Scotrail DOO dispute: what's happening?

[me123]

I know this argument runs its course every time someone (often me, admittedly) brings it up. I'm not going to start it up all over again, so don't worry!

But it's almost been a month now since I've heard anything on the news or from the RMT regarding the Scotrail strike action. For those of you who don't know, they've been striking because the new Airdrie-Bathgate rail line is set to be operated without a guard, but with a ticket inspector as per Scotrail's contractual obligations.

What's happening with this? Are there going to be more strikes? Have the union backed down or surrendered? Or are they just keeping quiet for now whilst they plan their next move?

There's been nothing in the news now for weeks, no strikes since the end of April (I think), and although the RMT still have it on their website as a campaign, it's clearly not been kept up to date. (It's saying that members will protest on the Scottish Parliament on the 5th of May, but that's already happened).

 

[rail-britain]

Talks have yet to resume (due the second week of June)

It's not looking good as the Scottish Parliament is due to discuss cutting transport funding before the next meeting between ScotRail and RMT, at ACAS

The last two meetings of the parliamentary bureau have pretty much remained unchanged since the original paper of November 2009

See :
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/business/chamber/mop-10/mop10-05-05.htm
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/business/pb-docs/S3/pb-10/minutes-100504.pdf
Full transcript :
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/business/officialReports/meetingsParliament/or-10/sor0505-02.htm

Ironically, the First Minister was adamant that the scheme only provided for DOO, the RMT would therefore been aware of this in 2005, and the argument then moved on to covering the costs of the strike (currently £300,000) and to ensure this cost was not passed as claim to the parliament

Personally, it looks like the RMT have conceeded the point as they will be liable for these costs

 

[CarterUSM]

I know this argument runs its course every time someone (often me, admittedly) brings it up. I'm not going to start it up all over again, so don't worry!

But it's almost been a month now since I've heard anything on the news or from the RMT regarding the Scotrail strike action. For those of you who don't know, they've been striking because the new Airdrie-Bathgate rail line is set to be operated without a guard, but with a ticket inspector as per Scotrail's contractual obligations.

What's happening with this? Are there going to be more strikes? Have the union backed down or surrendered? Or are they just keeping quiet for now whilst they plan their next move?

There's been nothing in the news now for weeks, no strikes since the end of April (I think), and although the RMT still have it on their website as a campaign, it's clearly not been kept up to date. (It's saying that members will protest on the Scottish Parliament on the 5th of May, but that's already happened).

Things are quiet at the moment, the union is holding meetings with the members to see what they want, but have stated that it is a political arguement now. Not sure about it being a contractual obligation to provide a service with a ticket examiner me123, scotrail specifically asked for the funding to provide a scab army to mitigate the consequences of a strike, if this had not been forthcoming then it would be a guarded service. To be frank, it has been a bit of a stitch up as i've mentioned before. Admittedly there has been less than spectacular behaviour from all sides all the same.

 

[me123]

AIUI, I thought that Scotrail had to have a second person on all trains; as well as the driver, there should be a guard/conductor or ticket examiner as appropriate. It's since become clear that this doesn't always happen - in some cases in Strathclyde trains have been operated without ticket examiners apparently.

That's my understanding of it, but given the amount of conflicting information flying from both sides at the moment you can understand if I'm getting a bit mixed up!

As I've said, I think this debate has been recycled over and over again and I don't think it's time to revive it again. But thanks for the update guys. A few weeks back, it was never off the news; I was wondering if the RMT had quietly retreated or if there was more action (industrial or political) coming up. I look forward to seeing the future developments.

 

[CarterUSM]

AIUI, I thought that Scotrail had to have a second person on all trains; as well as the driver, there should be a guard/conductor or ticket examiner as appropriate. It's since become clear that this doesn't always happen - in some cases in Strathclyde trains have been operated without ticket examiners apparently.

That's my understanding of it, but given the amount of conflicting information flying from both sides at the moment you can understand if I'm getting a bit mixed up!

As I've said, I think this debate has been recycled over and over again and I don't think it's time to revive it again. But thanks for the update guys. A few weeks back, it was never off the news; I was wondering if the RMT had quietly retreated or if there was more action (industrial or political) coming up. I look forward to seeing the future developments.

Yes, you were perfectly correct in the manning assumption mate, and to be fair, there has been a fair bit of mud slung around also. Incidently, there have been around 50 odd ticket examiners recruited since that announcement about trains with no TE aboard. Good news for those looking for work.

 

[Failed Unit]

I guess from the RMT side the strikes are not really disrupting service except on the rural routes which will never go over to DOO. If the strikes don't disrupt services is there much point in railway members losing pay. Is that statement defeatist? Not trying to reopen old debates just wondering where the RMT can go from here with the disruption minimal to most routes.

 

[CarterUSM]

I guess from the RMT side the strikes are not really disrupting service except on the rural routes which will never go over to DOO. If the strikes don't disrupt services is there much point in railway members losing pay. Is that statement defeatist? Not trying to reopen old debates just wondering where the RMT can go from here with the disruption minimal to most routes.

No, you are absolutely correct to pose that query, many of the staff feel the same. I am at a bit of a loss myself, it seems that lobbying is the only way, and I do not think there will be much success there. I'm sure the mothers of the folk who came out strikebreaking are proud of them though.

 

[rail-britain]

AIUI, I thought that Scotrail had to have a second person on all trains; as well as the driver, there should be a guard/conductor or ticket examiner as appropriate. It's since become clear that this doesn't always happen - in some cases in Strathclyde trains have been operated without ticket examiners apparently

A DMU must have a second "person", but there is no such requirement on a EMU although it is preferred
This how the whole argument over DOO came about

Under NatEx there used to be a shortage of Ticket Examiners, there were only just enough to man the trains
Under First there was more emphasis on gate, so in effect there is vastly more flexibiilty
In the event there is a shortage then staff can be swapped from trains to gates, or gates to trains, or even between stations

However there is a significant shortage then certain routes may be operated with Ticket Examiners
A typical example is Glasgow Central, where the Cathcart Circle will operate without Ticket Examiners and they will be placed on to Ayrline services instead

The next issue is where there is a shortage of a "guard" and in most cases this results in the termination of that service or another one

 

[CarterUSM]

A DMU must have a second "person", but there is no such requirement on a EMU although it is preferred
This how the whole argument over DOO came about

Under NatEx there used to be a shortage of Ticket Examiners, there were only just enough to man the trains
Under First there was more emphasis on gate, so in effect there is vastly more flexibiilty
In the event there is a shortage then staff can be swapped from trains to gates, or gates to trains, or even between stations

However there is a significant shortage then certain routes may be operated with Ticket Examiners
A typical example is Glasgow Central, where the Cathcart Circle will operate without Ticket Examiners and they will be placed on to Ayrline services instead

The next issue is where there is a shortage of a "guard" and in most cases this results in the termination of that service or another one

It is not so much that there is a second person on the train as far as passenger emu DOO goes, any passenger DOO must fulfil certain criteria such as a secure radio link with signalman(csr), run over track circuit clock only, and DOO equipment fitted on train/at stations as appropriate amongst other things. Local and national agreements come into it also, for example, the strathclyde manning agreement(SMA) applied to suburban services in the strathclyde area only, this is where the dispute has arose from, as the bathgate service is outwith this area. All scotrail emu services are DOO with the exception of glasgow/edinburgh-North Berwick. But any money they will go DOO if the company get half a chance, wait and see. Also, gateline staff do not go on train anymore as they have been moved from under the auspices of revenue to station staff.