Scotrail omitting other operators' services from timetables

[pokemonsuper9]

If a restaurant expects me to look up its menu online rather than providing a printed copy, then I'll take my custom elsewhere. I'm not a dinosaur but I'm going to draw a line there.

The system actually works pretty well, used one version at Pizza Hut.
No need to ask for a person to come and take your order, you just do (And for the things like drinks, ice cream or salad you don't even need to wait for food to arrive, you just pay for it and go there, no human required).
Maybe give tech a try, someone spent hours making these systems

 

[Starmill]

Not really. The poster timetable will display the LTP timetable and should be good for several months. Engineering alterations should be displayed prominently a couple of weeks in advance. CIS screens display messages to the effect of "Weekend engineering work 6th-7th July, check your journey" which prompts passengers to look at the engineering work poster or ask a member of staff. That's what they do around here, and it seems to work.


Are there no "engineering work" posters put up where you are? Up here even the smallest request stops get them put up by the cleaner when they do their rounds.

This is by far the best way to do it because it means everyone, including people who use enthisast websites and know what's going on inside out, and also people who are less well informed, or outright excluded (e.g. by a disability) are more likely to be made aware of something changing. The same approach is often taken about the upcoming twice-annual change, and that's also noticeably better done by some areas than others.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jul 2024 ==

The system actually works pretty well, used one version at Pizza Hut.
No need to ask for a person to come and take your order, you just do (And for the things like drinks, ice cream or salad you don't even need to wait for food to arrive, you just pay for it and go there, no human required).
Maybe give tech a try, someone spent hours making these systems

I usually do that if it's an option as it speeds ordering. I think what Krokodil was referring to was the situation where the restaurant is still using a pen and a pad to place your order with the kitchen, which requires a waiter, but then also chooses not to bother printing the menu and leaves it up to you to download.

 

[BRX]

Very few other TOCs include other TOCs' services.

They all used to.

A good comparison for, say, the line to Aberdeen would be the North Wales Coast Line (a route with a principle operator but with several other operators providing the overall train frequency)

TfW manage to do it.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

TfW manage to do it.

View attachment 161243

That's a really good timetable (from my perspective)
- Connecting times shown in red
- Minimum station connection times shown
- They even put on the via Altrincham Northern services
- Good notes (see the Chester-Leeds services have a "B" next to "NT", "B" probably means "service continues to Leeds" or similar
The only thing I'd add is lines to create "groups" of stations like Northern do.

 

[BRX]

A relevant article

Printed matters

Thursday 28th April 2022 I had an enjoyable evening last Saturday at The Hawth Theatre in Crawley (Tony Blackburn’s Radio 2 Sounds of the Sixties Tour since you asked – highly recommend…

busandtrainuser.com

Northern have been producing a wonderful timetable booklet showing details of train times, as well as some details about bus times, in Cumbria and the Lake District as well as parts of the Dales and Fells. It’s aim is to encourage passengers to travel by train.

It’s a very useful booklet including information across eight pages about Rover tickets complete with maps to encourage travel on the network.

The good news is it’s being produced again this summer and as a bonus for multi-modal fans includes ten pages of bus timetables too – Stagecoach’s bus routes 555, 559, X4, X5 and X6 will all be there. How useful is that for visitors and tourists to these popular areas? Very. It’s a very useful publication.

I wonder why Northern produce it though? All the same information is available online on their (and Stagecoach’s) website. They could save money and help their environmental credentials by ceasing the production of printed booklets like this, just like some bus companies and almost all other train companies are now doing – you know the ones, generally speaking, those struggling to attract passengers at the moment, but I’m sure they know what they’re doing.


Believe it or not some bus companies continue to produce printed booklets, pamphlets and leaflets giving details of the bus routes they run as well as including maps, timetables and even prices of tickets. It’s strange that these are usually the bus companies doing well to attract passengers on to their buses and areas like Cornwall, the Lake District, areas served by bus companies like Transdev Blazefield, Go North East, Go South Coast, Safeguard, Grant Palmer, Lynx, Ensignbus and many more are seeing the benefit of making it easy for potential (as well as existing) passengers to find out what’s on offer.

Some bus companies even leave printed timetables on display for passengers to pick up.

Some bus companies even put printed timetables inside buses for passengers to pick up.

Some bus companies even leave printed timetables on bus seats for passengers to pick up.

All this information is available on line on their websites but these companies seem to hold the view it’s a good idea to make printed information available too, despite the cost of this and the damage it causes the environment to use paper as explained by certain other bus companies justifying why they don’t produce printed material.

