colne and then stop all trains at Rose Grove for connections? As the Colne line does not handle freight, a light rail based solution could be used to provide a train every 15 minutes (or 20 minutes) with 2 loops. This would connect the communities at almost turn up and go and give enough options for onward journeys.

The present Blackburn terminator could also come to Rose Grove if an appropriate station design was produced.

No, it would obstruct Skipton to Colne reopening, and you'd need many more stops to justify a 15 min frequency (Daneshouse/Reedley/Lomeshaye Rd/Walton Ln at least). Consider increasing frequency and adding stations when you have built passenger numbers up a bit.

I’ve said about this on another thread but a Colne to Manchester Victoria service that reverses at Rose Grove would be a great addition to the network and would give an incentive to upgrade the Copy Pit route and maybe the stretch of the Calder Valley line between Todmorden and Rochdale to facilitate higher linespeeds.

If such a service had a stopping pattern of Colne, Nelson, Brierfield, Burnley Central, Rose Grove, Burnley Manchester Road, Todmorden, Rochdale and Manchester Victoria with increased linespeeds it would be incredibly competitive with driving, especially at rush hour.

Upgrading Copy Pit is only possible with electrification (which would only be done as part of a whole East Lancs/Calder Valley electrification scheme) and then expensive tunnelling/viaducts.
Very difficult. Then upgrading Todmorden to Rochdale is another difficult one, because you'd be electrifying Summit tunnel and that's going to be a huge job.
If you wanted an interim solution from the southern Pendle towns to Manchester that took around 1hr15, it would be better to run an express shuttle bus calling Colne - Nelson - Brierfield to Rawtenstall, to meet an extended Metrolink there.

 

[Topological]

No, it would obstruct Skipton to Colne reopening, and you'd need many more stops to justify a 15 min frequency (Daneshouse/Reedley/Lomeshaye Rd/Walton Ln at least). Consider increasing frequency and adding stations when you have built passenger numbers up a bit.

Upgrading Copy Pit is only possible with electrification (which would only be done as part of a whole East Lancs/Calder Valley electrification scheme) and then expensive tunnelling/viaducts.
Very difficult. Then upgrading Todmorden to Rochdale is another difficult one, because you'd be electrifying Summit tunnel and that's going to be a huge job.
If you wanted an interim solution from the southern Pendle towns to Manchester that took around 1hr15, it would be better to run an express shuttle bus calling Colne - Nelson - Brierfield to Rawtenstall, to meet an extended Metrolink there.

Optimism is wonderful, but it is highly unlikely that Colne to Skipton will re-open and providing passive provision at the expense of achievable upgrades seems like a counterproductive endeavour.

You can say that the service proposed should start with a lower frequency, but a lighter alternative to rail seems to make most sense if there is to be an increase in service at all.

On Copy Pit, I do not know if there are upgrades that can be done for speed. I suspect that the benefits would not stack up even without electrification. Far better to just ensure that there is the frequency of service for all.

Have you estimated how long it would take to use Metrolink + Bus versus some of the suggested rail connection times involving 1 change at Rose Grove*?

 

[AlastairFraser]

Optimism is wonderful, but it is highly unlikely that Colne to Skipton will re-open and providing passive provision at the expense of achievable upgrades seems like a counterproductive endeavour.

You can say that the service proposed should start with a lower frequency, but a lighter alternative to rail seems to make most sense if there is to be an increase in service at all.

How does it make more sense when you have an existing direct service into Manchester and Salford that would only need to be extended 35 mins down the line to serve the Pendle towns stops? Light rail investment would require dedicated units, including a depot somewhere east of Gannow Jcn, dedicated staff (so increased subsidy, instead of Northern staff that can work on any line) and considerable investment in new infrastructure and stations.

On Copy Pit, I do not know if there are upgrades that can be done for speed. I suspect that the benefits would not stack up even without electrification. Far better to just ensure that there is the frequency of service for all.

Have you estimated how long it would take to use Metrolink + Bus versus some of the suggested rail connection times involving 1 change at Rose Grove*?

The Copy Pit route has already been significantly upgraded for the reintroduction of Burnley - Manchester services via the Todmorden curve. Electrification is the next option.
A bus from outside Colne railway station stopping at the closest bus stops to Nelson and Brierfield stations would take 33 mins to Rawtenstall station, using the lightly used and high-quality M65 and A56 routes to reach Rawtenstall after leaving Brierfield. Add 2 mins for recovery time and that takes you to 35 mins.

