Scotrail rolling stock strategy discussion

[MatthewRead]

Sorry, convert what from Diesel to Battery?

Edit: Nevermind, (I think) you mean create a 'bimode' AT200 with Batteries, rather than with diesel engines.

The engines in the 800's/802's.

 

[alangla]

Removing the perspective of hindsight, what problem do people have with the rolling stock strategy exactly?

HSTs? Wanted by passengers, and ScotRail wanted a proper IC experience. Proven track record of popularity and easy conversion programme promised

Personally I’ve had issues with the HST decision since it was first announced, main ones being
- can’t double up at peak times, so no simple tricks like running 6x170 or 158 in existing paths for things like golf at Leuchars, football games at (or bringing fans from) places like Dundee and Aberdeen or big matches at Murrayfield
- Even with the extensions, Queen Street is pretty tight, so 2 power cars occupying space is wasteful. We’ve now effectively got a 6 car train providing 3 coaches of standard and a part coach of first
- It was blindingly obvious that they’d be horrific on fuel. Admittedly less of a problem at the moment but fuel prices will probably be back where they were a couple of years ago before too long. I’m still amazed that no thought seems to have been given to some sort of eco-mode similar to the 185s so 1 power car could be stopped when the train isn’t late or climbing a hill
- Some of the brain-dead decisions during the introduction like not getting shore power into place before they arrived meaning cold starts aplenty still astound me.
- Rolling electrification has been on the cards politically for a while though admittedly the cost of borrowing when the HST plan was put together was rather higher which might have tipped the balance towards used stock. That flipped to favour new stock a few years ago so would have been a good time to consider abandoning the project in favour of something new (ok, element of hindsight here)

 

[Speed43125]

Personally I’ve had issues with the HST decision since it was first announced, main ones being
- can’t double up at peak times, so no simple tricks like running 6x170 or 158 in existing paths for things like golf at Leuchars, football games at (or bringing fans from) places like Dundee and Aberdeen or big matches at Murrayfield
- Even with the extensions, Queen Street is pretty tight, so 2 power cars occupying space is wasteful. We’ve now effectively got a 6 car train providing 3 coaches of standard and a part coach of first
- It was blindingly obvious that they’d be horrific on fuel. Admittedly less of a problem at the moment but fuel prices will probably be back where they were a couple of years ago before too long. I’m still amazed that no thought seems to have been given to some sort of eco-mode similar to the 185s so 1 power car could be stopped when the train isn’t late or climbing a hill
- Some of the brain-dead decisions during the introduction like not getting shore power into place before they arrived meaning cold starts aplenty still astound me.
- Rolling electrification has been on the cards politically for a while though admittedly the cost of borrowing when the HST plan was put together was rather higher which might have tipped the balance towards used stock. That flipped to favour new stock a few years ago so would have been a good time to consider abandoning the project in favour of something new (ok, element of hindsight here)

Regarding the first point, there's little stopping them running with more carriages given these capacity uplifts will be at known times, especially as most big events are centered around the weekend where they will have spare train sets.
Your 6 car train comment seems a little misleading to me. If we count the PCs and Buffet sections as dead space for a 2+4, that's admittedly only a 1/2 car difference, but that's providing more seating in first and around the same in standard as the previous shorter trains that ran; single 170 sets.
Yes, 6x170, especially with an SPT unit or two will have more standard seats more than the 4 Mk.3 TSOs in a 2+5, but you get a lot more first and the environment travellers said they preferred. I agree though you are down up to 100 seats.
Your other points are understandable, though I'm not sure they're all directly down to the strategy at the time.

 

[Energy]

Surprised no one has mentioned the order of 385s over more 380s in this thread yet, according to other threads Abellio were considering ordering some for the Netherlands but this order never happened. However this theory sounds a little far fetched as the trains for the NL would have to be still quite different, the more reasonable one is Hitachi offered a good deal as they wanted to get into UK stock which wasn't just high speed.

 

[alangla]

Regarding the first point, there's little stopping them running with more carriages given these capacity uplifts will be at known times, especially as most big events are centered around the weekend where they will have spare train sets.
Your 6 car train comment seems a little misleading to me. If we count the PCs and Buffet sections as dead space for a 2+4, that's admittedly only a 1/2 car difference, but that's providing more seating in first and around the same in standard as the previous shorter trains that ran; single 170 sets.
Yes, 6x170, especially with an SPT unit or two will have more standard seats more than the 4 Mk.3 TSOs in a 2+5, but you get a lot more first and the environment travellers said they preferred. I agree though you are down up to 100 seats.
Your other points are understandable, though I'm not sure they're all directly down to the strategy at the time.

It was more that with units you could provide a significant capacity uplift for a major event simply by coupling another one on (ok, maybe some replatforming too), with HSTs you’re looking at either having to substitute the whole set for a doubled up unit or you need to find additional crews & paths to operate additional services, which isn’t always straightforward.

 

[Speed43125]

It was more that with units you could provide a significant capacity uplift for a major event simply by coupling another one on (ok, maybe some replatforming too), with HSTs you’re looking at either having to substitute the whole set for a doubled up unit or you need to find additional crews & paths to operate additional services, which isn’t always straightforward.

To be honest, my understanding was they made use of the 68s and Mk.2s when needing huge uplifts in capacity for events. Are there many events where people will swamp an I7C service? would it not be more local trains that get crowded?

 

[alangla]

To be honest, my understanding was they made use of the 68s and Mk.2s when needing huge uplifts in capacity for events. Are there many events where people will swamp an I7C service? would it not be more local trains that get crowded?

Basically the examples I gave- Golf in Fife (St. Andrews or Kingsbarns, so Leuchars), Gleneagles or Carnoustie, football at Hampden (Queen Street) involving Dundee, Aberdeen or Inverness teams and rugby at Murrayfield (Haymarket). Remember the Mk2s have been withdrawn and they don’t hire stuff in for anything but the biggest events (golf basically). No doubt a bit of strategic strengthening on the Aberdeen to Edinburgh trains during August for the festival as well. It actually happens a lot & is something ScotRail have always been pretty good at