Train companies, which aren’t exactly renowned for being in the vanguard of knowing how to attract passengers on to trains with excellence in information provision despite “our passengers are at the heart of everything we do” being their mantra, are taking this approach to a whole new level if the Department for Transport agrees to their latest proposal.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jul 2024 ==

Also:

The 2014 Invitation to tender document for the Scotrail Franchise

https://www.fofnl.org.uk/archives/scotrail-franchise-itt-4855286-45.pdf

2.11.2.2 Timetables
The Franchisee will be required to produce, and make available, a full passenger services timetable
of all rail services in Scotland in printed form (and other alternative formats), at least 4 weeks in
advance of the timetable commencement. The Franchisee will ensure that all printed timetables are
available or displayed at all stations for passenger use at least 2 weeks prior to the operational date.
Local timetables should be displayed at all stations and must be available on the day of operation.

"All rail services in Scotland"

 

[Krokodil]

The system actually works pretty well, used one version at Pizza Hut.
No need to ask for a person to come and take your order, you just do (And for the things like drinks, ice cream or salad you don't even need to wait for food to arrive, you just pay for it and go there, no human required).
Maybe give tech a try, someone spent hours making these systems

I'm not even talking about ordering online, just about "scan QR code or see our website for the menu". But now you mention it, I quite like having some human interaction in my life.

That's a really good timetable (from my perspective)
- Connecting times shown in red
- Minimum station connection times shown
- They even put on the via Altrincham Northern services
- Good notes (see the Chester-Leeds services have a "B" next to "NT", "B" probably means "service continues to Leeds" or similar
The only thing I'd add is lines to create "groups" of stations like Northern do.

The only observation I'd make is that the connecting times seem to be connections from Manchester, rather than connections from Chester. Someone from North Wales looking at that might think that it takes an awfully long time just to get to Crewe.

 

[route101]

Similar situation in some restaurants, pandemic and after, which moved on from menus to a QR code, where it took half the meal to penetrate it and attempt an order, compared to a few seconds looking at a menu. I think this was meant to be "cool".

Colleague at a meeting in London, going back to his hotel, spent about 15 minutes working through the Uber website somehow, then waiting outside for it, when all the while black cabs were passing outside the door which he could just have put his hand out for.

Yes, that's the problem if you have to download the app. I had same problem in Nandos, was quicker just to go the till and order.

 

[Llandudno]

The only places I use an app to order food and drink are

Wetherspoons if I am on my own as you have to have to specify a table number when you order, which if you order at the bar by which time someone may have grabbed your table

McDonalds if I have my dog with me, you can’t take a pooch inside so you can order on the app and the coffee comes to your selected outside table, one branch even brought a dog bowl with water!

 

[Busman652004]

Dozens of other operator timetable leaflets available at Stirling station this week. Unfortunately they're for Cross Country Standsted, Cambridge and Nottingham to Birmingham and Cardiff and expired on 01 June 2024 so not of any use to any intending passenger.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Nothing to do with privatisation. Look at how reluctant TfL have been to include National Rail services on their maps.

Quite so.
It depends on what the purpose of the map/timetable is supposed to be - is it a useful travel aid or simply corporate willy-waving?
Any map that suggests that the most direct way from Victoria to Clapham Junction is via West Brompton, or from York to Darlington is via Appleby (looking at you, Northern) is not fit for purpose.

Can you imagine a Paris Metro map that omits RER lines C,D and E, half of line B, and two branches of line A? (as they are operated by SNCF rather than RATP)

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Any map that suggests that the most direct way from Victoria to Clapham Junction is via West Brompton, or from York to Darlington is via Appleby (looking at you, Northern) is not fit for purpose.

Northern's map shows the "other TOC" line between the two, Northern's map is for showing their services and I think they've done that perfectly fine in this case.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Northern's map shows the "other TOC" line between the two, Northern's map is for showing their services and I think they've done that perfectly fine in this case.
View attachment 161273

That is a better map than the older one I was thinking of.

 

[eldomtom2]

The system actually works pretty well, used one version at Pizza Hut.
No need to ask for a person to come and take your order, you just do (And for the things like drinks, ice cream or salad you don't even need to wait for food to arrive, you just pay for it and go there, no human required).
Maybe give tech a try, someone spent hours making these systems

I often have to make specific requests for alterations to meals, which tends to not be the sort of thing these apps are good at.

 

[route101]

Certainly disappointing to omit any Cross Country and LNER between Glasgow and Edinburgh. Especially if you are travelling between Motherwell and Edinburgh.

 

[kkong]

Anything bought with a Club50 card is only valid on Scotrail.

That is simply incorrect.

The flat-fare promos are only valid on ScotRail and TransPennine Express.

But the always available 10% or 20% discount on Off-Peak tickets can be used on any operator (best to choose paper ticket for easiest acceptance on operators other than ScotRail).

 

[Buzby]

Certainly disappointing to omit any Cross Country and LNER between Glasgow and Edinburgh. Especially if you are travelling between Motherwell and Edinburgh.

I used to do this journey often and had a choice of going direct (via Carstairs), with 1 change at Bellshill (via Shotts) and 2 changes via Central and Queen Street - the first was always fastest. LNER were never running when I could use them - but their London KX - Stirling service which I did use has been cut back and terminates at Waverley So not a shining example of customer choice!