After that, Metrolink to Victoria would be around 40 mins with some speed upgrades to 50 mph on the ELR, so that the M5000s can use their top speed. You'd connect with the ELR at the old junction site about 3/4 of a mile south of Bury Interchange (about 25 mins from Victoria) and then you'd have 15 mins to do the 8.5 miles from that junction to Rawtenstall with stops at Bury Bolton St, Ramsbottom and possibly Irwell Vale.

So, a total time of 1hr15/1hr20 (adding around 5 mins for interchange at Rawtenstall if you wanted) for that option.
From Colne to Rose Grove, it's 19 minutes. Rose Grove to Victoria via Rochdale is 59 mins, so 1hr 18 plus changing time (because you'd need a dedicated platform for the light rail on a 15 min frequency to avoid clashing with the heavy rail services, and to account for the fact that the Rose Grove to Victoria is only hourly).

Rose Grove to Victoria via Bolton would require a change at Bolton, so doesn't meet your criteria anyway, but hypothetically 23 mins to Blackburn + 49 mins Blackburn to Victoria + change time at Blackburn.

 

[HSTEd]

How does it make more sense when you have an existing direct service into Manchester and Salford that would only need to be extended 35 mins down the line to serve the Pendle towns stops? Light rail investment would require dedicated units, including a depot somewhere east of Gannow Jcn, dedicated staff (so increased subsidy, instead of Northern staff that can work on any line) and considerable investment in new infrastructure and stations.

Light rail is likely to achieve overall lower staff costs because of the reduction in strength.

Light rail in the UK normally operates DOO and Northern does not

 

[AlastairFraser]

Light rail is likely to achieve overall lower staff costs because of the reduction in strength.

Light rail in the UK normally operates DOO and Northern does not

But the savings in guard costs compared to the capital costs of new units, wires, new stations are going to take years and years to make any difference.

If you wanted a branch where light rail does make sense, converting the South Fylde branch to light rail from Squires Gate to dedicated platforms just west of Kirkham and Wesham station and extending the tramway over it would make way more sense.

You could operate a higher frequency and connect at Kirkham and Wesham into a sizeable range of destinations, instead of one train per hour going the whole way into Preston, where changing is much more difficult because of the station layout.
The maintenance costs of operating both Blackpool Pleasure Beach and Blackpool South stations, plus nearly 1.5 miles of track is saved, plus you can open new stops cheaply to serve e.g. the growing village of Wrea Green and the Lytham council estates of Saltcotes.

 

[Halish Railway]

Upgrading Copy Pit is only possible with electrification (which would only be done as part of a whole East Lancs/Calder Valley electrification scheme) and then expensive tunnelling/viaducts.
Very difficult. Then upgrading Todmorden to Rochdale is another difficult one, because you'd be electrifying Summit tunnel and that's going to be a huge job.

What makes you say this? The Calder Valley line has already seen significant improvements to linespeeds without electrification (90 mph for Multiple Units towards Manchester south of Rochdale, 80 mph going the other way), as well as various increases between Hebden Bridge and Bradford Interchange, most notably going from 55 mph to 80 mph between Low Moor and Halifax.

Rochdale to Todmorden was untouched by the upgrades that happened a few years ago, despite having wide, sweeping curves south of Summit Tunnel. The twisty nature of Todmorden to Hebden Bridge leaves little scope for improvement.

 

[AlastairFraser]

What makes you say this? The Calder Valley line has already seen significant improvements to linespeeds without electrification (90 mph for Multiple Units towards Manchester south of Rochdale, 80 mph going the other way), as well as various increases between Hebden Bridge and Bradford Interchange, most notably going from 55 mph to 80 mph between Low Moor and Halifax.

Rochdale to Todmorden was untouched by the upgrades that happened a few years ago, despite having wide, sweeping curves south of Summit Tunnel. The twisty nature of Todmorden to Hebden Bridge leaves little scope for improvement.

The alignment and gradients of the Copy Pit route are rubbish in comparison to the Calder Valley line proper. The geometry of the curves, especially east of Portsmouth, is completely different to those that you would need to permit higher line speeds.

 

[Halish Railway]

The alignment and gradients of the Copy Pit route are rubbish in comparison to the Calder Valley line proper. The geometry of the curves, especially east of Portsmouth, is completely different to those that you would need to permit higher line speeds.

Between Portsmouth and Todmorden is certainly very twisty, but between Portsmouth and Burnley Manchester Road the curves are much shallower and that stretch makes up more than half of the route.

The Calder Valley route itself is not devoid of very steep gradients, most noticeably the climb from Manchester Victoria and Miles Platting, both routes out of Bradford Interchange and the climb from Leeds to New Pudsey. The Class 195s have demonstrated their worth by being able to ascend these gradients much quicker than the Sprinters they displaced.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Between Portsmouth and Todmorden is certainly very twisty, but between Portsmouth and Burnley Manchester Road the curves are much shallower and that stretch makes up more than half of the route.

But you'll still have to make significant investments to improve the general line speed for even half the route. Electrification is possible and it would improve timings even on the extremely curvy part, but the line is not a high priority even then.

 

[Halish Railway]

But you'll still have to make significant investments to improve the general line speed for even half the route. Electrification is possible and it would improve timings even on the extremely curvy part, but the line is not a high priority even then.

Electrification will only save you a matter of seconds over a Class 195 at speeds up to 45mph.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Electrification will only save you a matter of seconds over a Class 195 at speeds up to 45mph.

Even with the constant acceleration and deceleration over the Copy Pit section (and at other speed restricted locations along the East Lancs e.g. Accrington viaduct)?

 

[Halish Railway]

Even with the constant acceleration and deceleration over the Copy Pit section (and at other speed restricted locations along the East Lancs e.g. Accrington viaduct)?

No I don’t believe that electrification will make much of a difference between Todmorden and Preston, as the 195s can reach the current linespeeds with ease. Part of the reason that the Transpennine Route upgrade is as comprehensive as it is was that electrification alone would hardly present any journey time reductions over the incumbent high performance DMUs.

 

[AlastairFraser]

No I don’t believe that electrification will make much of a difference between Todmorden and Preston, as the 195s can reach the current linespeeds with ease. Part of the reason that the Transpennine Route upgrade is as comprehensive as it is was that electrification alone would hardly present any journey time reductions over the incumbent high performance DMUs.

I get your point about TPRU, but you also have to consider the stopper journey times Preston to Colne/the Headbolt Lane to Blackburn or Clitheroe/Blackburn to Rochdale services when you consider electrification of the East Lancs.

Especially with the Preston to Colne stopper, there are lots of stops that are less than a mile apart and the Sprinters accelerating like a pile of bricks on a trolley has a significant impact on timings.
For example, Cherry Tree to Mill Hill is only around 0.65 miles, Church & Oswaldtwistle to Accrington is only 0.87 miles, Burnley Barracks to Burnley Central is about 0.6 miles, and there are many more stops that are between 1 and 1.5 miles apart.

 

[Halish Railway]

Especially with the Preston to Colne stopper, there are lots of stops that are less than a mile apart and the Sprinters accelerating like a pile of bricks on a trolley has a significant impact on timings.
For example, Cherry Tree to Mill Hill is only around 0.65 miles, Church & Oswaldtwistle to Accrington is only 0.87 miles, Burnley Barracks to Burnley Central is about 0.6 miles, and there are many more stops that are between 1 and 1.5 miles apart.

I agree that electric traction is by far the best solution for circumstances like that, but newer DMUs with either six-speed or electric transmissions can pull away from stations very quickly, rather than older DMUs with hydraulic transmissions being used on routes where they spend much of their time in the very inefficient torque converter stage.

Hopefully common sense can prevail in Northern’s stock allocations once they have received their 150/155/156 replacements, with either their new trains which will likely have electric motors if they’re bi or tri mode units, or 195s.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I agree that electric traction is by far the best solution for circumstances like that, but newer DMUs with either six-speed or electric transmissions can pull away from stations very quickly, rather than older DMUs with hydraulic transmissions being used on routes where they spend much of their time in the very inefficient torque converter stage.

Hopefully common sense can prevail in Northern’s stock allocations once they have received their 150/155/156 replacements, with either their new trains which will likely have electric motors if they’re bi or tri mode units, or 195s.

Agreed. Back on the forum topic, extending the Rochdale to Blackburn service to Colne seems like the best compromise in the meantime to offer the southern Pendle towns and the northern end of Burnley better access to Manchester, at the small cost of a passing loop at Nelson.