 

[Hagbard Celine]

ScotRail's website says 'any operator' under FAQs.

The £17 tickets are Scotrail only

£17 Flat Fare terms and conditions

Club 50 £17 Flat Fare Return Terms & Conditions

www.scotrail.co.uk

 

[eoff]

I'm not even talking about ordering online, just about "scan QR code or see our website for the menu". But now you mention it, I quite like having some human interaction in my life.

I walked out of a restaurant in Bristol airport last year because you had to order via QR code at the table and they refused to take orders directly.

 

[SouthStand]

I walked out of a restaurant in Bristol airport last year because you had to order via QR code at the table and they refused to take orders directly.

I bet you still use paper boarding passes?

 

[Struner]

I bet you still use paper boarding passes

& they request customers to use there qr, which give them part of your id,
in turn, they should request to pay using monopoly money

 

[signed]

I bet you still use paper boarding passes?

Not OP, and I don't mind QR codes and stuff, but paper Boarding passes (while they're still around) are just great souvenirs to have (and sometimes can get you out of hairy situations easier, ex. if your exit from the US was mis-recorded and you need to send proof to them).

 

[SouthStand]

Younger people certainly aren't going back to dumb phones 'in droves'. Gen Zers couldn't exist without smartphones now. There are many reasons why dumb phones are still bought in quantity, and a good number of them are nefarious.

Correct.

 

[WAB]

I bet you still use paper boarding passes?

You'd be surprised how many people, young and tech-minded, also hate the online ordering system in some restaurants, even if they accept tech in all other areas of life. It's a red line for them.

 

[Indigo Soup]

You'd be surprised how many people, young and tech-minded, also hate the online ordering system in some restaurants, even if they accept tech in all other areas of life. It's a red line for them.

Electronic tickets and boarding passes make the experience of travel simpler and easier, so are easily accepted as a good thing. That it's cheaper for the operator is neither here nor there. Self-checkout - sometimes via app - makes the experience of shopping easier by reducing the need to queue for a checkout, so is again easily accepted.

Ordering food via a website makes the experience of visiting a restaurant less pleasurable, by making it harder to view the menu as a whole and by removing the option to speak to a server. Even McDonalds and Burger King allow you to go up to the counter and order from a human being, if you so choose, so making it mandatory to use a website in a sit-down restaurant is quite offputting.

 

[eoff]

I bet you still use paper boarding passes?

Is that a statement or a question?
I hedge my bets with a paper boarding card being the primary option, I can produce it in 3 seconds from my coat map pocket at the gate or at security entrance (by which time my phone is zipped into my coat pocket) and I have no concerns that my boarding card will lose signal or run out of battery. I can write the gate number on it and stick the luggage label to the final pass in a journey.

 

[AlbertBeale]

You're right I think BUT the 5% of rail passengers still using paper timetables will be doing so because they aren't able to use other means to browse them. Same thing with ticket offices. Yes they're only used by a minority, but it's a minority that can't purchase tickets any other way. We have an older generation who have never used smartphones or the Internet and we have a younger generation who are increasingly getting rid of their smartphones due to addiction.

But a full timetable (on paper for convenience) gives you different information than looking up one particulate journey at a time on a website does; they serve different needs/purposes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jul 2024 ==

Electronic tickets and boarding passes make the experience of travel simpler and easier, so are easily accepted as a good thing. That it's cheaper for the operator is neither here nor there. Self-checkout - sometimes via app - makes the experience of shopping easier by reducing the need to queue for a checkout, so is again easily accepted.

Ordering food via a website makes the experience of visiting a restaurant less pleasurable, by making it harder to view the menu as a whole and by removing the option to speak to a server. Even McDonalds and Burger King allow you to go up to the counter and order from a human being, if you so choose, so making it mandatory to use a website in a sit-down restaurant is quite offputting.

Re the first two bold bits - you mean you find them easier. Please don't generalise your own preferences into some sort of objective fact.

Re the third one ... why do you want to easily view the menu as a whole?; why do you want to talk to anyone? Why is this, for you, the opposite of your preferences for tickets and shops?

 

[Class83]

It's a bit petty to remove the 4 East Coast and Cross Country services from the Edinburgh-Aberdeen timetable. They always used to be there and depending on the station are either the only remaining express service or a significant part of the service. I think the sleeper also used to be on the end of the timetable, though that requires reservations so could have greater grounds for omission if it was going to require 1 more column for an extra page.

 

[BRX]

The sleepers definitely used to be in there.
And I'm fairly sure shown on timetables with connecting scotrail services.
Of course, CS refuse to sell through tickets.
And Scotrail & CS are now both in the direct control of the Scottish govt.

 

[Sealink]

It's a poor show, but honestly, I would expect nothing less from ScotRail.

With the current reduced timetable, you'd think they'd be going out of their way to highlight LNER/XC/TPE services.